2338 réponses à ce sujet

[Flamewielder]

True, but they were also very young and reacted as any healthy child would when forcibly separated from her parents. Given counseling, they may have learned to manage the empathy-deficit that comes with the disorder.

Once A-Y mate and kill, whatever sentient they become attracted to becomes nothing more than an apetizing tidbit on a galactic buffet. That's when mere empathy-deficit ends and sociopathy truly sets in. The A-Y shows no more remorse than any predator over the death of her most recent prey. It's not consciously evil in the sense that they revel in the resulting tragedy (i.e. gloating over grieving loved ones, etc...). But because the prey is another sentient being, it's sociopathy at its worse; and it likely only gets worse as the A-Y's body count tallies up.

That's not to say that Samara's decision to join the justicars was any healthier, of course. Her decision was quite the emotional one and not something logic dictated. There's a lot of internalized conflict there, below the outward serenity and rationalization granted by the Code. I tend to agree with Dean that a lot of Samara's tragedy is self-inflicted and there great potential there for further character exploration in it.

As far as the asari approach to ethics: asari attitude towards indentured labour is also enlightening, showing that the ultra-liberal approach to ethics is not limited to Illium executives. The point being, unless some Council regulation forbids it, it's quite acceptable as long as contract terms are respected by both parties (even if one of said parties didn't read the fine print carefully enough).

My point is: asari all share a more or less similar notion of right and wrong, which is the foundation for laws. Humans complement laws with regulations to limit the room for interpretation, as they feel more comfortable answering "True" or "False" than multiple choice questions... Asari, on the other hand, tend to look at all sides of an issue (something they use to their advantage in their role as "galactic mediators") and feel quite at ease with complex, multiple-choice answers.

Samara's statement that her adjucation of a given issue often surprises both parties may stem from a natural asari proclivity towards nuanced responses.

[S Seraff]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

I think it's one of the few things the writers got right about me2. Both sides are correct and wrong you really don't have a correct choice in this scenario, only perspective. And depending on how the events in your live have shaped your perspective you'll naturally identify or agree with one side with greater affinity then the other.

this  samara is controversial. = good character. 

[Xilizhra]

Once A-Y mate and kill, whatever sentient they become attracted to becomes nothing more than an apetizing tidbit on a galactic buffet. That's when mere empathy-deficit ends and sociopathy truly sets in. The A-Y shows no more remorse than any predator over the death of her most recent prey. It's not consciously evil in the sense that they revel in the resulting tragedy (i.e. gloating over grieving loved ones, etc...). But because the prey is another sentient being, it's sociopathy at its worse; and it likely only gets worse as the A-Y's body count tallies up.

I don't accept the fact that it's incurable. I suspect that the asari simply kill them for cultural reasons, and that there are other ways around it that could be managed if the asari weren't so keen on keeping this a secret from everyone.

[Sepewrath]

Well its not exactly easy to cure genetic abnormalities, science isn't magic, not even in Mass Effect, at least not on the biology front. If they wanted to keep it hidden, it would actually be in their best interest to cure it, as opposed to sticking them in some kind of prison and having the rare one run off. So I doubt they are capable of curing it.

[Xilizhra]

Not the A-Y condition as such, I was referring to the accompanying sociopathy.

[Sepewrath]

Oh, well the cure is to not partake in it, like Samara said it becomes narcotic, once its starts, I don't think it can be stopped. Because unlike say drugs or alcohol, something the person could be separated from, they couldn't exist in a normal society, because "prey" is always going to be there, making itself readily available.

[Xilizhra]

They might need to be isolated for a time, but it'd be temporary.

[Sepewrath]

I think isolation would have to permanent, I don't think Morinth could ever be expected to function. Its either death or imprisonment, for someone like her. If one was walking around and just remained celibate, they might be good to go. Morinth is too far gone, i don't see any saving her, predation is instinct for her, not a desire.

[Xilizhra]

Sepewrath wrote...

I think isolation would have to permanent, I don't think Morinth could ever be expected to function. Its either death or imprisonment, for someone like her. If one was walking around and just remained celibate, they might be good to go. Morinth is too far gone, i don't see any saving her, predation is instinct for her, not a desire.

I think it's too soon to say, and she wasn't well developed enough for that to be proven in any case.

[Sepewrath]

There is nothing left to show, she is either a creature slave to instinct, who must hunt or she is a serial killer who kills, simply because she wants to. Neither is someone who should be free to walk around. There is no middle ground in there that would be beneficial to the conclusion of her freedom.

[Flamewielder]

^ And if killing becomes addictive, what will any withdrawal symptom be like? As the lore describes it, it is an incurable, irreversible condition. Weaning oneself from a chemical drug-addiction like heroin can be described as a harrowing experience but it is nevertheless possible because chemical drug-addiction is reversible, even if any brain damage suffered from drug use is not.

The most advanced civilization in the galaxy has found no better answer for lethal A-Y sufferers than life-emprsonment or death? To me, this suggests that the addiction is irreversible and that withdrawal symptoms are so horrific to be considered torture; making death a more "humane" alternative to letting an addicted A-Y pound her head open against the padded wall of an isolation cell while in the throws of a never-ending withdrawal-induced delirium tremens.

It suggests the addiction goes beyond neurochemistry into the "psychic" level, either because the neurotransmitter combinations are too complex for current asari medecine to unravel or because the addiction is related to the mind melding process itself.

Another question worth asking: at what point does an A-Y on the serial-killing path ceases to be the child you once reared? At what point will you cease to view this individual as your daughter and begin to view her as a stranger, alien from whatever your reared her to be, whatever you aspired for her? Somewhere in the course of the last 400 years or so, Samara had to walk through that soul-wringer. Did she walk out unscathed? Probably not.

[nitefyre410]

Flamewielder wrote...



Another question worth asking: at what point does an A-Y on the serial-killing path ceases to be the child you once reared? At what point will you cease to view this individual as your daughter and begin to view her as a stranger, alien from whatever your reared her to be, whatever you aspired for her? Somewhere in the course of the last 400 years or so, Samara had to walk through that soul-wringer. Did she walk out unscathed? Probably not.

 


To answer that question -  Never.  No matter what  happens- no matter what Morinth became and how it end.  She will always be the child and the baby that  Samara gave birth too and nothing is every going to change that very fact.   Which simply makes what Samara had to so much more  harrowing. So no - she did not walk unscathed nobody could - no one is that strong.  Something like this is something just stays with you  and never leaves you learn live with it as best you can.
 

[Xilizhra]

The most advanced civilization in the galaxy has found no better answer for lethal A-Y sufferers than life-emprsonment or death? To me, this suggests that the addiction is irreversible and that withdrawal symptoms are so horrific to be considered torture; making death a more "humane" alternative to letting an addicted A-Y pound her head open against the padded wall of an isolation cell while in the throws of a never-ending withdrawal-induced delirium tremens.

Not the most medically advanced society in the galaxy. That's the salarians' area of expertise, and that's an avenue that the asari have refused to take because of this emphasis on hiding the condition. I don't believe that just because the asari have failed to do something, it's somehow impossible.

To answer that question - Never. No matter what happens- no matter what Morinth became and how it end. She will always be the child and the baby that Samara gave birth too and nothing is every going to change that very fact. Which simply makes what Samara had to so much more harrowing. So no - she did not walk unscathed nobody could - no one is that strong. Something like this is something just stays with you and never leaves you learn live with it as best you can.

Regrettably, this didn't seem to be the case on Morinth's end.

[nitefyre410]

Xilizhra wrote...

To answer that question - Never. No matter what happens- no matter what Morinth became and how it end. She will always be the child and the baby that Samara gave birth too and nothing is every going to change that very fact. Which simply makes what Samara had to so much more harrowing. So no - she did not walk unscathed nobody could - no one is that strong. Something like this is something just stays with you and never leaves you learn live with it as best you can.

Regrettably, this didn't seem to be the case on Morinth's end.

 

Morinith is angry and its not the type of the anger  that  passes  like  when someone eats you last  eggo  waffle.   She has  that deep seeded personality defining anger that changes a person and defines them.  

[Asenza]

Just dropping in to say I support Samara as a character and desperately hope she becomes a full LI in ME3. I like her a lot- she's mature, beautiful, dedicated (to the code and to Shepard, if you play paragon) and dignified.

I don't think that her refusal of Shepard at the end of ME2 was such a blow to those wishing to romance her. If Bioware wanted to be... strange, like with Aveline in DA2, they could have made it completely one sided, on Shepard's part. But Samara admits that she cares for Shepard, also. Her feelings (and Shepard's) aren't just going to go away. I think that she just needed time- Samara just killed her daughter, the daughter who altered the course of her life. To know that she doesnt have to wake every morning wondering who Morinth has killed now or corrupted- that must take some getting used to. Like Kasumi, I feel like Samara needs time before getting involved in a relationship... I just hope she doesn't wait too long. Samara might have several hundred years left, but unless the Lazarus Project made Shepard immortal, Shepard certainly doesn't. Because I am such a diehard hopeful, I'm seeing the Samara romance scene as a "To Be Continued" as opposed to an end.

There is a lot more to be explored about her, and I feel as though her story is far from finished. Like Thane, Samara has begun a new chapter in her life. She mentions that there will always be injustice out there, and perhaps more Ardat-Yakshi. But certainly having finished with Morinth, the one who she became a Justicar to pursue, that has to have an effect on her. Will she talk to her other daughters now, let them know that their mother accomplished what she set out to do, though it hurt her and them in the process, that it was worth it in the end?

I also hope there might be more information on her bondmate, the other, unnamed asari. We assume they broke up after having not one, not two but three pureblood Ardat-Yakshi daughters- will Samara let them know that Morinth is dead? Was Morinth's actions the reason for their breakup? Who were they, where are they now?

To end, I could never understand those who choose Morinth over Samara, aside from curiosity or getting Dominate. Even if you are renegade, Samara is bound to Shepard's will. I see people on the forums say, "She'll kill me after the mission because I did too many bad things! At least Morinth will go away!"

But that isn't true- Shepard doesn't get to romance Samara if they're too renegade, but she does say that she will do all she can to never meet Shepard again in the future, to avoid having to follow the code. Isn't that... amazing? She doesn't like a renegade Shepard, their actions or principals, and feels that Shepard has made her do dishonorable things... but she will subvert her Code to avoid killing Shepard because of their importance to... well, the galaxy and the whole Reaper thing. She would put aside her own feelings and the demands of the code for the greater good. On the flip side, Morinth lies to Shepard, fries their brain if they ask her to and then (presumably) escapes off into the galaxy to murder her way through the centuries. Samara states that she will come for Shepard (squee, warm and fuzzy moment!) whenever they need it in the future- I think it will be really difficult to come up with a legitimate reason for Morinth to hang around.

Lastly, I think what might be interesting in ME3 if you kill Samara, that her daughters should come after you and Morinth... if they're on Thessia. I don't dislike Morinth as much as I see her as a waste of potential.

How much more awesome would the choice between Samara and Morinth had been, had it been this; if Morinth was chosen over her mother, she could be "redeemed", convinced to live a "chaste" life while not in seclusion, as a LI for Shepard. If Samara was chosen over her daughter, she could become a slave to the code and somehow is corrupted as a result of it- perhaps, as Shepard in the scenario would be the one to redeem Morinth, Shepard would be the one to corrupt Samara.

That, to me, would have taken several levels in awesome above what exists now, and would have in retrospect made the choice between Morinth and Samara more than Strict, Unyielding "Good" vs All Teh Evil. The problem with the Samara/Morinth choice was that it was too black and white and no shades of grey to either side.

tl;dr: Samara is freaking awesome, hope she has a bigger role in ME3 and is a full-fledged LI.

Modifié par Asenza, 09 septembre 2011 - 02:21 .

[Xilizhra]

Morinith is angry and its not the type of the anger that passes like when someone eats you last eggo waffle. She has that deep seeded personality defining anger that changes a person and defines them.

Well, yeah. I would, if I was her.

How much more awesome would the choice between Samara and Morinth had been, had it been this; if Morinth was chosen over her mother, she could be "redeemed", convinced to live a "chaste" life while not in seclusion, as a LI for Shepard. If Samara was chosen over her daughter, she could become a slave to the code and somehow is corrupted as a result of it- perhaps, as Shepard in the scenario would be the one to redeem Morinth, Shepard would be the one to corrupt Samara.

The game's not over yet; something like that could always happen in the future.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 09 septembre 2011 - 02:26 .

[Asenza]

Xilizhra wrote...

Morinith is angry and its not the type of the anger that passes like when someone eats you last eggo waffle. She has that deep seeded personality defining anger that changes a person and defines them.

Well, yeah. I would, if I was her.

How much more awesome would the choice between Samara and Morinth had been, had it been this; if Morinth was chosen over her mother, she could be "redeemed", convinced to live a "chaste" life while not in seclusion, as a LI for Shepard. If Samara was chosen over her daughter, she could become a slave to the code and somehow is corrupted as a result of it- perhaps, as Shepard in the scenario would be the one to redeem Morinth, Shepard would be the one to corrupt Samara.

The game's not over yet; something like that could always happen in the future.

That's assuming Shepard could make Morinth stay around, whether she would want to stay around. Unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed and sunk- if there was even a hint of redeemability or a flicker of remorse in Morinth, we should have seen it in ME2. There was nothing in her what little we saw in her character, from the interaction at Afterlife, to the waiting game in the apartment that Morinth was anything but a killer who enjoyed every act.

[Flamewielder]

Precisely.

And to assume that no asari parent ever attempted to discuss her daughter's condition with whatever salarian medical expert she could find is most unlikely... Yes, the A-Y condition is not commonly discussed among non-asari. But just as the genophage research was never released publically in scientific journals, research into the A-Y condition is not necessarily headline news. After all, asari essentially maintain what amounts to concentration camps where potentially dangerous A-Y are kept in life-long seclusion... out of necessity, not by choice.

A-Y is simply incurable in CE at the time of ME2. Until a cure is found, the problem of dangerous A-Y still has to be adressed by asari society.

[ADLegend21]

Hello Samara thread. I'm making wallpapers for every squadmate in the series so far and here's Samara's, let me know what you think!



Justicar Samara by Carter-Kaine

[Xilizhra]

That's assuming Shepard could make Morinth stay around, whether she would want to stay around. Unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed and sunk- if there was even a hint of redeemability or a flicker of remorse in Morinth, we should have seen it in ME2. There was nothing in her what little we saw in her character, from the interaction at Afterlife, to the waiting game in the apartment that Morinth was anything but a killer who enjoyed every act.

Given that we had vastly less time to experience Morinth as a character than anyone and everyone else on the ship, that's rather a premature statement to make. Other things could well happen in ME3.

And to assume that no asari parent ever attempted to discuss her daughter's condition with whatever salarian medical expert she could find is most unlikely... Yes, the A-Y condition is not commonly discussed among non-asari. But just as the genophage research was never released publically in scientific journals, research into the A-Y condition is not necessarily headline news. After all, asari essentially maintain what amounts to concentration camps where potentially dangerous A-Y are kept in life-long seclusion... out of necessity, not by choice.

Possible, but no widespread cure attempt has ever been made that we know of, and since the codex isn't shy about given us asari-restricted information anyway, I see no reason to believe that we wouldn't know about it if it did exist.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 10 septembre 2011 - 12:43 .

[Asenza]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's assuming Shepard could make Morinth stay around, whether she would want to stay around. Unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed and sunk- if there was even a hint of redeemability or a flicker of remorse in Morinth, we should have seen it in ME2. There was nothing in her what little we saw in her character, from the interaction at Afterlife, to the waiting game in the apartment that Morinth was anything but a killer who enjoyed every act.

Given that we had vastly less time to experience Morinth as a character than anyone and everyone else on the ship, that's rather a premature statement to make. Other things could well happen in ME3.

I have to disagree. She described her conquests with relish. "I was into dueling for a while. I love the look in an opponents eyes, when he realizes you're better, and he's going to die." Several comments like that, in addition to the fact that she'd been up to the whole seduce/kill thing for over four-hundred years paints a very clear picture.

Of course the whole, I'll pretend to be my mother- thing doesn't help much in establishing her character outside her "recruitment mission" but from what was shown there, there WASN'T any more to her character. You can't argue that Morinth has "hidden depths" because Bioware didn't hint at any. They had their one chance to add grey to the black canvas of Morinth's character, and for whatever reason, decided not to do it... or didn't think it necessary.

Modifié par Asenza, 18 septembre 2011 - 11:18 .

[Xilizhra]

Of course the whole, I'll pretend to be my mother- thing doesn't help much in establishing her character outside her "recruitment mission" but from what was shown there, there WASN'T any more to her character. You can't argue that Morinth has "hidden debts" because Bioware didn't hint at any. They had their one chance to add grey to the black canvas of Morinth's character, and for whatever reason, decided not to do it... or didn't think it necessary.

Perhaps I can't argue that now, but it's not their one chance. We still have ME3.

[Asenza]

Xilizhra wrote...

Of course the whole, I'll pretend to be my mother- thing doesn't help much in establishing her character outside her "recruitment mission" but from what was shown there, there WASN'T any more to her character. You can't argue that Morinth has "hidden debts" because Bioware didn't hint at any. They had their one chance to add grey to the black canvas of Morinth's character, and for whatever reason, decided not to do it... or didn't think it necessary.

Perhaps I can't argue that now, but it's not their one chance. We still have ME3.

O_O you... you recruited Morinth, didn't you?!

Hostile accusations aside, what do you think they could do with her in ME3?

[Xilizhra]

Whom I keep is the one thing I haven't decided yet. Thoughts keep wavering. I'll need to see ME3 before I choose.

As for what, well, I have no idea. Some kind of A-Y cure plot could be interesting, regardless of whether it was Samara or Morinth in your party. Maybe the both of them will just vanish; if that's the case, I'll definitely pick Samara. I think a romance plot could be fascinating, but would be remarkably hard to do.

[Asenza]

Xilizhra wrote...

Whom I keep is the one thing I haven't decided yet. Thoughts keep wavering. I'll need to see ME3 before I choose.

As for what, well, I have no idea. Some kind of A-Y cure plot could be interesting, regardless of whether it was Samara or Morinth in your party. Maybe the both of them will just vanish; if that's the case, I'll definitely pick Samara. I think a romance plot could be fascinating, but would be remarkably hard to do.

Aww.

Isn't the cure pretty simple, though? Don't have kids with another asari? Their society already looks down upon purebloods and believes that two asari together don't add to the diversity of the race, and as Samara and others hypothesize, it creates ardat-yakshi. It's a preventable genetic defect... and there doesn't seem to be many Ardat-Yakshi around, so the demand for a cure might not be as high for, say the Drell and Kepral's syndrome.