2338 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

The slight problem is: How can ME3 take place over ten years?

[Flamewielder]

That's why I believe Samara shouldn't have a sudden change of heart in ME3 and fall for Shep after turning him/her down a mere couple of months before.

EDIT for top of page Samara
"Love is not about looking at each other, but rather about looking in the same direction."

Modifié par Flamewielder, 22 août 2011 - 02:39 .

[MaskedAffection]

Samara doesn't get enough love, come on.. Who doesn't pick her for the The Long Walk...

[mauro2222]

Yay! My favourite asari finally gets the love she needs

[Flamewielder]

yorkj86 wrote...
Epilogue, maybe. If you attempted to romance Samara, in ME2, if you had no romance by the end of ME3, and if something else, in ME3, the epilogue mentions that Shepard and Samara got closer, leaving it vague. I say "something else, in ME3," because another "trigger" is needed, as it isn't necessarily the case that the player wants to romance Samara, after getting turned down by her, in ME2.

A far better soltion, in my opinion, as the Epilogue can be set in the future; if a Samara-Shep romance is in the cards in 10 years, some delightful hints of growing affection can be incorporated in some cut-scenes: body language, knowing smiles, showing perhaps a bit more protectiveness than usual in combat situations (and waving it off as merely following her Code), etc...

In ME3 proper, you should only see signs that Samara is merely starting to reconsider, perhaps as part of going through her own grieving process. As we know, she spent 400 years hunting Morinth and likely rationalized the inevitable outcome in her mind long before Morinth's death (the Code helped her to do so).

Making her emotional peace with Morinth's death, however, likely only started AFTER; as killing her own daughter was obviously something she couldn't bear to contemplate on an emotional level (hence her decision to join the Justicars and use the Code to rationalize the necessity of it).

Freed of her painful duty, will Samara achieve some measure of emotional peace before the end? Will that small measure of peace include Shepard's star in her twilight years' sky? These questions deserve further development...

[Xilizhra]

Freed of her painful duty, will Samara achieve some measure of emotional peace before the end? Will that small measure of peace include Shepard's star in her twilight years' sky? These questions deserve further development.

I am curious about one phrase there: would Samara's age really be any kind of stumbling block? She's still likely to outlive Shepard if neither one gets killed in combat.

[Dean_the_Young]

Frankly, Samara leaving the Justicars would be a huge disservice for her character, starting with it being a tactic admission that she fixated hundreds of years of her life to an absolutist ideology in order to get away with socially accepted murder of her runaway daughter.

If killing Morinth were to be the key to 'free her of her painful duty', and Morinth was the reason she joined the Justicars, the centuries of Justicar oaths and responsibilities were never anything but a smokescreen to find and kill Morinth. That's like joining the CIA to kill your runaway wife: it ain't commendable in the least.

[Flamewielder]

Oh, I think she'll outlive Shep by a century or two. The biological age is not really the issue, but rather the mindset one develops as we age. Asari are apparently comfortable with the idea they'll outlive most alien mates (except a krogan, perhaps).

When i look at age, I look more at the state of mind that usually accompanies age. Experience, knowledge of one's progress on the road of life... that sort of thing. We know comparatively little about the mindset of multicentenarian asari, yet I would expect them to share somewhat of a human centenarian's outlook on life, relationships, etc...

Whatever her reasons, Samara turned down the offered romance in ME2 in spite of her apparent attraction. Her mind/heart was simply not into it at that point, and given the dramatic conclusion to her search for Morinth, that shouldn't surprise anyone.

[Xilizhra]

And exactly what effects would the age thing have re. Shepard?

[Flamewielder]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Frankly, Samara leaving the Justicars would be a huge disservice for her character, starting with it being a tactic admission that she fixated hundreds of years of her life to an absolutist ideology in order to get away with socially accepted murder of her runaway daughter.

I agree; her character would suffer from it.

If killing Morinth were to be the key to 'free her of her painful duty', and Morinth was the reason she joined the Justicars, the centuries of Justicar oaths and responsibilities were never anything but a smokescreen to find and kill Morinth. That's like joining the CIA to kill your runaway wife: it ain't commendable in the least.

Or more precisely: becoming an executionner to be the one to administer the death sentence to your serial-killing runaway wife...

[Dean_the_Young]

Flamewielder wrote...

If killing Morinth were to be the key to 'free her of her painful duty', and Morinth was the reason she joined the Justicars, the centuries of Justicar oaths and responsibilities were never anything but a smokescreen to find and kill Morinth. That's like joining the CIA to kill your runaway wife: it ain't commendable in the least.

Or more precisely: becoming an executionner to be the one to administer the death sentence to your serial-killing runaway wife...

Not more precisely. Less: the Justicar order is not analogous to executioners (a job which the sole duty is to kill people conficted and sentenced). The Justicar Order was a means for Samara to carry about her own self-assumed mission, not a job that required her to do it.

Samara joined the Justicars because she wanted to chase down and kill Morinth. She is not chasing down Morinth to kill her because she is a Justicar. Cause, means, and effect.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 août 2011 - 05:52 .

[Flamewielder]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not more precisely. Less: the Justicar order is not analogous to executioners (a job which the sole duty is to kill people conficted and sentenced). The Justicar Order was a means for Samara to carry about her own self-assumed mission, not a job that required her to do it.

Samara joined the Justicars because she wanted to chase down and kill Morinth. She is not chasing down Morinth to kill her because she is a Justicar.

I agree that Samara must have had her mind set on killing Morinth prior to joining. But it's also inaccurate to state that the job didn't require it: any random Justicar would have been compelled to kill Morinth too, according to the basic tenets of the Code. Even Aria, who's not exactly a paragon of virtue, refers to Morinth a "that filthy creature". Dangerous A-Y who refuse to accept life-long confinement are hunted down and killed by Justicars (Codex reference). It is unclear if Justicars do so on their own initiative or if they are formally asked to do so by asari authorities; the bottom line is: the asari consider potentially dangerous A-Y runaways as potential serial-killers that must be reigned-in or killed for the greater good of society. Humans manage dangerous individuals through laws that are a compromise between ethical ideals and practicality, to achieve the same result: we either lock-up serial-killers for life, or we execute them. Different process, same final outcome. We simply don't condone vigilanteism to achieve it.

Given that runaway A-Y's may not necessarily have killed or be addicted to killing, "normal" law-enforcement agencies possibly only bother with the formally convicted murderous ones. It's even possible Justicars who discover potentially dangerous runaway A-Y may judge them on a case-by-case basis... no way to know, and I doubt the writer bothered to explore the ethical ramifications.

Just like in Dragon Age, siding with either Mother or Daughter is not an entirely black or white decision. You can raise objections for either choice.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 23 août 2011 - 10:25 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Any random Justicar would have been compelled to kill Morinth if they came across her, but no Justicar is or was obligated to do so. Samara's already noted on a number of occassions that while Justicars are bound to face the Code-defined injustices they see, they are not obligated to pursue them. Samara also already noted that the Code obligates only temporary cooperation with authorities before the Justicar can do as they deem necessary.

Samara's quest to kill Morinth was not an obligation of the Justicars by any facet of the Justicars we have yet to come across.

[Sepewrath]

Flamewielder wrote...

That's why I believe Samara shouldn't have a sudden change of heart in ME3 and fall for Shep after turning him/her down a mere couple of months before

You underestimate Shepard's new powers But seriously on the love boat SR2, if she's around, she will definitely be an LI now.

[S Seraff]

after all, samara became a justicar only to find and kill morinth right? if morinth hadnt become so dangerous she would have chosen a different path. maybe a part of her LIKED being under the oath of subsumation, and taking a break from herself; and with morinth gone her (original) reason for being a justicar is gone too; and played right her feelings for shep are strong; and the galaxy looks to end. I fully believe that samara LIKES being a justicar too, defines herself by that role and sees the importance of it. on the other hand, she's been other things, as well. Samara is herself, and justicar is just her most recent role.

anyway, i can see how the writers might make it possible to sort of free herself from "an old habit, a chapter that can end." i think it would be nice to have that dialogue route in there; Samara is a pretty compelling LI for the right shep

[whywhywhywhy]

Flamewielder wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...
Epilogue, maybe. If you attempted to romance Samara, in ME2, if you had no romance by the end of ME3, and if something else, in ME3, the epilogue mentions that Shepard and Samara got closer, leaving it vague. I say "something else, in ME3," because another "trigger" is needed, as it isn't necessarily the case that the player wants to romance Samara, after getting turned down by her, in ME2.

A far better soltion, in my opinion, as the Epilogue can be set in the future; if a Samara-Shep romance is in the cards in 10 years, some delightful hints of growing affection can be incorporated in some cut-scenes: body language, knowing smiles, showing perhaps a bit more protectiveness than usual in combat situations (and waving it off as merely following her Code), etc...

In ME3 proper, you should only see signs that Samara is merely starting to reconsider, perhaps as part of going through her own grieving process. As we know, she spent 400 years hunting Morinth and likely rationalized the inevitable outcome in her mind long before Morinth's death (the Code helped her to do so).

Making her emotional peace with Morinth's death, however, likely only started AFTER; as killing her own daughter was obviously something she couldn't bear to contemplate on an emotional level (hence her decision to join the Justicars and use the Code to rationalize the necessity of it).

Freed of her painful duty, will Samara achieve some measure of emotional peace before the end? Will that small measure of peace include Shepard's star in her twilight years' sky? These questions deserve further development...

I like it but 10 years is too long, maybe 1 - 4 years.

[whywhywhywhy]

Sepewrath wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...

That's why I believe Samara shouldn't have a sudden change of heart in ME3 and fall for Shep after turning him/her down a mere couple of months before

You underestimate Shepard's new powers But seriously on the love boat SR2, if she's around, she will definitely be an LI now.

One could only hope.

[Dean_the_Young]

yorkj86 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Any random Justicar would have been compelled to kill Morinth if they came across her, but no Justicar is or was obligated to do so. Samara's already noted on a number of occassions that while Justicars are bound to face the Code-defined injustices they see, they are not obligated to pursue them. Samara also already noted that the Code obligates only temporary cooperation with authorities before the Justicar can do as they deem necessary.

Samara's quest to kill Morinth was not an obligation of the Justicars by any facet of the Justicars we have yet to come across.

When is that said?

Both Renegade Shepards and on the subject of Nihlus.

That would indicate that Justicars have flexibility in the cases they choose to pursue.

Samara's history and depiction of Justicars is that while they universally face injustices they see infront of them (she won't show quarter to Rene!Shepard if they meet again in the future), they don't have to pusue any particular one that's away from them (she doesn't have to pusue Shepard... or so many a Samara supporter has argued to me).

It's not a matter of 'I don't have to', but 'it wasn't in my immediate vicinity.'

  Furthermore, we don't know the method used by Justicars for assigning "cases."

We have no reason to believe the Justicars are 'assigned' cases at all. Samara wasn't assigned to track Morinth: she took it. Likewise, she makes note that SHE may choose to go to Omega or Tuchanka afterwards, not that she would be assigned to. Justicar cooperation with actual legal authorities is a temporary aspect of the Code. And the Asari government does not run or manage the Justicars.

The Justicars are described to us as wanderers: they correct problems they come across, but any particular mission to follow is up to them (Samara's choice of mission for Morinth, her choices after ME2). They have no strict heirarchy as such.

Wouldn't people be mistaken, in saying that Samara would be forced by her duties to pursue Shepard for things he did in ME2, if she can find a reason to "look the other way"?  Namely, he's the only person doing anything about the Reapers.  Sounds like reason enough to me.

You misinterpret. Justicars do not 'look the other way', especially not for 'greater good' arguments. But if someone is not in their 'sight' they do not have to track it down past a certain point: Samara's history with Nihlus and her admission to Renegade Shepard show this prioritization.

If Shepard has done something the Code finds unacceptable, she admits that she would have fought him immediately (had she known), and will fight him again (if they meet in the future, knowing what she knows). She does not have to pursue him immediately post-end (her implication that, for the sake of their friendship, they will not meet again), and she has discretion in chasing down evils to be righted (rather than pursue Nihlus, Samara went back to chasing down Morinth: likewise, rather than chasing Shepard Samara can go to Tuchanka or Omega).

[Arppis]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Samara chase down Morinth purely to absolve herself of the guilt she felt for birthing her in the first place. As a mother she's a terrible person. No wonder Morinth hated her so much. Being killed by her at the end was better than she deserved.

That's one of the reasons. But you know why she isn't a terrible person? She did something about the plague called Morith. She was able to put her feelings aside for the killing blow.

"But she is her daughter" -is more the reason why she should be the one hunting her. Morith would just kill and kill and kill. Someone has to stop her. It's highly unlikely she would stop doing that. And she should be punished for her crimes.

Atleast the killing of all these innocent people will stop that way.

[Lotus72]

Well, at least something seem to be happening with/around Samara in ME3:

Quote: All squad mates will get their story and closure for ME3 even if they might not be a permanent squad member.

quoted from GamesCom report: http://www.giantbomb...2011/35-510677/

[Raizo]

Don't get me wrong, Samara is one of my favourite ME2 squad members and I would love to have her back in ME3 on a permanent basis but last time I checked the her storyline in more or less received full closure in ME2, I can't think of any unfinished business that she may have with Shepard or his crew.

Having said that I do feel that a character with her sense of justice would not just sit back and watch the Reapers exterminate all life in the Galaxy without wanting to doing something, she already knows about Shepard's mission to stop the Reapers, by all rights she should be one of the very first characters to join him.