2338 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Just for the sake of debate, unless you have access to sources I'm unfamiliar with, the idea that no cure has been sought, or even that no outside assistance has been solicited, seems to be an assumption on your part. It doesn't make much sense that the Asari -wouldn't- look or a cure, and hiding the condition from the galactic community is a general statement that does not rule out discreet inquiries having been made. It's not as though the term is unknown outside the Asari. I believe it is used by multiple non-asari during the course of ME2.

When there is evidence of a cure being sought, I'll concede.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

True, but the burden of proof is on the one claiming for there to be something.

Touché.

I will certainly admit that my theory is just as much an assumption.

Actually, isn't Xil the one claiming something in this case? (That the Asari have not tried for any sort of cure.)

[TK514]

Dean_the_Young wrote...Actually, isn't Xil the one claiming something in this case? (That the Asari have not tried for any sort of cure.)

Unfortunately, the codex entry does specifically state that the Asari hide the condition from the galactic community.  It's a blanket statement, so not really as useful either way as it could be, but it require some assumption based on various factors to suggest that there might be discreet inquiries that go against that general rule.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You don't believe that there are powers so powerful and dangerous they should only be held by an accountable agency?

Daring to presume to answer for another, I'll say that there are many levels of accountability, and other agencies in a society beside the state. In other words, it is good for a society to have some means of holding the state accountable. 

If anything, I would criticize the Justicar Order on the basis that they do not seem to perform this role in asari society. Instead they function as a fully self-contained, co-equal criminal justice system. And I too have a hard time seeing how asari society (or any other society, ftm) has any need for such an institution. 

Samara having to look hundreds of years back to find anything even resembling a human analogue to the Justicar Order is very telling. the Justicars are an anachronism. And it is only the idiosyncrasies of the asari character that has kept them around for so long.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
They are duty bound to help police for twenty-four hours, and then are free to resume whatever they want. That there is a time-limit of such narrow width rather implies against constant cooperation by rule of the Code.

I'm not sure if that's quite right. It's my understanding that Justicars are duty bound to comply with a police officer's orders for one day, after which they are equally bound to resume their 'Justicaring.'  I would say that this means the Code is held to be the equal of more conventional criminal justice institutions.  No more, no less. 

---On a side note: Given that Samara was hardly confined while in Detective Anaya's "custody," I suspect that the good detective had no real intention of forcefully resisting Samara's resumption of her investigation should Shepard fail to placate her. Just a theory.---

Put in a complimentary light, I'd say this speaks well of the asari; their society is  apparently able to reach stable accommodation among groups with highly divergent agendas.  Put in a negative way, I'd say the asari suffer from severe cultural schizophrenia.  The truth lies in-between, but much closer to the former I think.

In any case, from a narrative point of view, I have to think that the existence of an organization like the Justicar Order is a good reminder that; as much as the asari may at times seem like us, they are really a very alien people.

Modifié par General User, 24 septembre 2011 - 08:32 .

[Sepewrath]

Well you have to keep in the mind the difference between lifespans. Hundreds of years for humans are a dozens of generations, ideology will have a massive shift. But look at Enrinya, she was a corporate lawyer when humans were burning witches; ideology shifts will be a slow burn for them. You cant apply human progression to an alien species, particularly one whose life span makes an entire human life look like puberty. That is a logical fallacy.

[Dean_the_Young]

TK514 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...Actually, isn't Xil the one claiming something in this case? (That the Asari have not tried for any sort of cure.)

Unfortunately, the codex entry does specifically state that the Asari hide the condition from the galactic community.  It's a blanket statement, so not really as useful either way as it could be, but it require some assumption based on various factors to suggest that there might be discreet inquiries that go against that general rule.

'Hide the condition from the galactic community' =/= 'do not try for a cure.'

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

I'm not sure if that's quite right. It's my understanding that Justicars are duty bound to comply with a police officer's orders for one day, after which they are equally bound to resume their 'Justicaring.'  I would say that this means the Code is held to be the equal of more conventional criminal justice institutions.  No more, no less.

That can't be, by the established precedent. No one treats the Justicars and Asari Justice System as equal, neither Justicars or people of the Justice system.

The first obstacle to equality is, of course, Samara and the police station problem: Samra consents because of the Code, not the justice system, and she will break out afterwards because of the Code, not the justice system. The second is the blatant double standard in the courts: evidence of a crime provided by an officer of the law, even received  from a Council Spectre, is unacceptable, while a Justicar's word is accepted without question.

---On a side note: Given that Samara was hardly confined while in Detective Anaya's "custody," I suspect that the good detective had no real intention of forcefully resisting Samara's resumption of her investigation should Shepard fail to placate her. Just a theory.---

...why not, given all the emphasis the mission put on that she would do just that, both before and after Samara left her custody?

[General User]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well you have to keep in the mind the difference between lifespans. Hundreds of years for humans are a dozens of generations, ideology will have a massive shift. But look at Enrinya, she was a corporate lawyer when humans were burning witches; ideology shifts will be a slow burn for them. You cant apply human progression to an alien species, particularly one whose life span makes an entire human life look like puberty. That is a logical fallacy.

Think of it in terms of generations then.  The knightly orders Samara likens Justicars to haven't been a going concern for human societies since the 1400's - 1700's depending where on the globe you throw a dart.  That's anywhere from 12 to 24 generations, depending on how you count them.

Though I think there is much truth in the idea that the asari are slow adopt new ideas, disinclined to embrace change, and even slow (by other species standards) to emotionally process events.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That can't be, by the established precedent. No one treats the Justicars and Asari Justice System as equal, neither Justicars or people of the Justice system.

The first obstacle to equality is, of course, Samara and the police station problem: Samra consents because of the Code, not the justice system, and she will break out afterwards because of the Code, not the justice system. The second is the blatant double standard in the courts: evidence of a crime provided by an officer of the law, even received  from a Council Spectre, is unacceptable, while a Justicar's word is accepted without question.

I would argue that the two systems are equal, at least in one regard: the judgments of both the conventional asari legal system and those of the Justicar Order are held to be binding. (of course many Justicar judgments are rather 'final', but still…)

What I mean by 'equal', neither has say or rule over the other. Perhaps "cosovereign" (if that's even a word) would be a better way to put it.  The law and courts may not command the Code, and the Code may not command the courts or their officers. In cases where the Code and the conventional justice system conflict (as happened in Nos Astra) violence is the only recourse left to resolve the conflict. Violence, and a certain plucky human that is. 

---On a side note: Given that Samara was hardly confined while in Detective Anaya's "custody," I suspect that the good detective had no real intention of forcefully resisting Samara's resumption of her investigation should Shepard fail to placate her. Just a theory.---

...why not, given all the emphasis the mission put on that she would do just that, both before and after Samara left her custody?

I think the game pretty clearly establishes that Detective Anaya believes she will almost certainly be killed if she attempts to seriously prevent Samara from continuing her investigation after the grace period.  I would argue that having Samara sitting, without any restraints whatsoever, on a shelf mere yards from the front door sets a poor precedent for seriously confining her. And given Samara's determination to avoid unnecessary lose of life (particularly Det. Anaya's), I question just how "vigorous" Samara ultimately would be in the application of the details of her, Code-obligated, escape.

Like most things in life, it's a lot like "Firefly."
"Don't your Book have a few things to say about killin'"
"It does. It is, however, somewhat vague on the subject of kneecaps."

Bottom line: Det. Anaya would strongly prefer to live, and Samara would strongly prefer not to kill her. They're both rather intelligent women. I'm sure accommodation could be made.

---On a side note to the side note: People on Illium can be detained indefinitely without charge or trial?!? What's up with that?---

Modifié par General User, 24 septembre 2011 - 10:12 .

[Sepewrath]

General User wrote...
Though I think there is much truth in the idea that the asari are slow adopt new ideas, disinclined to embrace change, and even slow (by other species standards) to emotionally process events.

That's my point, 12 or 24, however you want to count it, that's a lot of people. The ones with the old ideas, their long dead, that's why new ones are easier to come about. For the Asari, the ones with the ideas from 700yrs ago, that's your next door neighbor. That is why their so slow to change, they live way too long for quick changes. Or maybe I should "quick" has an entirely different meaning to someone who lives for 10 centuries. Their concept of time is way different from humans, so their concept of change would be as well.

[PauseforEffect]

This is why I have a hard time imagining what someone would be like after a few hundred years, let alone a millenium. Who amongst you has tried to argue against someone more experienced than you? Who has ever been around someone who has interacted with others for so long that they can read others like a book?
What makes it difficult for me to accept the Asari's long lifespan is that I'm holding a ridiculously high expectation for them. Living that long should make you seem omniscient to everyone younger than you. Even if Samara hasn't had a lot of social contact with people, then her combat skills should be frighteningly efficient enough to practically finish Shepard's fights. Even if they're slow to change it does not mean that they wouldn't be observant.

[Flamewielder]

"We are an advanced species, but we don't have magic. When the trait manifests at maturity it is too late for mitigation. It only occurs in purebloods like myself; perhaps that is the root of the stigma against asari exclusive pairings, I don't know."

Seems to me the best way to hide the condition would be to cure it... and confidentiality agreements exist for just such purposes.

Given that the more you try to keep something secret from Salarians, the more inquisitive they'll get until they expose said secret, you'd think they've been looking at A-Y for several centuries now, wether the asari wanted it or not.

I believe that asari only try to hush-up lethal forms of the A-Y syndrome, which appears to be an otherwise common ailment among asari (1% of the general population) and is likely the subject of plentiful investigation. If a cure has not been found yet, it's unlikely to be because the asari are not making all possible efforts to do so.

[Xilizhra]

If a cure has not been found yet, it's unlikely to be because the asari are not making all possible efforts to do so.

I hope we get a chance to ask Liara about this. She's the only one I'd trust to give me an accurate view of the matter.

[Flamewielder]

PrimalEden wrote...
This is why I have a hard time imagining what someone would be like after a few hundred years, let alone a millenium. Who amongst you has tried to argue against someone more experienced than you? Who has ever been around someone who has interacted with others for so long that they can read others like a book?
What makes it difficult for me to accept the Asari's long lifespan is that I'm holding a ridiculously high expectation for them. Living that long should make you seem omniscient to everyone younger than you. Even if Samara hasn't had a lot of social contact with people, then her combat skills should be frighteningly efficient enough to practically finish Shepard's fights. Even if they're slow to change it does not mean that they wouldn't be observant.

As Alenko says in ME1: "There are saints and jerks, just like us humans." Older asari appear quite competent in what they do, having practiced their particular trade for centuries. Aria (Aleena?) sounds like she might be as old as Samara, yet shows a quite different personality and outlook.

[PauseforEffect]

True there, Flamewielder.
Night for now, good wishes to you

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

If a cure has not been found yet, it's unlikely to be because the asari are not making all possible efforts to do so.

I hope we get a chance to ask Liara about this. She's the only one I'd trust to give me an accurate view of the matter.

Why? As a pureblood herself, she has a bias towards her perspective of what is reasonable effort and not.

[Golden Owl]

Hello Samara fans....Someone just challenged me on another thread in regards to 'Ruthlessness'...I have decided to examine it further in regards to the NPC's involved....So question for you: "Why in your perceptions is Samara not ruthless?....Examples included please?"

[Xilizhra]

Oh, she is. Highly. Just in an odd way.

[Flamewielder]

Ruthless? Not entirely so. Her bothering to find a loophole preventing her from having to fight her way out of that police station on Illium was not required by the Code. Ruthless Shepard would have simply fought his/her way out (probably causing as much batarian colateral damage as possible).

But the Code IS dispassionate, enforcing a view of justice that leaves no room for compassion. It's pretty mush up to the individual justicar to decide if she wants to manipulate the Code in order to result in a more or less compassionate outcome.

It's easy to envision a "stricter" justicar than Samara, so I'd describe her as "somewhat ruthless", rather than "utterly ruthless".

[whywhywhywhy]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If a cure has not been found yet, it's unlikely to be because the asari are not making all possible efforts to do so.

I hope we get a chance to ask Liara about this. She's the only one I'd trust to give me an accurate view of the matter.

Why? As a pureblood herself, she has a bias towards her perspective of what is reasonable effort and not.

Where and when has she demonstrated this bias ?  I'd like to know so I can see how this will affect our getting a glimpse into the effort the Asari has put into curing ths problem.  I imagine the bias if any will be negligible, something akin to an Asari's perspective vs a human/other species's.  I really disagree with you, as a pureblood and understanding the bigotry she faces with her people I'm inclined to think she'd be more reasonable towards A-Y.

Unless that is the bias you claim, because then it gets interesting...

[diamondedge]

the bigotry she faces with her people I'm inclined to think she'd be more reasonable towards A-Y.

Where was that? As far as I know her only Ardat-Yakshi problem is with those who openly excercise their genetic disorder and get high off killing their victims. I didn't get the impression she would kill them all just because they were Ardat Yashki. I'd say her reasons are perfectly justified.

[jamesp81]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]jamesp81 wrote...

Justicars aren't sworn to the state. Justicars are sworn to the Code, and the Code's relationship with the state is non-subserviant.


[/quote]
The difference between you and me is that you view this as inherently bad.  I don't view it as inherently good or bad either way.  Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing will depend on other factors.

[/quote]You don't believe that there are powers so powerful and dangerous they should only be held by an accountable agency?
[/quote]

Govt agencies have historically not been particularly accountable.  At the worst, the Justicar Order is equally as bad.  At best, it's an improvement, at least for the Asari (for other reasons, I don't think this system could work for humans, see below).

You ultimately can't control people with laws and force.  You can to some degree, but a person's true nature always comes out as to whether they are a good or bad person.  When the bad ones reveal themselves, you can only deal with the aftermath and hand out a just punishment for their crime.

Justicars, however, are different in one respect.  Their behavior is not really controlled by law.  They are controlled by their own conscience.  As a force for shaping people's behavior, this is far more powerful than laws written by politicians.  This is likely a much better system, in general, with the assumption that you tightly control who becomes a justicar.  Now, in the real world, that system would be problematic as there's no real way to exert that level of control.  Asari, on the other hand, possess the capability for a lot of mental / telepathic mojo, so they may have ways to determine who would make a good justicar and who would not.

So while this system wouldn't work for humans, there is reason to believe it could work rather well for Asari.

Modifié par jamesp81, 03 octobre 2011 - 04:01 .

[PauseforEffect]

@ jamesp81
So, similar to the turian's sense of responsibility in their government and the Drell's concept of body being separate from the mind is the Asari's trust in the Justicar's sense of conscience?
Very insightful.

[Flamewielder]

By allowing the Justicars' continued existence, the asari have embraced the notion of vigilante-style justice (granted that it is exercised withing the strict parameters of the Code). Similarly, the Council embraces the same with Spectres.

While it is true that the Order is not overseen by the asari government, it's also true it only survives because the asari goverment allows it so. And because the legal system recognizes the judgement of a justicar as having case-specific power of law, the end result is the same: government-tolerated vigilanteism.

I'm sure the Salarians also approve the practicality of this, being practical minded in all things. Unsurprisingly, "good" turians have a generally low opinion of Spectres as an institution; turians like their rules and they hate anything that isn't bound by them.