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[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dean_The_Young: Zealots tend not to have a clause in their belief structure that allows them to basically "try on" another person's belief system for a time.

That alone creates a completely new character archetype in my opinion.

I disagree. Who was it who said something like 'zealots are easy to sway to ones side, because they are already used to rationalizing contradictions'?

Samara never 'tried on' Shepard's  belief system, she agreed to obey him even in contradition of what her ideology would normally demand as part of her own ideology. That's pretty much par-for-course for zealot agents of every ideology known to man when working for some greater good with non-believers. Pro-democracy military official who believe the best way to save a democracy is to launch a coup. Pro-communisum agents who support, well, non-communist dictators. Christian ideologues who agree to work for a heathen state. Etc.

Old news.

Could you imagine some Renegade - let's say, Rambo - meeting Gandhi and saying: "I don't believe in your way of acting - but I will assimilate to your code of ethics while I am with you."

Could you imagine Gandhi talking to Rambo and saying the same thing (never mind that one is a fictional character and one was real).

No, but then I can't particularly imagine Rambo as a Renegade, nor did Samara assimilate Shepard's ethics.

It's hard enough for forum goers to come to a consensus of opinion - what Samara does is beyond human capability.

No, what Samara does is pretty standard for ideologues who need to work with non-believers for the good of their own ideology.

[Medhia Nox]

But she was not doing it for the good of her own ideology. Well - I suppose you can certainly argue that before her loyalty mission, but afterward - she could have, and would have, just left once she had obtained what she desired. In fact - I would argue that if she were the type of person you describe... she would 'have' to leave... as her morality would "suddenly" be in conflict and some excuses would have been made.

"I am sorry Shepard - but here we part ways. Your goals are admirable - but your methods are deplorable." - or some such.

---

I'm not so much disagreeing about ideologues - but, instead, I am disagreeing that Samara is this way.

[Flamewielder]

I would agree with Dean's description, though. The Order believes it their duty to strictly enforce the asari Code (a deonthological version of the asari moral/ethical conscensus). As things happen, the Code appears to be lining up rather nicely with the conscensus. This is likely not random, but was facilitated by the Order's various oaths of subsummation that allowed their members to "bend" on occasions, therby allowing their continued existence.

Correspondignly, whoever accepts a Justicar's oath (be it a moral person like a government or an actual individual) does so with the knowledge that the further he has a justicar bend, the harder the whiplash will be to control. If the justicar is forced to perform something objectionable, there better be some acceptable justification coming along at the end (i.e. innocent lives saved).

A more interesting question to ask is: why did Samara so readily accept to swear herself into Shepard's service? As skilled as asari can be in touching people's minds and understand their motivations, she has no prior knowledge of Shepard's intentions or morality. She can in fact swear herself to a dangerous psycho, depending on how you want to play your Shep.

Sure, she may believe Shep honestly wants to save some human colonists, but she hardly has more than Shep's word for it...

A Justicar operating in asari space will have done her homework and analyzed a leader's psych profile before subsummating herself to her service in a Code-suitable endeavor. It's a well-considered decision to commit. Not so with Shep: their meeting was entirely fortuitous. So what was her motivation?

[Deucetipher]

My understanding is that she swore herself to Shep's service in order to prevent having to kill innocent policewomen, since they had detained her. She would rather risk the psycho Shep then the certain slaughter. Also, perhaps she counted on her threat to keep Shep in line (something along "if you make me do something against the code, I'll kill you later."). After all, she is a near-millennial biotic; I would expect that a warning like that would keep your average dweller of the ME universe in line.

[Sepewrath]

^That is exactly what it is was, that's exactly what she said. She turns Shepard down and then decides to go, when Shepard questions her on why the change of heart. She says exactly what Deucetipher said, she would have to kill Anaya and all the other cops who tried to stop her, when she left the next day. And she couldn't just leave, she swore to see through Shepard's mission, she has no choice but to follow through.

[nocbl2]

"Azenza"

No. She should never be an LI.

Samara' supposed to be a strong woman who is a fighter. She's had her time. It's gone past, and her only quest now is supposed to destroy evil and be a hard to get blue alien samurai.

[PauseforEffect]

Flamewielder wrote...

I would agree with Dean's description, though. The Order believes it their duty to strictly enforce the asari Code (a deonthological version of the asari moral/ethical conscensus). As things happen, the Code appears to be lining up rather nicely with the conscensus. This is likely not random, but was facilitated by the Order's various oaths of subsummation that allowed their members to "bend" on occasions, therby allowing their continued existence.

Correspondignly, whoever accepts a Justicar's oath (be it a moral person like a government or an actual individual) does so with the knowledge that the further he has a justicar bend, the harder the whiplash will be to control. If the justicar is forced to perform something objectionable, there better be some acceptable justification coming along at the end (i.e. innocent lives saved).

A more interesting question to ask is: why did Samara so readily accept to swear herself into Shepard's service? As skilled as asari can be in touching people's minds and understand their motivations, she has no prior knowledge of Shepard's intentions or morality. She can in fact swear herself to a dangerous psycho, depending on how you want to play your Shep.

Sure, she may believe Shep honestly wants to save some human colonists, but she hardly has more than Shep's word for it...

A Justicar operating in asari space will have done her homework and analyzed a leader's psych profile before subsummating herself to her service in a Code-suitable endeavor. It's a well-considered decision to commit. Not so with Shep: their meeting was entirely fortuitous. So what was her motivation?

Perhaps because of the time constraint? Maybe because of her years of experience has made her able to sum up a person with an accuracy humans would declare the domain of an oracle? We frequently have the player's ego boosted every time being told that Shepard is special for no exact reason nailed down. Soooo, unless Shepard's been installed with reaper tech and has his/her own version of an indoctrination aura, I'm gonna guess, plot convenience

[Flamewielder]

Plot convenience is probably the primary reason, on a metagaming level. Compare ME2's structure to Dan Simmon's "Hyperion" and you'll see they are both a collection of disparate stories that are only loosely bound together. Some shortcuts were taken by writers to tie the various stories and characters into the plot.

But if we imagined an in-universe reason, what would it be? Yes, Samara admits being intrigued by Shep's request to join the team and we can perhaps assume that protecting colonies from being abducted falls within what the Code would consider its primary mission: protecting innocents.

But there's also some Code manipulation going on: Samara wants to avoid having to fight her way out of the police station and Shep's team provides her a way out of the dilemma, while at the same time giving Shep's team an opportunity to demonstrate:

a) skill, in investigating/apprehending the smugglers who arranged Morinth's transport off-world
willingness to serve the cause of justice, even if it is ultimately just to secure her participation

If Shep's team fails, then they're no use to her and would likely fail to stop the Collectors anyway; she's better off working on her own. She'll attempt to escape once the required day has elapsed and either be killed herself or injure/kill some police officers who attempt to stop her. Once out, she'll pick pickup Morinth's trail as best she can.

My point is, she wouldn't swear the Third Oath to a known felon but would be comfortable swearing it to a reputable leader or law-enforcement officer. Shep's neither: he/she's a (former) Spectre, which in no way garantees his/her character is honorable or "just"...

I think what tips the balance is Samara's anxiety over the real possibility of losing track of Morinth again. It's an emotional, gut decision that pushes her to take a risk with Shepard.

[diamondedge]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And how does Samara avoid the cliches of deontological zealots?

I agree to an extent, however it is far less aparent and annoying than the rebel girl with "difficult" past and a woman with daddy issues that is as cold and is beautiful.
Unlike the obvious choices, Samara is actually a character Shepard can learn from, based on her immense experience and willpower.

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

But she was not doing it for the good of her own ideology. Well - I suppose you can certainly argue that before her loyalty mission, but afterward - she could have, and would have, just left once she had obtained what she desired.

Doing so would have been in violation of the indoctrination of her own ideology, which entailed that her service to Shepard would end when Shepard's mission (against the Collectors) concluded, not her own (which was never a part of the deal).

[Dean_the_Young]

Flamewielder wrote...


A more interesting question to ask is: why did Samara so readily accept to swear herself into Shepard's service? As skilled as asari can be in touching people's minds and understand their motivations, she has no prior knowledge of Shepard's intentions or morality. She can in fact swear herself to a dangerous psycho, depending on how you want to play your Shep.

That one's simple, really. Samara doesn't want to blow up a cop station, and is looking for the first opportunity to avoid it. Within the confines of her code she's desperate, both to avoid a massacre and to keep on her daughter's trail, so she takes the first (and almost certainly only) opportunity to avoid it and fulfil her own desire of not losing Morinth. She may not be able to guarantee that Shepard won't abuse her offer, but given that she's willing to conditionally sign up even before she knows what said mission is, what Shepard might use her for in the future was less pressing than the immediate two items she wanted solved now: tracking Morinth, and avoiding a Code-mandated massacre of innocents in an escape attempt.

A Justicar operating in asari space will have done her homework and analyzed a leader's psych profile before subsummating herself to her service in a Code-suitable endeavor. It's a well-considered decision to commit.

That's more of an prjection on your part . There's nothing to suggest that subsummating is regular or common by the Justicars, or even that it is given to the leaders of Asari space.

[Flamewielder]

You're right. The police officer actually comments on it, further supporting this conclusion. The Third Oath (the one sworn to an individual) appears to be rarely invoked. I infer that the First and Second Oath likely subsume the justicar(s) to higher levels of authority or constitutional documents (such as the US Oath of Alliegance). That would make them more common, at least common enough to become part of popular lore.

[nocbl2]

What role do you think Samara will play in ME 3 if you kept her and killed Morinth?

I think that if you're a paragon most of the way, she'll vouch for you as being a good person. I don't know if she'll take kindly to the events of Arrival, however.

[Zakatak757]

Morinth's mom has got it goin' on.
She's all I want an' I've been waiting so long
Morinth can't you see? You're just not the girl for me
I know it might be wrong but
I'm in love with Morinth's mom

[Flamewielder]

^^^

Because of the metagaming problem of the exclusive choice between Samara/Morinth, I'm not expecting much beyond a good cameo. Their personalities are so different, it's doubtfull they could be used interchangeably as temp squaddies in the same scenario (unlike the VS).

The cameo could either show Samara's ultimately relieved by the events of ME2, or have her second-guessing herself about the course she chose for her life when she joined the justicars. Either alternatives would provide interesting character development.

[Xilizhra]

I do hope it's a good cameo, even though it'll probably be something of a waste for both parties. But at least when the game comes out, I can write my own story more accurately.

[Asenza]

I'm still praying/sacrificing animals and people in the hopes that Samara'll be a full romance. I mean, if Kelly's coming back and gets more of a romance arc, there's absolutely no justification as to why Samara couldn't do the same.

Does anyone have that quote by someone that said that all romances will be treated equally? I mean, in what context? When was it said, and by whom? Because, so far as ME2 shows, it wasn't true on a lot of fronts unless they truly mean to correct it in ME3.

[...And Justice For All]

i support having samara as a romance option in ME3, i was kinda dissapointed when she rejected me in ME2

[Flamewielder]

If they do so, I'll be pleasantly surprised. I'm just not holding my breath...

[Asenza]

...And Justice For All wrote...

i support having samara as a romance option in ME3, i was kinda dissapointed when she rejected me in ME2

The only thing that distressed me more than Samara turning my Shepard down was the screams of the factory workers on a renegade play of Zaeed's loyalty mission. At first I thought it was a guilty conscience, but no, they followed me through the whole level! Man, that was disturbing... almost made me go back and change my mind.

... almost. Then I remembered that Zaeed's been wanting revenge for over twenty years, that Vido might probably pull something like that again (think Bring Down the Sky's Balak), that I didn't start the fire, and that I'm Commander Shepard but I can't save everyone, and sometimes people have to go without.

[Xilizhra]

and sometimes people have to go without.

Like Zaeed. He absolutely has to.

[Asenza]

Xilizhra wrote...

and sometimes people have to go without.

Like Zaeed. He absolutely has to.

Noooo.... I mean... I just didn't trust that Vido wouldn't do something like that again, on a larger scale. Killing Vido will hopefully do more than just satisfy Zaeed's need for revenge. Vido was killing people if they tried to escape, letting him get away scott-free felt... hollow. Maybe Zaeed will take back the Blue Suns, and we can use them in ME3. Maybe the group will die out/disband and maybe I won't have to fight so damn many in ME3.

Didn't mean to get so off topic, but on top of all that, I was annoyed that people can't ever save themselves. They would have had to if my Shepard and Zaeed had been a little faster in going through that door.

[Xilizhra]

Noooo.... I mean... I just didn't trust that Vido wouldn't do something like that again, on a larger scale. Killing Vido will hopefully do more than just satisfy Zaeed's need for revenge. Vido was killing people if they tried to escape, letting him get away scott-free felt... hollow. Maybe Zaeed will take back the Blue Suns, and we can use them in ME3. Maybe the group will die out/disband and maybe I won't have to fight so damn many in ME3.

It's unlikely that it'll disband, it's too big. He'll be replaced. Maybe with someone more lenient, maybe someone harsher. Maybe there'll be a gang war and kill a lot of Blue Suns. Maybe it'll kill a lot of innocent bystanders. We don't know. What we do know is whom we can save here and now, and that's why I Paragon things.

[Asenza]

Maybe, maybe. We'll see.

Samara really should have said something when I did that ;; Maybe in ME3 squadmates will actually have something to say when they're not on a mission that pertains to them if an action on Shepard (or the other squadmate) does something worthy of comment.