2338 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Golden Owl wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Taritu wrote...

Remember the mother whose daughter Morinth killed? Samara did what she had to do. Morinth was a serial killer. If she would ignore that because she was a "mother" Samara would be a monster.

I never liked Shep's line with the mother, "It's alright, we have all lost someone"...he doesn't get it and I cringe...Samara does a perfect save though with "I have lost a daughter also"...I felt Samara's dialog.

Yes, Samara did do what she had to do.

Strictly speaking, there's no reason why Shepard couldn't know the pain of losing family before hand. Or even a child: there's more than enough empty backstory for the player to fill in while role playing.

But no Shepard is a stranger to loss.

As a mother myself, I can assure you the loss of one's own child would be a whole new level...there's no comparison...Sheps line rings loud and clear of 'he dousn't get it'....Though I am okay with that, he wouldn't get it, still makes me cringe at his blunder regardless.

I think you missed the point:

Shepard can well have already lost a child, if the player wishes to roleplay that. It can still be a piece of fill-in backstory.

[Dean_the_Young]

Flamewielder wrote...

Yeah... I remember how your total lightside points determined how "glowing" your character looked on the character screen... Paragon isn't lightside, however.

Although I don't exactly share the same view of the Code as Dean, I agree that it would be an insurmountable obstacle to Samara becoming a mother-figure for Jack.

That being said, Samara's original motivation to join the Order being gone, it isn't impossible she'd consider a change of path. Could she develop enough of a shine towards Jack that she'd consider "retiring"? Would mentoring a young human biotic prodigy be enough to salve Samara's loss? Nothing could save Morinth from her fate, but Jack's yet to be written.

If she can't even be bothered to be a mother to her own children locked away, or be inclined to step down from a Justicar for any of the trillions of orphans and other people with terrible pasts, and if she's never even given a hint that she wants to quit while giving very many that she intends to continue, why would she ever do so for Jack? When, again, in doing so she wouldn't even be bothering to address her own children who are still alive?

And why on earth would Jack want her to? Jack doesn't want a paternalistic figure either.

I really, really don't get why anyone things such a thing would either be in character or even possible. Samara's a 'good' Justicar but a bad mother. Jack doesn't want a mother and is even worse with moral absolutism.

You'd be better off writing a Mordin/Grunt fic in which Mordin tries to 'civilize' Grunt into a gentle, caring Krogan who recites poetry and takes a blue collar job.

[S Seraff]

do we know how good a mother she is to her other children? why do you think she's a bad mother?
i think that under it all jack wants to feel loved. the Samara that only became a Justicar as a last resort after all other strategies with Morinth had failed, would I think be very patient with Jack - if that Samara was allowed to come to the surface again, free from the Code.

what i'm saying is I see a real plot possibility there, but it's not as likely as Samara staying a Justicar and focusing all her attention on the Reapers (and Omega, right?).

[Dean_the_Young]

S Seraff wrote...

do we know how good a mother she is to her other children? why do you think she's a bad mother?

She ran off to join a moral absolutist pseudo-cult of vigilantes and then spent the next 300 years as a deontological zealot so that she could perform a socially-acceptable execution of her runaway daughter... when she had others still alive and effectively entombed. Her priorities might be a bit skewed from 'motherhood.'

A bit harsh? Sure. I'm the critical viewpoint of Samara who finds little about her choices or her views admirable or even respectable. And no, she doesn't get points for being a good mother from her primary backstory.

i think that under it all jack wants to feel loved. the Samara that only became a Justicar as a last resort after all other strategies with Morinth had failed, would I think be very patient with Jack - if that Samara was allowed to come to the surface again, free from the Code.

Samara is patient, but she isn't tolerant and she doesn't put family first. Jack doesn't want love, but tolerance and trust that would never be betrayed.

One is a deontologist who spent centuries trying to kill a daughter who betrayed her expectations. The other is someone who wants unconditional trust and is rather than antithesis to deontological ethics. There's something of a slight familial incompatibility there. Jack and Morinth would hit it off better.

what i'm saying is I see a real plot possibility there, but it's not as likely as Samara staying a Justicar and focusing all her attention on the Reapers (and Omega, right?).

You see a real plot possibility in a character quitting her life-time crusade, abandoning her future intents and plans, and becoming a mother figure to a person she has zero dialogue with in order to fulfill a never-expressed or indicated mothering-complex? Even as she has other, living, daughters she hasn't spent time with for centuries?

Really?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 septembre 2011 - 09:27 .

[S Seraff]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

S Seraff wrote...

do we know how good a mother she is to her other children? why do you think she's a bad mother?

She ran off to join a moral absolutist pseudo-cult of vigilantes and then spent the next 300 years as a deontological zealot so that she could perform a socially-acceptable execution of her runaway daughter... when she had others still alive and effectively entombed. Her priorities might be a bit skewed from 'motherhood.'

A bit harsh? Sure. I'm the critical viewpoint of Samara who finds little about her choices or her views admirable or even respectable. And no, she doesn't get points for being a good mother from her primary backstory.

i think that under it all jack wants to feel loved. the Samara that only became a Justicar as a last resort after all other strategies with Morinth had failed, would I think be very patient with Jack - if that Samara was allowed to come to the surface again, free from the Code.

Samara is patient, but she isn't tolerant and she doesn't put family first. Jack doesn't want love, but tolerance and trust that would never be betrayed.

One is a deontologist who spent centuries trying to kill a daughter who betrayed her expectations. The other is someone who wants unconditional trust and is rather than antithesis to deontological ethics. There's something of a slight familial incompatibility there. Jack and Morinth would hit it off better.

what i'm saying is I see a real plot possibility there, but it's not as likely as Samara staying a Justicar and focusing all her attention on the Reapers (and Omega, right?).

You see a real plot possibility in a character quitting her life-time crusade, abandoning her future intents and plans, and becoming a mother figure to a person she has zero dialogue with in order to fulfill a never-expressed or indicated mothering-complex? Even as she has other, living, daughters she hasn't spent time with for centuries?

Really?

Dean, you're getting fiesty, slow down
The quick answer is yes I do.  samara hunted morinth because of the danger she posed to others.she put the safety of the public ahead of her love for her daughter. there is nobility in that. samara's reason for becoming a justicar has been laid to rest, she is free to make other choices. and i see more of a mother figure, not so much a mother, which would be awkward.  more of an advisor.
also - you say samara hasnt spent time with her other daughters for centuries. first question - how do you know? second question - how unusual would that be for an asari?

[Dean_the_Young]

S Seraff wrote...

Dean, you're getting fiesty, slow down
The quick answer is yes I do.  samara hunted morinth because of the danger she posed to others.she put the safety of the public ahead of her love for her daughter. there is nobility in that.

She didn't hunt Morinth because Morinth was a danger to a public: Justicars are a greater danger to the public than Morinth, considering the absolutism Justicars treat the common crimes most of us tolerate: smuggling, those who defend someone deemed 'wicked', or even police officers doing their job. Morinth endangers individuals, but Samara threatens greater groups with greater dangers for societies. 'The public' is only protected so long as it is considered 'just' by the Code, a definition that only holds in so long as they don't resist her implementation of it. If Samara wanted to protect the public, she could have joined the police. Or become an investigator to investigate and tip off Justicars or Asari authorities herself. But Samara didn't want Morinth stopped for the public good: she wanted to kill Morinth herself. That's the focus of her obsession.

Samara hunted Morinth because it was personal, however you interpet 'it', but Samara isn't and never has been portrayed as someone who acted for the public interest beyond her Code or her own beliefs. She represents an ideal that the Asari public reveres, but her motivations for doing so are entirely personal... a fact you concede in your very next statement for why she could/should then quit being a Justicar.

The Justicar ideal is a noble as the ideal of classical nobility itself: it sounds nice, until you actually look at what it can mean when put into practice.

samara's reason for becoming a justicar has been laid to rest, she is free to make other choices. and i see more of a mother figure, not so much a mother, which would be awkward.  more of an advisor.

She might make an excellent cautionary tale of how not to lead one's life, but she's a poor advisor. The next good mother figure evidence we see out of her will be the first.

also - you say samara hasnt spent time with her other daughters for centuries. first question - how do you know?

Because Samara tells us she has spent the time since then either in training or tracking Morinth.

second question - how unusual would that be for an asari?

The Justicars are a tiny minority, so 'very.' Mothers who abandon surviving family in order for personal crusades are also a minority, and while Asari may be aliens Mass Effect has made clear they're certainly mostly Human in sociology and culture.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:41 .

[ladyvader]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Taritu wrote...

Remember the mother whose daughter Morinth killed? Samara did what she had to do. Morinth was a serial killer. If she would ignore that because she was a "mother" Samara would be a monster.

I never liked Shep's line with the mother, "It's alright, we have all lost someone"...he doesn't get it and I cringe...Samara does a perfect save though with "I have lost a daughter also"...I felt Samara's dialog.

Yes, Samara did do what she had to do.

Strictly speaking, there's no reason why Shepard couldn't know the pain of losing family before hand. Or even a child: there's more than enough empty backstory for the player to fill in while role playing.

But no Shepard is a stranger to loss.

As a mother myself, I can assure you the loss of one's own child would be a whole new level...there's no comparison...Sheps line rings loud and clear of 'he dousn't get it'....Though I am okay with that, he wouldn't get it, still makes me cringe at his blunder regardless.

I think you missed the point:

Shepard can well have already lost a child, if the player wishes to roleplay that. It can still be a piece of fill-in backstory.

Only if Shepard had a kid before s/he turned 18.  Every background has Shepard joining the Alliance at 18.

I have read a fanfic where a femShep had a daughter at the age of 17.

Modifié par ladyvader, 01 septembre 2011 - 10:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ladyvader wrote...

Only if Shepard had a kid before s/he turned 18.  Every background has Shepard joining the Alliance at 18.

I have read a fanfic where a femShep had a daughter at the age of 17.

This may surprise you, but plenty of people have children after joining the military.

It's harder for women than men (though an abortion backstory could suffice to an extent), but for a male Shepard joining the Alliance in no way stops him from getting some girl knocked up.

Hell, Shepard could still be paying child support.

[S Seraff]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
She didn't hunt Morinth because Morinth was a danger to a public: Justicars are a greater danger to the public than Morinth,

"Two of Samara's daughters, Falere and Rila, chose to live their lives in isolation and comfort. Her third daughter,Morinth, whom Samara described as the "smartest and bravest" of the three, refused to go into seclusion and fled, beginning a spree of murder and violence. Recognizing her daughter's growing addiction to killing her mates, Samara gave up her worldly possessions, swore herself to the Code, and became a justicar."

And this:
"Justicars swear oaths called the Oaths of Subsumation. These pledge protection of the innocent, the punishment of the guilty, and defence of common law and the norms of asari society. This means justicars will never overthrow an existing government, and will instead preserve the existing laws of the asari without the risk of staging a coup should the government be judged unjust.Given their personal sacrifices, skill and rigid adherence to their Code, justicars are highly revered in asari culture, and there are many stories and vids made of their adventures, although much of it is exaggerated." Just something to think about. it would not make sense for a justicar to be more dangerous to the public at large than an ardat-yakshi

Why do you think Samara's choice to hunt Morinth, while both personal and done for the good of the public, was bad/ unmotherly?

Because Samara tells us she has spent the time since then either in training or tracking Morinth.

She also had time to do other things, like hunt Nihlus. I'm pointing out that you DON'T know samara hasnt seen her daughters; you may be right, but you're just guessing, and that's important to observe. and i asked how unusual it would be for asari parents to go a century or so without seeing their kids because they're so long lived; I'm curious to know for sure. 

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]S Seraff wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
She didn't hunt Morinth because Morinth was a danger to a public: Justicars are a greater danger to the public than Morinth,[/quote]

"Two of Samara's daughters, Falere and Rila, chose to live their lives in isolation and comfort. Her third daughter,Morinth, whom Samara described as the "smartest and bravest" of the three, refused to go into seclusion and fled, beginning a spree of murder and violence. Recognizing her daughter's growing addiction to killing her mates, Samara gave up her worldly possessions, swore herself to the Code, and became a justicar."


Why do you think Samara's choice to hunt Morinth, while both
personal and done for the good of the public, was bad/
unmotherly?[/quote]Because she still has two other daughters and chose to throw them away in order to chase the third runaway for three hundred years as a radical deontoligist.

[quote]
And this:
"Justicars swear oaths called the Oaths of Subsumation. These pledge protection of the innocent, the punishment of the guilty, and defence of common law and the norms of asari society. This means justicars will never overthrow an existing government, and will instead preserve the existing laws of the asari without the risk of staging a coup should the government be judged unjust.Given their personal sacrifices, skill and rigid adherence to their Code, justicars are highly revered in asari culture, and there are many stories and vids made of their adventures, although much of it is exaggerated." Just something to think about. it would not make sense for a justicar to be more dangerous to the public at large than an ardat-yakshi[/quote]And did you think about how the definition of the common law and norms of Asari socieity as interpreted by the Justicars are defined by the Justicars themselves? Unless you intend to argue that the norm of Asari society include blowing up police stations or killing villages who have been fooled, perhaps you yourself should think on just what just what a Justicar's viewpoint means.

Also, citing a quote is only proper courtesy to whoever you quote from.
[quote]
Because Samara tells us she has spent the time since then either in training or tracking Morinth.[/quote]

She also had time to do other things, like hunt Nihlus.[/quote]She also had the time to help Shepard. Why did she encounter Shepard? Because she was pursuing Morinth.

This is like claiming that if you take a restroom break, you aren't focusing on your studies.

[quote]I'm pointing out that you DON'T know samara hasnt seen her daughters; you may be right, but you're just guessing, and that's important to observe. and i asked how unusual it would be for asari parents to go a century or so without seeing their kids because they're so long lived; I'm curious to know for sure. [/quote]And I'll point out that you're missing what's actually important in that point: that Samara did abandon a family life style for her remaining children to pursue Morinth.

Even a few visits every few decades doesn't change that... if she did that many. Which she didn't, given the context of the Shadow Broker dossier. And her Oath of Silence even implies that she's no longer allowed to even call her children: being a Justicar isn't just giving up worldly belongings, it's giving up family.

You're quibbling micropoints that don't overturn the macro, except your micro are wrong as well.

And here's the dossier file.

[Dean_the_Young]

And for those who note the date:

Samara took her Vow of Silence and cut off her ties with her remaining daughters in 1755 CE.

Mass Effect 2 begins in 2184 CE. So, technically and in fact, Samara has cut off the rest of her family for 430 years by the end of ME2.

[S Seraff]

Dean, it's too easy to light you up
thanks for the dossier reference, I had completely forgotten that.

My quotes were ones I made up myself.
... just kidding, they're from the mass effect wikia, on samara's and the justicar pages.

I get the sense that defending your perspective is more important to you than anything else, so I will just say this. I understand why Samara became a justicar to hunt Morinth; she considered that her primary duty as a mother, one that superceded her relationship with her other daughters; in the asari world justicars are seen as heroes and ardat-yakshi as villains, make of that what you will.

Samara's story is a tragedy. i do think it's central to her personality that she felt Personally responsible to rectify the Morinth problem; other asari might instead have sent the law enforcement folks after her. that has a bit of hubris in it,and also nobility. it seems an important point that she didnt become a justicar to become a justicar; she became a justicar to hunt morinth.

so, my question to you is, what do you think is an interesting next step for her character, or do you consider her "done?" 

[Golden Owl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]If she can't even be bothered to be a mother to her own children locked away, or be inclined to step down from a Justicar for any of the trillions of orphans and other people with terrible pasts, and if she's never even given a hint that she wants to quit while giving very many that she intends to continue, why would she ever do so for Jack? When, again, in doing so she wouldn't even be bothering to address her own children who are still alive?

And why on earth would Jack want her to? Jack doesn't want a paternalistic figure either.

I really, really don't get why anyone things such a thing would either be in character or even possible. Samara's a 'good' Justicar but a bad mother. Jack doesn't want a mother and is even worse with moral absolutism.

You'd be better off writing a Mordin/Grunt fic in which Mordin tries to 'civilize' Grunt into a gentle, caring Krogan who recites poetry and takes a blue collar job.

Really not getting it huh....Samara feels directly responsible for the deeds of her daughter and for every murder her daughter commits as it was she who bought Morinth into the world....Samara would feel obligated as a good mother to shoulder the responsibilty of her daughter....Kinda along the lines of the 'Lost Lamb' parable....Samara's other two daughters are safe themselves and of no threat to the wider community...and so Samara focuses on that which most needs her direct attention....She has had to make a tough choice that would destroy a mothers heart and this is portrayed well in her dialogs with Shep...she is doing what she has to do, not what she wants to do.

[Golden Owl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
She didn't hunt Morinth because Morinth was a danger to a public: Justicars are a greater danger to the public than Morinth, considering the absolutism Justicars treat the common crimes most of us tolerate: smuggling, those who defend someone deemed 'wicked', or even police officers doing their job. Morinth endangers individuals, but Samara threatens greater groups with greater dangers for societies. 'The public' is only protected so long as it is considered 'just' by the Code, a definition that only holds in so long as they don't resist her implementation of it. If Samara wanted to protect the public, she could have joined the police. Or become an investigator to investigate and tip off Justicars or Asari authorities herself. But Samara didn't want Morinth stopped for the public good: she wanted to kill Morinth herself. That's the focus of her obsession.

The Justicar ideal is a noble as the ideal of classical nobility itself: it sounds nice, until you actually look at what it can mean when put into practice.

The Justicar and the code are an Asari cultural element....Asari are bought up on stories of Justicars as these great and respected law bringers within their society...feared and revered....As another culture, we are not expected to necessarily understand it and though I don't agree with the killing of police officers on orders to detain a Justicar, you will note yourself, the acceptance the police officer has of the situation, she doesn't question it...The Justicar code is very culture specific....Samara is acting as a Justicar as the code demands, as a part of her culture, she understands it, those outside the Asari culture do not....Both great and terrible things have been done throughout human history (and still do) due to culture....you/me/we/etc...may not necessarily agree with many of these actions in the name of culture, but what can be understood is the strength of cultural influence and the blinding effects it can have on the people involved....All cultures, all people.

[S Seraff]

It occurs to me that Dean's views could be mirrored by one of Samara's daughters, Falere or Rila. would make for some good dialogue in ME3!

[Golden Owl]

Samara what are you doing way back on the threads?.........Bump for love....

Modifié par Golden Owl, 05 septembre 2011 - 03:20 .

[Flamewielder]

Assuming Samara plays a role in ME3 on Thessia, that could provide further development of Samara's relationship with her daughters. What degree of contact were allowed to have prior to Samara joining the Justicars. Were visitors allowed? What form did these visits take? Was videoconference the only form of communication allowed?

We can question her decision of forsaking her surviving children to hunt down Morinth. After all, would you, as a parent, forsake your children to hunt down your serial-killing offspring? It's not as simple a question as it sounds:

Most of us don't have the skills to hunt down a serial-killer. Samara had considerable aptitude to do so, as well as a way to aquire the necessary skills and social sanction: the Order. If you were a police investigator, wouldn't you take a personnal interest in the apprehension of your serial-killing child?

What measure of parental support was Samara allowed to provide her remaining daughters? Was it likely her staying behind would have helped them? How long would it take before seeing eachother through a 3-inch shatterproof sheet of glass became torture instead of a source of comfort?

[S Seraff]

^ this the field is pretty open for samara and her daughters. also, didnt samara say she was thinking about going back to Omega to do some work after the SM?

i think the critical path story line might involve samara, omega and her daughters. I think a LI side path with Shep is totally doable, with her even giving up the Code.

[PauseforEffect]

Anyone think that there will be an actual fight between Shepard and Samara in ME3 if Shepard's a renegade?
It doesn't seem likely but it would be surprising (and refreshing) to see that happen as an actual consequence. Although, with the Reapers on the horizon....

[nocbl2]

She's such a boss.

I respect the character (and her writers) because she won't sleep with shepard.

[S Seraff]

primal, i hope so at least a conflict. i can see her with a renegade shep just duking it out at some point if she cant tolerate a decision he's made. but i also would like it complicated for a paragon shep, where maybe the most ethical decision conflicts somehow with the Code, and shep has to make a choice. in that case, if were the writer i'd plan out a way fr them to reconcile

[PauseforEffect]

Would be interesting indeed, S Seraff. Although Dean did make an interesting point about the events of Arrival. While Samara's one to try to avoid killing innocents, I doubt she'll be finding another loophole again. To have to fight her even as a paragon would not surprise me, but would be heartbreaking that it would inevitably turn into that.
One thing I wonder...does the Code have Samara give someone the benefit of the doubt until they actually do something unjust in front of her or until she can prove it? Even if she has good reason to believe they are criminals?

[Xilizhra]

What measure of parental support was Samara allowed to provide her remaining daughters? Was it likely her staying behind would have helped them? How long would it take before seeing eachother through a 3-inch shatterproof sheet of glass became torture instead of a source of comfort?

We can't truly know, but it would have been best to do something like ask, at the very least.

[Golden Owl]

Flamewielder wrote...

Assuming Samara plays a role in ME3 on Thessia, that could provide further development of Samara's relationship with her daughters. What degree of contact were allowed to have prior to Samara joining the Justicars. Were visitors allowed? What form did these visits take? Was videoconference the only form of communication allowed?

We can question her decision of forsaking her surviving children to hunt down Morinth. After all, would you, as a parent, forsake your children to hunt down your serial-killing offspring? It's not as simple a question as it sounds:

Most of us don't have the skills to hunt down a serial-killer. Samara had considerable aptitude to do so, as well as a way to aquire the necessary skills and social sanction: the Order. If you were a police investigator, wouldn't you take a personnal interest in the apprehension of your serial-killing child?

What measure of parental support was Samara allowed to provide her remaining daughters? Was it likely her staying behind would have helped them? How long would it take before seeing eachother through a 3-inch shatterproof sheet of glass became torture instead of a source of comfort?

As a mother of three daughters myself, ranging from 17 years to 9 years, I can without a doubt state, I would feel personally responsible for any actions my daughters take (after all...I raised them) and would feel responsible for taking action if one of them were to inflict some kind of injustice, cruelty, etc...on the world....and as their mother, I would rather it be me taking action over a stranger to them...I love my girls deeply and would want that love included, not from someone who doesn't car about who they are or how they feel....Does that make sense?

[Golden Owl]

S Seraff wrote...

primal, i hope so at least a conflict. i can see her with a renegade shep just duking it out at some point if she cant tolerate a decision he's made. but i also would like it complicated for a paragon shep, where maybe the most ethical decision conflicts somehow with the Code, and shep has to make a choice. in that case, if were the writer i'd plan out a way fr them to reconcile

....That worries me a bit, I like Samara a lot, I would hate for my Shep to go head to head with her.......There would definitely need to be a talk jitsu option...