2338 respuestas en este tema

[Flamewielder]

What most people do not like about Samara is actually what makes her so interesting. Yes, the Code tends to result in a "paragon" outcome... but the paragon choices offered to Shepard include a degree of compassion Samara may not always be allowed to exercise, in some circumstances.

Shepard is often given a paragon option of letting a repentant criminal go, something Samara may not agree with (depending on circumdstances). The ambiguity of her character is appealing. The sad necessity of killing her own daughter, in spite of all her feelings, is heart-rending.

Her character may feel different in ME3 because of a change in writer, but we should expect her character to have changed anyway: the post loyalty mission dialogues must fit a variety of choices made by the player; it imposes a certain rigidity to the way the character is depicted.

In ME3, the writer will be allowed more wriggle room as far as how events/decisions from ME2 will start to reflect on Samara. No doubt she'll still be grieving her loss, but most of the grieving process will already have run its course in the 400 years it took to hunt her daughter down.

Perhaps we will learn more about what role Morinth's decision to run (and hunt) played in Samara's decision to join the Order. No doubt we'll learn a bit more about Justicars. Samara seemed at peace with the notion that she wouldn't die in her bed, but that was before Morinth died... Samara may allow herself the luxury of companionship on a more frequent basis (friendship or perhaps even romance).

[ReallyRue]

Flamewielder wrote...

What most people do not like about Samara is actually what makes her so interesting. Yes, the Code tends to result in a "paragon" outcome... but the paragon choices offered to Shepard include a degree of compassion Samara may not always be allowed to exercise, in some circumstances.

That's one of the things I really love about her. Although she clearly favours paragon Sheps to renegade, her actual behaviour is more of a cross between the two. She upholds the law (or rather, the Code) through whatever means necessary, and whilst paragon Shep is often merciful and diplomatic, Samara is not. Like when she mentioned hunting down Nihlus because he killed an unarmed civilian. Renegade Shep woudn't have cared, meanwhile paragon Shep would have probably given him a stern lecture and perhaps reported it to the Council. The paragon certainly wouldn't have tried to execute him for it. I love that Samara brought a really fresh perspective to the "I like to help people" character/"I like to kill people" character divide. Mordin was a little like that too, but with less certainty about his actions. Samara was always very confident of her actions.

I think she is starting to open up to people too. The fact that she shared the burden of Morinth with Shepard suggests that. Even if she doesn't open herself up to romance, I can see her forming some strong platonic friendships (even if the Code does, of course, come first).

Also, I didn't realise she is getting a new writer. I hope she'll still be the Samara we know and love.

[Flamewielder]

Samara (and Justicars in general) is the ultimate pragmatist. Dangerous A-Y are given a clear choice: voluntary confinement or death. While there is no arguing the harshness of such a choice (some would even qualify it as a heartless choice), the lethal nature of the killer A-Y leaves asari society with no other option.

We certainly can argue that the writer's idea of the Third Oath of Subsumation opened the door on all sorts of abuse (rational or otherwise), but writers are, after all, only humans. The logical loopholes are not what makes Samara interesting; the way in which she embraced the Justicar path in order to master the pain and emotional torment of her plight is.

[Juls1616]

I really hope Samara "comes for you" like she said she would in ME3 because she is one of the most interesting characters in the series!

[Confused-Shepard]

I really like Samara but there's one thing I hate about her. Despite the fact that Justicars uphold only Asari law, she seems adamant to interfere in other species business. Specifically, if you take her to Tuchanka, she gets offended at the Varren pit fights (Varren seem to attack everything anyway, might as well get some entertainment out of it) and threatens to come back there and use "Many Bullets" to make them see the error of their ways.

Really? Who gave you the right to interfere? Who made you Hall Monitor of the universe as opposed to Asari Judge Dredd. I guess you could say I'm overreacting but I wish you to talk to Samara about such things and even discuss whether she considers her crewmates a threat as well.

Also, I love how she speaks highly of Miranda & Jacob despite their associations with Cerberus. Only because they don't directly have any blood on their hands. On the other hand she almost seems to reference Thane when she says, "If I'm hunting a killer, do I really wish to know he is a loving father?"

So I guess she's not a total knight templar character but still.
Instead of discussing this, Shepard is stuck gushing over how awesome Justicars are, talking about her family and maybe trying to romance her.

[l DryIce l]

 I'll admit, I am bothered by her dedication to the code. That aside, I'm never bothered by her actual personality. She seems very...controlled? Collected. Something like that. 

[Medhia Nox]

Self-control is not a popular modern trait. If it isn't hedonism - it's instantly self-righteous judgement.

Everyone has a Code of conduct they live by - and everyone's Code gets one somebodies nerves. Every Code has a level of exclusivity - there are always types of people someone won't invite into their social circle and they're convinced that they're right for doing so. Hedonists are as self-righteous as conservative moralists - and both types of people are terrible hypocrites, though in different ways.

Samara's Code is very flexible. There's room in it for her to swear allegiance to Shepard - do everything he commands and never once refuse.

I love how people get irritated that she actually has an opinion that isn't. "I agree with Shepard." She's not a mindless Shepard fan-girl who thinks the universe revolves around him. (Unlike - notably, Garrus and Tali)

((I also think this is why people rage against the VS - Kaidan or Ashley doesn't just instantly say: "You're the main character! So glad to see you!" They've become Shepard's equal on some level - I don't think most people like characters with their own "thoughts".))

Samara is my Shepard's only equal on the Normandy - and is my Shepard's next teacher (having learned all he could from Anderson)

[HogarthHughes 3]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Self-control is not a popular modern trait. If it isn't hedonism - it's instantly self-righteous judgement.

Everyone has a Code of conduct they live by - and everyone's Code gets one somebodies nerves. Every Code has a level of exclusivity - there are always types of people someone won't invite into their social circle and they're convinced that they're right for doing so. Hedonists are as self-righteous as conservative moralists - and both types of people are terrible hypocrites, though in different ways.

Samara's Code is very flexible. There's room in it for her to swear allegiance to Shepard - do everything he commands and never once refuse.

I love how people get irritated that she actually has an opinion that isn't. "I agree with Shepard." She's not a mindless Shepard fan-girl who thinks the universe revolves around him. (Unlike - notably, Garrus and Tali)

((I also think this is why people rage against the VS - Kaidan or Ashley doesn't just instantly say: "You're the main character! So glad to see you!" They've become Shepard's equal on some level - I don't think most people like characters with their own "thoughts".))

Samara is my Shepard's only equal on the Normandy - and is my Shepard's next teacher (having learned all he could from Anderson)

Is it though?  She was compelled to kill Nihlus with only the knowledge that he had executed an unarmed civilian.  His reasons didn't matter, only that he had done something the code deemed unjust and she was left with only one course of action.  The only time her code can be flexible is when she pledges herself to the wishes of another.  That just replaces one extreme with another.  It is fitting that she compares Justicars to human orders which have not been relevant for centuries (if not a millennium).

I respect Samara, but the Justicar Code has no place in a modern society.  I'm surprised that the Asari would create and support such a group given how they supposedly tend to favor diplomacy over violence.

Editado por HogarthHughes 3, 20 junio 2011 - 06:55 .

[Lord Forshadow]

Samara was one of those characters that made me feel like building the team in ME2 was like Colonel Fury building the Avengers lol She's such a superhero in her own right, and yet such a deep, personally opinionated character beyond her code. I'd love to see what she did afterward. Justicar grandmaster? Captain of the Destiny Ascension? Transcendence and becoming the Asari goddess of justice and vengeance!?

As if the whole "If Wynne was a paladin" bit of awesome isn't enough

[Medhia Nox]

@HogarthHughes3: May I ask, do you find killing to be best avoided - but would kill for a family member? If so - you have an irrational set of beliefs about the importance of your family over that of other human beings (and honestly, I don't even need to get so extreme to point this fact out for most people). In the coldest sense - your family is no more important any other, yet I'm sure you would wholeheartedly disagree when it came to decided between "us and them".

You disagree with punishing criminals? Killing an unarmed civilian is a crime - and, it's a cowardly cruel action. Her morality is simply that innocence must be protected... does that have no place in modern society? Cops aren't just allowed to kill whomever they wish - technically, neither are soldiers (though this is harder to control).

As I said - self-control is not popular in the modern "me" society.

Samara, Wynne, and even Flemeth are all characters with varying degrees of strict moral codes that abhor individuality (Yes, even Flemeth - with all her hatred of the Circles - believes that the Wardens must go and right wrongs and that people who are concerned with petty worldly endeavors to be pathetic. She goes on a tirade about it in DA:O)

====

But I stand by my opinion - everyone has a code of morality and everyone thinks people should believe what they believe. The notion that only characters like Samara (and Paragons) are self-righteous is laughable in the extreme.

Editado por Medhia Nox, 20 junio 2011 - 03:41 .

[jamesp81]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Self-control is not a popular modern trait. If it isn't hedonism - it's instantly self-righteous judgement.

Everyone has a Code of conduct they live by - and everyone's Code gets one somebodies nerves. Every Code has a level of exclusivity - there are always types of people someone won't invite into their social circle and they're convinced that they're right for doing so. Hedonists are as self-righteous as conservative moralists - and both types of people are terrible hypocrites, though in different ways.

Samara's Code is very flexible. There's room in it for her to swear allegiance to Shepard - do everything he commands and never once refuse.

I love how people get irritated that she actually has an opinion that isn't. "I agree with Shepard." She's not a mindless Shepard fan-girl who thinks the universe revolves around him. (Unlike - notably, Garrus and Tali)

((I also think this is why people rage against the VS - Kaidan or Ashley doesn't just instantly say: "You're the main character! So glad to see you!" They've become Shepard's equal on some level - I don't think most people like characters with their own "thoughts".))

Samara is my Shepard's only equal on the Normandy - and is my Shepard's next teacher (having learned all he could from Anderson)

I roleplay my orphaned Sole Survivor Shepard as coming to see her as a surrogate mother figure and mentor.  She's the only person on the crew with greater life experience than him.  Everyone leans on Shepard for guidance.  It's nice for him to have someone else to look to, for once, for some kind of guidance.

[jamesp81]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Self-control is not a popular modern trait. If it isn't hedonism - it's instantly self-righteous judgement.

Everyone has a Code of conduct they live by - and everyone's Code gets one somebodies nerves. Every Code has a level of exclusivity - there are always types of people someone won't invite into their social circle and they're convinced that they're right for doing so. Hedonists are as self-righteous as conservative moralists - and both types of people are terrible hypocrites, though in different ways.

Samara's Code is very flexible. There's room in it for her to swear allegiance to Shepard - do everything he commands and never once refuse.

I love how people get irritated that she actually has an opinion that isn't. "I agree with Shepard." She's not a mindless Shepard fan-girl who thinks the universe revolves around him. (Unlike - notably, Garrus and Tali)

((I also think this is why people rage against the VS - Kaidan or Ashley doesn't just instantly say: "You're the main character! So glad to see you!" They've become Shepard's equal on some level - I don't think most people like characters with their own "thoughts".))

Samara is my Shepard's only equal on the Normandy - and is my Shepard's next teacher (having learned all he could from Anderson)

Is it though?  She was compelled to kill Nihlus with only the knowledge that he had executed an unarmed civilian.  His reasons didn't matter, only that he had done something the code deemed unjust and she was left with only one course of action.  The only time her code can be flexible is when she pledges herself to the wishes of another.  That just replaces one extreme with another.  It is fitting that she compares Justicars to human orders which have not been relevant for centuries (if not a millennium).

I respect Samara, but the Justicar Code has no place in a modern society.  I'm surprised that the Asari would create and support such a group given how they supposedly tend to favor diplomacy over violence.

There are many problems that are not solvable by diplomacy.  That's what Justicars are for.

As for the Justicar Order's legitimacy....it's apparently accepted by Asari society.  The Asari are a direct democracy where all citizens can function as a legislator and vote on legislation.  If Asari society didn't like Justicars, they could be rid of them easily enough.

[Dean_the_Young]

Justicars provide nothing that isn't possible by standard non-diplomatic organs: police, military, and para-military government agencies. Justicars aren't the Asari STG, or even the Asari SWAT teams.

[Flamewielder]

True, but for some reason Justicars are tasked with hunting down dangerous A-Y, lists of which they are provided by (presumably) Asari authorities/judiciary. This implies some form of governments/social sanction of the Justicar Order, something we hear asari police officers comment upon (at least socially):

"I defer to the judgement of the Justicar." implies the asari legal system acknowleges Justicars as having judiciary authority.

"Justicars follow the Code... OUR Code." implies asari society finds the Code (or at least the values it promotes) to be socially acceptable, if not something to aspire to.

Of course, Samara herself acknowleges that public perception of Justicars and the reality are two things. Justicars can be quite merciless when prosecuting a dangerous enough criminal (such as a her own daughter). Hence the parallels drawn with the character of Judge Dredd.

It would have been fun to see exactly how representative of the Justicars Samara actually is. Do they all share Samara's commitment? Are some of them more strict and "by the book"? Are some of them involving themselves in politics, endorsing one side of a social issue or another? Are some Justicars "lax" in their duties because allow compassion to color their judgement? Can two Justicars come to opposite verdicts depending on what sutra each considers more applicable to the case? If so, do Justicars defer to some higher authority (a grandmaster), or do they resolve issues in some sort of ritual combat or duel?

In short, plenty of room to explore...

[Skirata129]

...I killed her for Morinth. every playthrough. Just throwing that out there.

[Slurms McKenzie]

@Skirata129

You monster! Murderer! This is how much I think of you:



Not very much at all!

[Medhia Nox]

@yorkJ86 - honestly, I killed the Lifeforce wanna be space vampire, Asari John Wayne Gacy every play through too. Not the least bit interested in her story - or her poor, poor genetic curse.

I had her stuffed and sent to her favorite artist with a note. "See, I make sculptures too."

Just different personalities preferring different characters. That's the only real reason. Any "explanation" from either group is simply bias and opinion.

[suprhomre]

Samara, Mordin and Jack are my absolute favourite characters in ME2. So, I support this.

[HogarthHughes 3]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@HogarthHughes3: May I ask, do you find killing to be best avoided - but would kill for a family member? If so - you have an irrational set of beliefs about the importance of your family over that of other human beings (and honestly, I don't even need to get so extreme to point this fact out for most people). In the coldest sense - your family is no more important any other, yet I'm sure you would wholeheartedly disagree when it came to decided between "us and them".

You disagree with punishing criminals? Killing an unarmed civilian is a crime - and, it's a cowardly cruel action. Her morality is simply that innocence must be protected... does that have no place in modern society? Cops aren't just allowed to kill whomever they wish - technically, neither are soldiers (though this is harder to control).

As I said - self-control is not popular in the modern "me" society.

Samara, Wynne, and even Flemeth are all characters with varying degrees of strict moral codes that abhor individuality (Yes, even Flemeth - with all her hatred of the Circles - believes that the Wardens must go and right wrongs and that people who are concerned with petty worldly endeavors to be pathetic. She goes on a tirade about it in DA:O)

====

But I stand by my opinion - everyone has a code of morality and everyone thinks people should believe what they believe. The notion that only characters like Samara (and Paragons) are self-righteous is laughable in the extreme.

I'm not completely sure of your intent, but I will say that I believe in the death penalty.  Only for those deserving of course.  I don't disagree with the purpose of the Justicar Code or its stance on criminals, just with how it decides between right and wrong.  It takes a "one size fits all" approach, which just doesn't work in an advanced society.

Samara says it herself, the Justicar Code is black and white.  It didn't matter what the civilian Nihlus shot had done, or why he had to be killed, or that Nihlus was a Spectre (and thus within his rights to do such things).  Again, the situation at the police station, where Samara would be forced to kill anyone who attempted to restrain her for more than one day.  The Code respects no authority other than its own, and takes a very hard line against those it perceives to be in the wrong.  There is no greater good, no bigger picture to the Code.  While an individual Justicar could see such things, their Code compels them to harsh action regardless.  The only way for Samara to work with a team (without running the risk of being forced to turn on them) was by binding herself to the whims of another.  Its ridiculous and completely unnecessary.

I do however understand why Samara would become a Justicar to go after Morinth, as it would provide her with training and more authority to keep up the pursuit (at least in Asari space).  Though perhaps she took the vows as a sort of penance as well, I dunno.  Either way, I still respect Samara for her selfless devotion to stopping injustice.  If the Justicars are as rare as they say and most if not all children were brought up respecting them (not to mention they would be granted leeway by local governments/security forces), then I could see how they would work.  Like Dean_the_Young said though, the Justicars provide no service that couldn't just as easily (and with less absurd restrictions) exist through government controlled organizations.

Editado por HogarthHughes 3, 20 junio 2011 - 11:02 .

[l DryIce l]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@HogarthHughes3: May I ask, do you find killing to be best avoided - but would kill for a family member? If so - you have an irrational set of beliefs about the importance of your family over that of other human beings (and honestly, I don't even need to get so extreme to point this fact out for most people). In the coldest sense - your family is no more important any other, yet I'm sure you would wholeheartedly disagree when it came to decided between "us and them".

You disagree with punishing criminals? Killing an unarmed civilian is a crime - and, it's a cowardly cruel action. Her morality is simply that innocence must be protected... does that have no place in modern society? Cops aren't just allowed to kill whomever they wish - technically, neither are soldiers (though this is harder to control).

As I said - self-control is not popular in the modern "me" society.

Samara, Wynne, and even Flemeth are all characters with varying degrees of strict moral codes that abhor individuality (Yes, even Flemeth - with all her hatred of the Circles - believes that the Wardens must go and right wrongs and that people who are concerned with petty worldly endeavors to be pathetic. She goes on a tirade about it in DA:O)

====

But I stand by my opinion - everyone has a code of morality and everyone thinks people should believe what they believe. The notion that only characters like Samara (and Paragons) are self-righteous is laughable in the extreme.

I understand you were replying to someone else, but I just wanted to give my thoughts. If I seem to have misunderstood you, be sure to correct me...

In what way is valuing one person over another irrational. The act of valuing itself is something that's almost always subjective. A family member is much more valuable to me than a random person, so if I had to choose one or the other, it would and should be the family member. But there's no single, clear-cut situation, is there? There's also a point where you'd be inclined to choose another over a family member. Perhaps a whole group of people. 

Anyways, my point is that all moral situations vary. A code (any sort of code) that doesn't allow a person to examine each situation individually isn't a good one. It irked me that she was willing to kill a cop for getting restraining her for over a day (although the cop was equally loyal to her her job). 

However, I do agree with your last point. 

[This is the End My Friend]

 A lot of the negativity surrounding Samara's character stems from the threats made to Detective Anaya, and I find it interesting that Anaya not only does not hold a grudge but at times it appears like she is making light of the situation.
And I'm sure I'm butching these quotes, but whatever..........

Anaya speaking to Shep: "you know it would really help me out if you got this information for her, I'm not keen on dying"
Shepard speaking to Anaya: "if she is such a threat why haven't you got her locked up or something"
Samara: "any attempt to put restraints on me will be viewed as a threat, and I will act accordingly"
Anaya: "yeah, what she says"

Anaya speaks in an almost care-free/joking tone it caught me off guard, I don't know how I expected Anaya to act in such situations but this wasn't it. And the cop/justicar dynamic is really intriguing to me, and I would love to see more of this. It wouldn't surprise me if this sort of standoff is almost routine in a way, where they both are kind of just going through the motions, getting all the procedure out of the way, before they can come to an agreement. And this may be a far out there theory, but it almost seems like the two of them are playing a rather subtle joke on Shepard. 

Editado por GeneralSlotts193, 22 junio 2011 - 05:54 .

[Mathy16]

I liked her because she was so calm and disciplined...
I loved her first cutscene..

[Dean_the_Young]

Flamewielder wrote...

True, but for some reason Justicars are tasked with hunting down dangerous A-Y, lists of which they are provided by (presumably) Asari authorities/judiciary. This implies some form of governments/social sanction of the Justicar Order, something we hear asari police officers comment upon (at least socially):

"I defer to the judgement of the Justicar." implies the asari legal system acknowleges Justicars as having judiciary authority.

"Justicars follow the Code... OUR Code." implies asari society finds the Code (or at least the values it promotes) to be socially acceptable, if not something to aspire to.

Of course, Samara herself acknowleges that public perception of Justicars and the reality are two things. Justicars can be quite merciless when prosecuting a dangerous enough criminal (such as a her own daughter). Hence the parallels drawn with the character of Judge Dredd.

It would have been fun to see exactly how representative of the Justicars Samara actually is. Do they all share Samara's commitment? Are some of them more strict and "by the book"? Are some of them involving themselves in politics, endorsing one side of a social issue or another? Are some Justicars "lax" in their duties because allow compassion to color their judgement? Can two Justicars come to opposite verdicts depending on what sutra each considers more applicable to the case? If so, do Justicars defer to some higher authority (a grandmaster), or do they resolve issues in some sort of ritual combat or duel?

In short, plenty of room to explore...

The Justicars aren't tasked by external authority: they task themselves. They are explicitly not government controlled.

Justicars are superheroes, culturally and in practice. They're the real-life version of the Justice League: they did great things in the past, and are living legends. Whose going to tell Superman or Batman they're wrong? They're heroes. Self-driven, self-selected, self-directed, and self-regulated.

But, and here's the crux, the Justicars basically follow a form of higher authority: I'd call it an appeal to divine right (the idea that God's laws supercede all others), except it isn't explicitly deity-based. But the highest authority of the Justicars is the Code, not Asari government. If they deemed the Asari government as Unjust, they'd have no more refusal to take it out than, say, blow up a police station unjustly holding a Justicar.

It's the common delimma explored in the D.C. universe: the Justice League is almost universally respected and revered by the people, but viewed (rightly) with deep suspicion by the governments on the knowledge that the only thing insuring the good behavior of the Heroes is, well, the heroes.