2338 réponses à ce sujet

[S Seraff]

lol talk jitsu, i love it! and i agree, ala Wrex in ME1. i like real conflict, but i also like it to be handled with dialogue over combat... like adults, you know...

[Flamewielder]

PrimalEden wrote...
One thing I wonder...does the Code have Samara give someone the benefit of the doubt until they actually do something unjust in front of her or until she can prove it? Even if she has good reason to believe they are criminals?

We kinda have to assume she does, otherwise Justicars would be making headline news almost everyday in asari space...  We are given the impression that the Order is much more selective as to what type of criminal they actively prosecute and whatever petty criminal they might chance upon and catch red-handed.

It is clear that Justicars are given some leeway as to when/how to apply the Code. Like a canny lawyer, Justicars have mastered their 5000 sutras and will likely be able to justify whatever course of action they choose to take with an appropriate reasoning.

More interestingly, it leaves room for two Justicars to take opposite sides in a particularly difficult case. Remember: Justicars come with big egos... and likely work alone for that very reason.

While the Code itself is dispassionate, the individual Justicar isn't necessarily so.

[Xilizhra]

As a mother of three daughters myself, ranging from 17 years to 9 years, I can without a doubt state, I would feel personally responsible for any actions my daughters take (after all...I raised them) and would feel responsible for taking action if one of them were to inflict some kind of injustice, cruelty, etc...on the world....and as their mother, I would rather it be me taking action over a stranger to them...I love my girls deeply and would want that love included, not from someone who doesn't car about who they are or how they feel....Does that make sense?

If it's just going to involve killing them, would that help? Especially since Samara gives absolutely no hint of actually loving Morinth (I mean, based on that conversation alone, I really can't blame Morinth for her "my mother was as powerful as she was hateful" line).

[S Seraff]

didnt samara say something like "I am devastated but I am free," or something, when shep asks how she's doing after killing morinth?

Xilizha, is your main objection to samara that she KILLED morinth, rather ARRESTING her? (in which case Morinth's crimes probably would have earned her death, just inflicted by someone else?) it bugs you that Samara exacted that punishment herself? am I getting that right?

[Xilizhra]

didnt samara say something like "I am devastated but I am free," or something, when shep asks how she's doing after killing morinth?

Yes, but she didn't say it to Morinth.

Xilizha, is your main objection to samara that she KILLED morinth, rather ARRESTING her? (in which case Morinth's crimes probably would have earned her death, just inflicted by someone else?) it bugs you that Samara exacted that punishment herself? am I getting that right?

I really don't know. I would have preferred that both of them remain alive, but I don't know how it'd be possible. I was more talking about how it doesn't help Morinth at all to be killed by someone who loves her if the killer doesn't act like it at all.

[PauseforEffect]

As always Flamewielder, well-written. I am grateful for your answers to my questions.
I do believe Samara loved Morinth deeply. I also believe Morinth knew that too and exploited it in the past to get away. When Morinth calls Samara "Mother", it's almost in a mocking tone, the way someone would use that to stab another in the side. The strong reaction Samara gave to the title of mother would imply that Morinth used that to distract her and it likely ended with someone's death as a result. Samara had been chasing Morinth for centuries; you'd have to be almost insane to continue such a maddening hunt. Take a look at Liara and how much it changed her once compassionate nature after just 2 years. It's not surprising that by the time Samara had Morinth cornered, she wasn't taking any chances in the speed she took to kill her. But even then, you see small moments of how much it would affect her. That pause as she closes her eyes in resignation (or is it relief?) before crushing Morinth's head. The way she praised her daughter even as she knew that she'd kill Morinth again without hesitation. Love is a complicated emotion as we all know and Samara's story is a familiar one regarding family relationships.
On the other side, Morinth calls her a terrible mother and that her own opinion mattered more than her mother's. There is nothing she says off-hand that even suggests she cared about her mom.

[Xilizhra]

When Morinth calls Samara "Mother", it's almost in a mocking tone, the way someone would use that to stab another in the side.

I can't say that I agree; she's emphasizing it, but she seems much too angry to be mocking.

On the other side, Morinth calls her a terrible mother and that her own opinion mattered more than her mother's. There is nothing she says off-hand that even suggests she cared about her mom.

Morinth was also convinced that Samara hated her, and apparently that Samara never loved her at all.

[Golden Owl]

Xilizhra wrote...

As a mother of three daughters myself, ranging from 17 years to 9 years, I can without a doubt state, I would feel personally responsible for any actions my daughters take (after all...I raised them) and would feel responsible for taking action if one of them were to inflict some kind of injustice, cruelty, etc...on the world....and as their mother, I would rather it be me taking action over a stranger to them...I love my girls deeply and would want that love included, not from someone who doesn't car about who they are or how they feel....Does that make sense?

If it's just going to involve killing them, would that help? Especially since Samara gives absolutely no hint of actually loving Morinth (I mean, based on that conversation alone, I really can't blame Morinth for her "my mother was as powerful as she was hateful" line).

God forbid something like that...but yes, better by a loving hand....By the same token, this thread of conversation is going places I would rather not consider or think about.

I disagree...I feel Samara does make it obvious she loves Morinth...her pain and anger in her battle with Morinth and her dialog after the event...Samara becomes a broken woman, it hurt her extremely deeply.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 08 septembre 2011 - 12:49 .

[Golden Owl]

Xilizhra wrote...

When Morinth calls Samara "Mother", it's almost in a mocking tone, the way someone would use that to stab another in the side.

I can't say that I agree; she's emphasizing it, but she seems much too angry to be mocking.

On the other side, Morinth calls her a terrible mother and that her own opinion mattered more than her mother's. There is nothing she says off-hand that even suggests she cared about her mom.

Morinth was also convinced that Samara hated her, and apparently that Samara never loved her at all.

I would agree that it's a mocking tone and if Morinth is your survivor....she comes across as a very immature young woman, not getting what she wants, when she wants, etc...Kind of atypical rebelous teenage mentality.

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well I think that's disgusting. Turn your daughter into the police. Offer them shelter and then call the cops. That's all fine, but taking up an oath to kill them? I just find that callous.

Samara doesn't love or care about Morinth. She isn't doing this for Morinth. The only reason she does what she does is to assuage her own guilt. Samara is selfish.

Deep love brings feelings of deep responsibility.

And if the country your in practises capital punishment?

[Xilizhra]

God forbid something like that...but yes, better by a loving hand....By the same token, this thread of conversation is going places I would rather not consider or think about.

I disagree...I feel Samara does make it obvious she loves Morinth...her pain and anger in her battle with Morinth and her dialog after the event...Samara becomes a broken woman, it hurt her extremely deeply.

I don't think what you or Samara feels in this scenario really matters. It's what Morinth feels that would actually affect how her death went, and it's made rather clear that Morinth is convinced that Samara hates her and probably never loved her at all.

I would agree that it's a mocking tone and if Morinth is your survivor....she comes across as a very immature young woman, not getting what she wants, when she wants, etc...Kind of atypical rebelous teenage mentality.

Well, yeah. Her life was pretty much defined forever by an occurrence in her young teen years, and she's been too busy running to ever really grow past it.

Deep love brings feelings of deep responsibility.

In this case, that's not relevant. What your personal feelings are, in a situation like this, doesn't really matter.

[shiftylookingspacecow]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well I think that's disgusting. Turn your daughter into the police. Offer them shelter and then call the cops. That's all fine, but taking up an oath to kill them? I just find that callous.

Samara doesn't love or care about Morinth. She isn't doing this for Morinth. The only reason she does what she does is to assuage her own guilt. Samara is selfish.

I thought it acceptable until i learned that she abandoned her other two daughters to chase Morinth

[Golden Owl]

Xilizhra wrote...

God forbid something like that...but yes, better by a loving hand....By the same token, this thread of conversation is going places I would rather not consider or think about.

I disagree...I feel Samara does make it obvious she loves Morinth...her pain and anger in her battle with Morinth and her dialog after the event...Samara becomes a broken woman, it hurt her extremely deeply.

I don't think what you or Samara feels in this scenario really matters. It's what Morinth feels that would actually affect how her death went, and it's made rather clear that Morinth is convinced that Samara hates her and probably never loved her at all.

I would agree that it's a mocking tone and if Morinth is your survivor....she comes across as a very immature young woman, not getting what she wants, when she wants, etc...Kind of atypical rebelous teenage mentality.

Well, yeah. Her life was pretty much defined forever by an occurrence in her young teen years, and she's been too busy running to ever really grow past it.

Deep love brings feelings of deep responsibility.

In this case, that's not relevant. What your personal feelings are, in a situation like this, doesn't really matter.

Best solution...it's just a game....we can always agree to disagree...I don't want to continue down this path, it leads both of us nowhere.

[PauseforEffect]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well I think that's disgusting. Turn your daughter into the police. Offer them shelter and then call the cops. That's all fine, but taking up an oath to kill them? I just find that callous.

Samara doesn't love or care about Morinth. She isn't doing this for Morinth. The only reason she does what she does is to assuage her own guilt. Samara is selfish.

Callous? Samara IS the authority when she became a Justicar. That's why she did it. Of course she didn't do it for Morinth; she did it for the people Morinth murdered. Samara may love Morinth, but she's hardly letting that stop her from doing what is necessary for the sake of many.
And you chew people out for not being willing to make hard decisions while criticizing Samara for doing precisely that.

[Xilizhra]

How many people died who didn't have to because of Samara?
How many were saved in total?

An interesting question. Alas, it's probably impossible to tell.

[PauseforEffect]

Xilizhra wrote...

God forbid something like that...but yes, better by a loving hand....By the same token, this thread of conversation is going places I would rather not consider or think about.

I disagree...I feel Samara does make it obvious she loves Morinth...her pain and anger in her battle with Morinth and her dialog after the event...Samara becomes a broken woman, it hurt her extremely deeply.

I don't think what you or Samara feels in this scenario really matters. It's what Morinth feels that would actually affect how her death went, and it's made rather clear that Morinth is convinced that Samara hates her and probably never loved her at all.

I would agree that it's a mocking tone and if Morinth is your survivor....she comes across as a very immature young woman, not getting what she wants, when she wants, etc...Kind of atypical rebelous teenage mentality.

Well, yeah. Her life was pretty much defined forever by an occurrence in her young teen years, and she's been too busy running to ever really grow past it.

Deep love brings feelings of deep responsibility.

In this case, that's not relevant. What your personal feelings are, in a situation like this, doesn't really matter.

No, Shepard's or Samara's feelings probably don't matter. But does that mean the same for Nef? Nef's mother? All the victims Morinth killed and even her sisters who actually had the decency to go into seclusion and are even denied their mother's presence because of Morinth? Morinth's feelings became irrelevant the moment she started murdering people. Her inability to mature over the centuries does not even help her; Jack was capable of showing personal growth when with a Shepard that influenced her towards a more merciful path. Why not Morinth? She had people who cared about her, that was clear, and she had CENTURIES to change. She has not and the Codex gives the explanation why.
Yes it was unfair to Samara's daughters to be denied a future of their choosing. Just as it was unfair of Morinth to deny Nef of her future as well. Are Morinth's feelings of any concern after what she inflicts upon others? Of her own volition no less?

[Xilizhra]

and even her sisters who actually had the decency to go into seclusion and are even denied their mother's presence because of Morinth?

This doesn't follow. It was Samara's choice to become a justicar, not Morinth's.

Why not Morinth?

Being underdeveloped in-game.

[PauseforEffect]

Yes, it was Samara's choice to become a justicar because of Morinth.
And if they had developed Morinth beyond that emo-goth immaturity, I would not feel compelled to nitpick obnoxiously with long-winded speeches.
You have my respect Xilizhra for the patience you show to others in debates.

[Flamewielder]

We mustn't forget that the ME lore states that runaway dangerous A-Y are hunted down and killed. Not because they're simply serial-killers (who could perhaps conceivably be locked-up and maybe therapied into harmless drooling idiots through drugs and long sessions with a very patient psychiatrist...), but because the lore makes them serial-killers irreversably addicted to the act of brain-leaching their victims to death with not an iota of empathy towards other sentient beings.

The lore makes them irredeemable serial-killing sociopaths, that even the advanced medical knowlege of the most advanced species in Council space cannot cure. Instead, the asari offer them the only choice they can: voluntary life-time seclusion or death. We're not talking about anything remotely inside our human experience.

If you were a parent of a child that cannot help herself but killing people and that life-emprisonment was not an option (it is not, in asari society), would you kill her yourself or trust others to do it for you? Remember: as far as asari are concerned, there is nothing left for Samara to offer Morinth but a swift and painless death. I ask again: would you kill her yourself, or trust others to do it for you?

Samara may, as some claim, only be doing this out of a sense of social duty. I don't believe it's entirely the case. Should she have never bothered with Morinth and remained on Thessia to "care" for her other 2 daughters? Perhaps she did, for a while, assuming their confinement allowed something beyond weekly visits in what essentially amounts to a supermax security prison. For all we know, the visits may have been causing more harm than good on both sides... who knows?

[whywhywhywhy]

I think it's one of the few things the writers got right about me2. Both sides are correct and wrong you really don't have a correct choice in this scenario, only perspective. And depending on how the events in your live have shaped your perspective you'll naturally identify or agree with one side with greater affinity then the other.

[Flamewielder]

Reflecting back on comments made by asari on Illium, I realized how "chaotic" asari society is compared to the more "lawful" humans. Humans crave structure, order, even wage war over belief systems that tell them how they should behave.

Asari appear to value individualism and independence, placing the onus on the individual to make the right choices. If you've watched "Thank You for Smoking", you'll see exactly what I mean. Asari see nothing wrong with selling potentially lethal drugs on the free market, as long as a clear disclamer is on the pack, essentially the same argument raised by tobacco companies in the movie.

The asari legal system is apparently made up of laws (Code) with few, if any actual regulations. Laws are a statement of intent, while regulations are statements of specifications/crietria that must be met. When no regulation exists, it is up to to the judge (or justicar) to decide wether an individual displayed due diligence in complying with a law's intention.

[Xilizhra]

Asari appear to value individualism and independence, placing the onus on the individual to make the right choices. If you've watched "Thank You for Smoking", you'll see exactly what I mean. Asari see nothing wrong with selling potentially lethal drugs on the free market, as long as a clear disclamer is on the pack, essentially the same argument raised by tobacco companies in the movie.

Um, what? That's an opinion raised by one asari, and the asari she's speaking to highly disagrees. And the first asari is an Illium executive, which seems to be one step above "Omega gang boss."

The lore makes them irredeemable serial-killing sociopaths, that even the advanced medical knowlege of the most advanced species in Council space cannot cure. Instead, the asari offer them the only choice they can: voluntary life-time seclusion or death. We're not talking about anything remotely inside our human experience.

I find that part of the lore rather dodgy. Samara's other daughters don't seem to have any sociopathic traits; I suspect it's more of a learned trait.

Also, regardless of how much Samara could do for them, they hated the thought of her leaving and she had to apologize profusely.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:51 .