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[Flamewielder]

EDIT for Top of Page Samara!
Original art by http://dolmheon.deviantart.com/
http://browse.devian...Samara#/d2w4jxf

Xilizhra wrote...
With Shepard having tried to pursue anything, or not?

I don't think it would influence Samara either way: Shep either tries something and she shies away, not feeling able to commit to anything beyond friendship, or Shep simply reciprocates her offer of friendship with the understanding she may soon leave on her own path but will return if Shep asks.

Either way, Samara doesn't feel like getting involved. She's mourning a daugther, perhaps even ponders if she did the right thing... Not merely for the Code, but for her remaining daughters. Not exactly something that puts you in a romantic mood.

It doesn't sound like the crew will be with Shep at the start of ME3. The Normandy may have spent months being pulled apart in an Alliance shipyard above Earth, Shep will likely have been kept grounded (or jailed) the whole time for a full, in-depth debrief...

Given Admiral Hackett's heads-up at the end of Arrival, I think Shep will have made sure he left Samara somewhere she could easily secure passage wherever she needed to go before the Alliance could try to incarcerate and debrief her (and we know that wouldn't go well, don't we)... Shep would likely do the same with all his alien companions and probably some humans as well (Zaeed's too old for this debrief nonsense... and he tends to ramble anyways )

So my feeling is Samara's feelings will remain unchanged, at least until the start of ME3.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 16 août 2011 - 03:59 .

[Xilizhra]

I did forget about the Morinth thing. Damn you, timing.

Hm. What would make Samara go back to Shepard? Would anything do so aside from just duty?

[Flamewielder]

Bringing her back into the squad is simple enough: a friendly request from a paragon Shep would suffice... Even more interesting would be for Samara to call upon Shepard to resolve a delicate situation where the Code would force her into doing something she feels would be needlessly harsh. A "Serve the Idea and not the Word of the Code" type of thing.

Romantically, Samara would have to be convinced that Shep isn't hoping for anything she can't offer. That's of course assuming they are morally compatible. Her being a Justicar or not (by "retireing" I suppose...) is not really what's keeping her from getting involved with someone. Life expectancy is probably not an issue, as Liara explains in ME1: most asari appear comfortable with the fact most of their mates die before them.

She'd also have to make her peace with the death of Mirala, or at least take time to mourn in her own way.

[Xilizhra]

What would it be that Samara couldn't offer?

[Flamewielder]

The Oath of Solitude prohibits her from having a family, which is the first big decision any couple has to consider. Samara may feel it would be cruel to deprive a young, healthy human the opportunity to ever have children. Even if Shep decided to adopt, Samara cannot be a parent (surrogate, adoptive or biological).

The Code is harsh and dispassionate. A paragon Shep is allowed to act according to his/her conscience, while Samara conscience is the Code. It's gotta be hard to make a relationship fly in the long term under these conditions, unless Shep subsumed him/herself to the Code.

Successful relationships are all about compromise on both sides. A Shep+Samara relationship can't help being biased in that aspect. Unless we're merely talking about a "roll in the hay"...

[Xilizhra]

I'm unsure about how restrictive all that is. For one thing, I doubt Samara would presume to instruct Shepard on what she should feel about having children, given Samara's... questionable time as a parent. As for the Code... that binds Samara, not Shepard. Samara could, in theory, go into a permanent Oath of Subsumation, and if not, well, we'll need more details on the Code to determine anything about that.

And that's assuming Samara stays a justicar. The only reason she took up the path in the first place is to kill Morinth, and I'm not certain if it's totally psychologically healthy in the first place...

[Flamewielder]

Samara's about 60-70 years old in human terms. Shep is around 30. Shep may still have children, which Samara cannot. Her outlook may be that she has no business involving herself with someone half her age, given that she's no longer at that stage in her life. Samara keeps her reasons to herself, so we may only speculate... but had it been easy for her, she'd have gone for it (all the other LI's certainly do, if offered the chance). As things are, she's attracted, yet deliberately chooses to walk away. The significant age difference can certainly be one of the reasons she does.

[PauseforEffect]

Thanks for the help Flamewielder. Am still trying to find an image to pick from, so not sure yet.
I had thought the reason that Samara refused a relationship was out of a sense of atonement. Because her daughters will never have a family that Samara knew nor a future of their own choosing, she's denying herself any form of personal happiness as well since she's responsible for their misery. Yes, part of her reason of becoming a Justicar was to stop Morinth, but was it also to try to do something right that she didn't trust herself to decide personally?
Can't find a previous post asking this, but does anyone have any thoughts as to what might have happened to Samara's life partner? Did she die before Samara found out her children were Ardat-Yakshi?
Stop me if I'm rambling

[Xilizhra]

Samara's about 60-70 years old in human terms. Shep is around 30. Shep may still have children, which Samara cannot. Her outlook may be that she has no business involving herself with someone half her age, given that she's no longer at that stage in her life. Samara keeps her reasons to herself, so we may only speculate... but had it been easy for her, she'd have gone for it (all the other LI's certainly do, if offered the chance). As things are, she's attracted, yet deliberately chooses to walk away. The significant age difference can certainly be one of the reasons she does.

I admit that I'd be more accepting of this if we received any information on the subject whatsoever; I'm not even certain that Samara's no longer fertile. We don't get information on that either; the Matron stage is when most of them have children, but it's never been said that Maidens and Matriarchs can't.

I had thought the reason that Samara refused a relationship was out of a sense of atonement. Because her daughters will never have a family that Samara knew nor a future of their own choosing, she's denying herself any form of personal happiness as well since she's responsible for their misery.

If I could find a word for this other than "stupid," I would, but... would her daughters really thank her for harming herself in a way that doesn't benefit them at all? It's utterly useless.

I don't know why I'm being so vehement about this when I already have Liara. Maybe it's just because I'd love to see how this would play out...

[Flamewielder]

@Primal, no, you're not rambling. You may enjoy reading through the ME2 Samara thread, though, as people discussed these ideas. Samara's sense of guilt may not be about merely birthing 3 potentially lethal A-Y children, but rather about something she allowed Morinth to do.

Imagine that, once the diagnosis was announced, Samara attemped to flee with her daughters; perhaps she thought she could offer them something better than a 1000-year lifetime in a cloister... who knows.

If, by deciding to flee rather than surrendering her children to whatever asylum keeps dangerous A-Y, Samara allowed Morinth to kill (intentionally or otherwise) her first victim... her sense of guilt would be quite justified. What if Morinth herself killed her own "dad" without meaning to? Wouldn't Samara regret not having done what asari society feels is the only thing that can be done: isolate dangerous to protect society at large from individuals litterally starved for empathic bonding? Could Samara be blaming herself for the death of her mate at her own daughter's hand? We don't know...

@ Zil:

I'm not explaining myself properly: Samara may or may not be able to have biological children: it's not what's driving her decision not to pursue a relationship with Shep. The Oath of Solitude has a Justicar forsake family and worldly posessions, probably for life (if Samara's comment about not dying a peaceful death are an indication). Shepard, on the other hand, may want some one day. Samara cannot be a parent to a child, be it her own or adopted. That's a pretty big stumbling block for any relationship.

[Xilizhra]

What if Morinth herself killed her own "dad" without meaning to?

Hm. I do wonder what circumstances would lead to that.

I'm not explaining myself properly: Samara may or may not be able to have biological children: it's not what's driving her decision not to pursue a relationship with Shep. The Oath of Solitude has a Justicar forsake family and worldly posessions, probably for life (if Samara's comment about not dying a peaceful death are an indication). Shepard, on the other hand, may want some one day. Samara cannot be a parent to a child, be it her own or adopted. That's a pretty big stumbling block for any relationship.

Reasonable, but that's really the sort of thing that two people should actually discuss rather than one person dodging the issue entirely.

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...
Reasonable, but that's really the sort of thing that two people should actually discuss rather than one person dodging the issue entirely.

I agree, but 400 years walking the solitary path of a Justicar may have allowed Samara's relationship skills to rust somewhat... She may condescend to Shep without realizing she is.

Whatever her reasons, she chose not to act upon her attraction towards Shep. Perhaps she didn't feel she was entitled to it. My guess is she will have to deal with her guilt/regrets over her slaying of Morinth and her abandonment of her other daughters. While asari society at large may laud her dedication and sacrifice &praise her for "doing the right thing", I'm sure Samara will struggle with her conscience for some time yet.

Some people spend their whole life coming to terms wth their personnal issues. Samara prides herself on carrying her own burdens which. while admirable in some regard, prevents her from admitting/accepting help or solace. It's well shown in her refusal of Shep's pity.

[tmoney420]

i picked mornith on my full paragon version of all things lol just bc i think enhanced dominate is the most useful power i wonder how that will effect my me3 game if i cant reqruit justicars now or something...

[Flamewielder]

Perhaps it's one reason NOT to include Samara (or Morinth) in ME3 at all: Morinth has no reason to help out beyond hangin' out with Shep for the lulz. She tends to move around quite a bit, to keep Justicars off her trail. Staying with Shep too long runs the risk of eventually blowing her false identity as her Mother.

Unlike the VS, who both have similar motivation to stay and help, the mother-daughter pair have very different motivations. Morinth cannot have children, cannot sustain a true emotional bond with anyone without eventually workin'-up an appetite... will eventually die of old age at 1000+ or perhaps from psychic withdrawal once the Reapers have reaped all of her remaining potential prey.

To paraphrase the late Jim Morrisson: "Morinth only wants to get her kicks before the whole ****house goes up in flame." She has no emotional bond with the galaxy Shep's trying to save; she's got no stake in it. She'll do what she does best: escape and survive (and probably feed). And perhaps that is motivation enough to hang around with Shep after all: her hedonistic-nihilistic outlook may cause to stick around simply because of the thrill of hunting and killing whatever mooks Shep will have to face to save the day...

[Xilizhra]

If Morinth does stay, I really hope she's fleshed out more than she was in ME2...

[S Seraff]

What I would like to have sen more of in ME2 is Samara noting when an action She takes in violation of the Code. ME3 offers the option of her actively opposing Shep when choices Shep makes violate the Code - I see the opportunity for a great RPG mission with her, where Shep has to decide between the "right" decision which would result in having to fight Samara, or the "wrong" one to preserve the relationship. Or something like. I really like Samara, she is my preferred squadmate, but it's easy to forget that her moral system is rigid and not completely in line with (every) Shepard. I hope Bioware leverages this in ME3

[Flamewielder]

Indeed. Although the Oath of Subsummation may be invoked to "smooth over" any conflict... in which case we'll be dissappointed.

It could be an "Anders-like" confrontation, where the player has the option of agreeing or disaggreeing violently) with Samara/Morinth. The universe of Dragon Age is all grey tones with very few black or white options. ME1 started off as a pretty simplistic, squeaky clean bIack & white universe, before ME2 came along and greyed it out.

Sure, Isabella is the classic swashbuckling carousing seafarer. She's also a thief and a pirate who has no objection to killing when she has to to get what she wants. It mostly boils down to wether your Hawke considers her a friend or a rival.

Samara is a Justicar and adheres to a strict Code that rigidly enforces justice at the expense of compassion; it's bound to cause sparks with just about any Shep unless considers her a friend and goes out of his/her way to accomodate the Code.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Flamewielder wrote...
Samara is a Justicar and adheres to a strict Code that rigidly enforces justice at the expense of compassion; it's bound to cause sparks with just about any Shep unless considers her a friend and goes out of his/her way to accomodate the Code.

As much as I loved Samara. I wish Shepard would have the option to discuss the code with her more. Possibly argueing against it without having Shepard sound like an ass.

[whywhywhywhy]

Flamewielder wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Reasonable, but that's really the sort of thing that two people should actually discuss rather than one person dodging the issue entirely.

I agree, but 400 years walking the solitary path of a Justicar may have allowed Samara's relationship skills to rust somewhat... She may condescend to Shep without realizing she is.

Whatever her reasons, she chose not to act upon her attraction towards Shep. Perhaps she didn't feel she was entitled to it. My guess is she will have to deal with her guilt/regrets over her slaying of Morinth and her abandonment of her other daughters. While asari society at large may laud her dedication and sacrifice &praise her for "doing the right thing", I'm sure Samara will struggle with her conscience for some time yet.

Some people spend their whole life coming to terms wth their personnal issues. Samara prides herself on carrying her own burdens which. while admirable in some regard, prevents her from admitting/accepting help or solace. It's well shown in her refusal of Shep's pity.

I think this post gets it most right imo.  Bolded parts that are pretty sound.

[Arppis]

SennenScale wrote...

I really love Samara.

Her elegance, her air of mystery, her strength of will, her discipline and dedication...the tragedy between her and her family, all of it make her an interesting character.

This. Too bad she wasn't a love interest, but that just made her stand out more I guess. I wish it could change in ME3.

[Kudara]

Hello everyone, just wanted to let people know I'm still around. My attention's just been split between my Shep/Samara fanfic and some written roleplaying as a few asari characters over at MEU.

I do need to get back into reading this more often these days though

Flame, York and all good to see your still here.

Modifié par Kudara, 20 août 2011 - 05:05 .

[One of the Legion]

I hope they don't just make her a love interest like every other female character in the game.

[Flamewielder]

One of the Legion wrote...

I hope they don't just make her a love interest like every other female character in the game.

That's pretty much the conscensus amongst fans of Samara; either a different style of romance, or no romance at all.

Even though Samara felt some attraction towards Shep, she decided not to pursue it for reasons of her own. A Samara romance would require some plausible motivation to reconsider her decision. Samara's not looking for a hero, a father figure or a strong silent type. But she would welcome some kind of companionship and such companionship might eventually involve some degree of intimacy. Asari being long-lived, I'd expect them to take a longer view of such things. Given 10 years of adventuring together, sharing joys and sorrows, I'm sure Samara would allow herself some degree of romantic solace with Shep.

[Flamewielder]

Especially if Shep became adept at using the Code to manipulate Samara towards just, yet still compassionate outcomes. I'm sure Samara would appreciate such cleverness and love Shep for it.