2338 respuestas en este tema

[Dean_the_Young]

Mathy16 wrote...

I liked her because she was so calm and disciplined...
I loved her first cutscene..

Disciplined? I'd call it obedient. Related, but not synonymous. She's too subserviant to the Code (and, through the Code and the Oath of Subsumission) to really warrant an independent label.

[Dean_the_Young]

yorkj86 wrote...

Actually, Justicars do have one formal task, given to them by asari society, or the Justicar Order itself - the pursuit of violent Ardat-Yakshi. "Only the most aggressive cases are sentenced to sanitaria and prisons or to the execution lists of justicars. "

Nothing suggests any organized element of Asari society has tasked them, as opposed to the Order taking it upon itself.

[Dean_the_Young]

yorkj86 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mathy16 wrote...

I liked her because she was so calm and disciplined...
I loved her first cutscene..

Disciplined? I'd call it obedient. Related, but not synonymous. She's too subserviant to the Code (and, through the Code and the Oath of Subsumission) to really warrant an independent label.

She's obedient to the ideal of discipline. 

She really isn't. She's obedient to the ideal of Justice as interpreted by the Code, and disciplined in its pursuit. Lawful indiscpline of others is perfectly acceptable, and is not an objective in and of itself.

[Dean_the_Young]

Whatever.

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Justicars provide nothing that isn't possible by standard non-diplomatic organs: police, military, and para-military government agencies. Justicars aren't the Asari STG, or even the Asari SWAT teams.

Actually, the codex states that the Justicar Order has more operational knowledge than the Spectres.  They're a high level special forces group that get all the really tough jobs in Asari space.

And, again, if Asari society did not want them around, the Asari could easily change the law and be rid of them.  As strong as they are, there are very few and they don't have a full military complete with warships and heavy ground forces.  The regular Asari military could do away with them quickly enough if the Justicars were outlawed.

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...

True, but for some reason Justicars are tasked with hunting down dangerous A-Y, lists of which they are provided by (presumably) Asari authorities/judiciary. This implies some form of governments/social sanction of the Justicar Order, something we hear asari police officers comment upon (at least socially):

"I defer to the judgement of the Justicar." implies the asari legal system acknowleges Justicars as having judiciary authority.

"Justicars follow the Code... OUR Code." implies asari society finds the Code (or at least the values it promotes) to be socially acceptable, if not something to aspire to.

Of course, Samara herself acknowleges that public perception of Justicars and the reality are two things. Justicars can be quite merciless when prosecuting a dangerous enough criminal (such as a her own daughter). Hence the parallels drawn with the character of Judge Dredd.

It would have been fun to see exactly how representative of the Justicars Samara actually is. Do they all share Samara's commitment? Are some of them more strict and "by the book"? Are some of them involving themselves in politics, endorsing one side of a social issue or another? Are some Justicars "lax" in their duties because allow compassion to color their judgement? Can two Justicars come to opposite verdicts depending on what sutra each considers more applicable to the case? If so, do Justicars defer to some higher authority (a grandmaster), or do they resolve issues in some sort of ritual combat or duel?

In short, plenty of room to explore...

The Justicars aren't tasked by external authority: they task themselves. They are explicitly not government controlled.

Justicars are superheroes, culturally and in practice. They're the real-life version of the Justice League: they did great things in the past, and are living legends. Whose going to tell Superman or Batman they're wrong? They're heroes. Self-driven, self-selected, self-directed, and self-regulated.

But, and here's the crux, the Justicars basically follow a form of higher authority: I'd call it an appeal to divine right (the idea that God's laws supercede all others), except it isn't explicitly deity-based. But the highest authority of the Justicars is the Code, not Asari government. If they deemed the Asari government as Unjust, they'd have no more refusal to take it out than, say, blow up a police station unjustly holding a Justicar.

It's the common delimma explored in the D.C. universe: the Justice League is almost universally respected and revered by the people, but viewed (rightly) with deep suspicion by the governments on the knowledge that the only thing insuring the good behavior of the Heroes is, well, the heroes.

Actually, one of the oaths of the Justicars is that they will not attempt to overthrow the government, IIRC.

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Justicars provide nothing that isn't possible by standard non-diplomatic organs: police, military, and para-military government agencies. Justicars aren't the Asari STG, or even the Asari SWAT teams.

Actually, the codex states that the Justicar Order has more operational knowledge than the Spectres.  They're a high level special forces group that get all the really tough jobs in Asari space.

The Codex also notes how they aren't government control. The Asari have high-level special forces groups under government control: these are called the Asari Commandos. The Justicars are something else.

Justicars see action, but that's not because they're at the beck and call of the government. They're as much a sanctioned special forces group as, say, the Avengers.

And, again, if Asari society did not want them around, the Asari could easily change the law and be rid of them.  As strong as they are, there are very few and they don't have a full military complete with warships and heavy ground forces.  The regular Asari military could do away with them quickly enough if the Justicars were outlawed.

...and your point/counterargument is? Or rather, what you think you are arguing is?

Justicars are culturally accepted. Which is what I've said. But the fact that they are culturally affected doesn't change where they derive their views of legitimacy and priorities from. A Justicar isn't right because Justicars are popular: a Justicar considers themselves correct because they are a Justicar and following the Code.

Justicars have to the asari all the symbology of what Shepard has, in a different context. Shepard can't take out the Reapers or conquer the galaxy, but what Shepard, as a symbol, can do is still quite potent. If the Asari governments were to try and crack down on the Justicars, besides in so much that they themselves are part of the Asari culture that adores the Justicars, they'd almost certainly face severe reprisals from the government. Whereas if the Justicars moved against the government, the Asari cultural reverence is such that most Asari would accept it as right and accept it.

This is a rather unhealthy social dynamic on a number of levels.

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Justicars provide nothing that isn't possible by standard non-diplomatic organs: police, military, and para-military government agencies. Justicars aren't the Asari STG, or even the Asari SWAT teams.

Actually, the codex states that the Justicar Order has more operational knowledge than the Spectres.  They're a high level special forces group that get all the really tough jobs in Asari space.

The Codex also notes how they aren't government control. The Asari have high-level special forces groups under government control: these are called the Asari Commandos. The Justicars are something else.

Justicars see action, but that's not because they're at the beck and call of the government. They're as much a sanctioned special forces group as, say, the Avengers.

And, again, if Asari society did not want them around, the Asari could easily change the law and be rid of them.  As strong as they are, there are very few and they don't have a full military complete with warships and heavy ground forces.  The regular Asari military could do away with them quickly enough if the Justicars were outlawed.

...and your point/counterargument is? Or rather, what you think you are arguing is?

Justicars are culturally accepted. Which is what I've said. But the fact that they are culturally affected doesn't change where they derive their views of legitimacy and priorities from. A Justicar isn't right because Justicars are popular: a Justicar considers themselves correct because they are a Justicar and following the Code.

Justicars have to the asari all the symbology of what Shepard has, in a different context. Shepard can't take out the Reapers or conquer the galaxy, but what Shepard, as a symbol, can do is still quite potent. If the Asari governments were to try and crack down on the Justicars, besides in so much that they themselves are part of the Asari culture that adores the Justicars, they'd almost certainly face severe reprisals from the government. Whereas if the Justicars moved against the government, the Asari cultural reverence is such that most Asari would accept it as right and accept it.

This is a rather unhealthy social dynamic on a number of levels.

They may not be government controlled, but they are government sanctioned.  Again, if Asari society (which is a direct democracy, btw) voted to outlaw the Justicars, they could be rid of them easily enough.

Clearly, what the Justicars do is approved of by Asari society which, in a direct democracy, IS the government.

I wouldn't want such a group for humanity, but the mindset of humanity and the asari is different enough that what works for one might not be acceptable to the other.

With that said, I do appreciate that the Asari have a group that derives its mandate from Natural Law, which by its nature exists independent of any government.  It is good for society, in general, that government know that over-stepping their bounds too much can have unpleasant consequences.

[xassantex]

i love Samara .
her cycle appearance alternative is really amazingly beautiful ( thumbs up to the graphic artists here ). Is this outfit typical of all justicars or is it just her personal taste, we don't know.

i like her rigour , her mystic world, her sense of duty .
almost paradoxically she seems a very sensuous female ( i.e. the outfit again, the way she moves etc)
In many ways she is a true artist .

i'm not so keen on the high heels though... that's too much 7of 9 like.

[Dean_the_Young]

yorkj86 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Actually, one of the oaths of the Justicars is that they will not attempt to overthrow the government, IIRC.

Yeah.  "The effect of the Oaths is conservative, ensuring that justicars respect the existing distribution of asari power rather than staging a coup to rearrange society according to justicar satisfation."

Which is about as binding as it is heavy, especially since we've already seen that it doesn't extend to legitimate government officials not accused of being unjust.

What one considers 'overthrowing the government' is always up for rationalization, as is 'rearranging to Justicar satisfaction.' Blowing up a police station from the inside, while certainly rearranging things and parts of people, certainly isn't forbidden if it meets other Code-obligations.

Also, "Justicars tend to be independent, requiring little help but also scorning it since such advanced skill and experience usually travels with a powerful ego. The conflicts presented by such arrogance prompted the Justicar Order to develop the Oaths of Subsumation."  The Justicars are self-regulating.

The Watchman watching the Watchman is in no way a reassuring answer if you are, in fact, concerned about the Watchman.

Editado por Dean_the_Young, 22 junio 2011 - 06:00 .

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

They may not be government controlled, but they are government sanctioned.  Again, if Asari society (which is a direct democracy, btw) voted to outlaw the Justicars, they could be rid of them easily enough.

No one voted their creation: why do you think they care? The Foundation of the Justicar Code derives its legitimacy from the conception that it is Just, not that it is popular. If the Asari state chose to crack down... that still isn't where they derive their legitimacy from.

Clearly, what the Justicars do is approved of by Asari society which, in a direct democracy, IS the government.

A government isn't a culture, not even in a direct democracy. Not, mind you, that Asari Space is a direct democracy: it's a series of city states, which themselves are a representative government.

Our first exposure to the Justicars illustrate the dissonance between the legitimate Asari state and the Justicars.

I wouldn't want such a group for humanity, but the mindset of humanity and the asari is different enough that what works for one might not be acceptable to the other.

I wouldn't want such a group for the Asari: superhero romantizations are silly, even when they are popular.

With that said, I do appreciate that the Asari have a group that derives its mandate from Natural Law, which by its nature exists independent of any government.  It is good for society, in general, that government know that over-stepping their bounds too much can have unpleasant consequences.

When Natural Law is interpreted and enforced by a self-designated force, it's no better and in many ways worse than a government. It is, at its best, benign authoritarianism being enforced.

[Crocodiles]

Is Rana still going to cos-play as Samara for SDCC?

[Slurms McKenzie]

@Crocodiles

God dang it! I wanna go to a convention! But theres none that I know of in the UK.........least I don't think there are.......are there? Anyone know?

Incidently, Samara is very cool and makes me chuckle.

Now to compliment her in Welsh!:

Dwi'n meddwl bod Samara yn blasus iawn! Ac mae'n hi'n ddoniol hefyd!

Impressed, eh?

Good Luck and Stay Safe

[idoless24]

I really love Samara. I just don't imagine her bouncing around in that deep V neck though. She's too elegant and regal for it.

[jamesp81]

No one voted their creation: why do you think they care? The Foundation of the Justicar Code derives its legitimacy from the conception that it is Just, not that it is popular. If the Asari state chose to crack down... that still isn't where they derive their legitimacy from.

It is not relevant that their creation was not voted on....which is also your opinion that has no basis in the codex.  But even if it is true, it doesn't matter.  What does matter is that if Asari society decided to be rid of them, they could.

Not, mind you, that Asari Space is a direct democracy: it's a series of city states, which themselves are a representative government.

That is incorrect.

"Aside from their Council representative, the asari have no politicians or elections, but a free-wheeling, all-inclusive legislature that citizens can participate in at will. Policy debates take place at all hours of the day, in official chat rooms and forums moderated by specially-programmed virtual intelligences. All aspects of policy are open to plebiscite at any time."

Ergo, direct democracy as practiced by the Greeks.

Our first exposure to the Justicars illustrate the dissonance between the legitimate Asari state and the Justicars.

No, our first exposure to Justicars illustrates the stupidity of certain police administrators on Illium.  It is Asari custom that Justicars have jurisdiction in Asari space.  Justicar jurisdictionally supremacy is almost certainly a matter of Asari common law at this point, although there's nothing in the codex that says as such, I can't really see how that could not be the case.

In Asari space, if you obstruct a Justicar, it's going to go badly for you.  Period.  This is the accepted reality of Asari society and legal tradition.  If the Asari didn't like that, they could easily change the law, but they don't.  The cops on Illium decided that they were somehow special since Illium is run by a corporation and isn't strictly part of Asari space.  I personally doubt Justicars are overly concerned about such transparent legal technicalities.  They seem to care only about the spirit of the law and are unimpressed with attempts to hide behind its letter.

I wouldn't want such a group for the Asari: superhero romantizations are silly, even when they are popular.

But you're not Asari, so it's not really up to you.

When Natural Law is interpreted and enforced by a self-designated force, it's no better and in many ways worse than a government. It is, at its best, benign authoritarianism being enforced.

Again, if the Justicars go beyond their mandate, it's not an issue for the Asari government in general to dispose of them.  Checks and balances, and all that.

Editado por jamesp81, 22 junio 2011 - 08:52 .

[Alucard of the dragon]

I noticed that when you evolve her passive power to lvl 4 you can chose a version called Sapiens Justicar and in its description is says "Samara's biotic abilities now rival those of an asari Matriarch, further reducing the recharge time of her powers." but isn't samara a Matriarch already? she says she is nearly 1000 years old and asari becomes a matriarch at the age of 700 so that means she was a weak Matriarch before you evolved her power? and if that is the case then why recruit her at all if she was weaker than the average Matriarch? also how did she become a justicar if she is weaker than normal asari since justicars are supposed to be elite asari warriors? P.S i am not a hater i just thought I would mention this

[Flamewielder]

Dean has a point: the Justicars do not form a branch of the asari government like the judiciary or the military, at least in the normal sense. They are not financed or controlled by the asari government. Their budgets are not audited, they are
They are an ancient (antiquated) institution that is tolerated in spite of its anachronistic dedication to the notion of absolute right & wrong. Only the fact that their Code promotes the same notions of Justice as those shared by the majority of asari allows its continued existence.
The Codex clearly states that the various Oaths of Subsumation exist to allow the continued coexistence of the Order with a legitimate, representative democratic asari state that might be considered "unjust"; because it demonstrated leniency towards a criminal the Justicars would have executed, for example. The Codex entry implies that the Order as a whole is likely already Subsumed to the asari government.
I would agree with Dean that the violent AY execution lists might be self-made and not officially provided by the government. After all, the Order has inteligence networks rivaling those of Council Spectres; it should be easy for them to "hack" medical databases to identify these dangerous runaway AY's and build the lists themselves.
Personally, I doubt it's the case because of all the embarassment the asari feel at the AY's mere existence. The government cannot help to know about these AY's: they certainly go through a lot of trouble hiding them from outsiders. At the same time, by Samara's reconing, there were only 3 known dangerous AY's in existence (her three daughters) and (in my storyline) she killed the only one that ran...
In a galaxy of tens of billions of asari, I doubt the government would bother budgeting for and supporting an elite organization solely to hunt down a mere handful of dangerous AY (the only clear argument from the Codex that suggests the Order has state sanction). That being said, the government effectively tolerates the Order's existence and recognizes a justicar's verdict as legal for all practical purposes. If the asari legal system recognizes the judgement of a justicar, then the government implicitly sanctions their existence and activities, even if they are not a goverment agency.
Dean's example of the Justice League makes for a good comparison. Justicars (and their Order) are respected by individuals because their behaviour is for the most part morally correct (at least from an asari perspective), but cautiously monitored/spied upon by authorities for signs of hostility towards them. Even our human Police Departments have their own Internal Affairs units. Most invesigations into incidents involving law-enforcement officers will be investigated by outsiders, regardless of how well-trusted these law-enforcement officers might be among the general public.

While the Justicar Order is NOT an arm of the government, it nevertheless enjoys legal rights to act as judges. Their verdict carries the weight of Law. A mere statement from Samara makes a questionable piece of evidence admissible. That's what I refer to when I speak of government sanction.
To continue with Dean's a propos superhero analogy: consider the character of Rorshach in the Watchmen. Rorshach cannot help himself when it comes to punishing criminals. His personal sense of justice compells him to walk away and reveal all about Ozy's conpiracy to save the world, even when he acknowleges that the conspiracy saved billions of innocents.
Of course, there are some key differences between Rorshach and Samara, but they both share this rigid belief that Good will somehow be "tainted" if not achieved through "just" means. Rorshach knows his former partners will stop him because, otherwise, his unveiling of the conspiracy would condemn Humanity to some future nuclear holocaust. Rorshach MUST blow the whistle, yet he is so relieved to be stopped by Doctor M, that he cries as he begs him to "do it..." *SPLAT!*
I love Samara's character because she shares some of Rorshch's inner conflict (without the childhood abuse). Of course, Rorshach's dedication to his notion of justice has turned him into a sociopath (with little concern for personal hygiene, apparently)... and there are some who see Samara as equally sociopathic (only with a freshly scrubbed appearance an perhaps a hint of mint fragrance). Samara has managed to keep a more or less objective perception of people and is generally pretty quiet in most settings whereas Rorshach sees humanity as 99% morally corrupted and gets into fights practically every night...

Yes, Samara sure is easier on the eyes than Rorshach and I think she attracts a lot of people because of this. Even I am not indifferent to her physical appeal in the game. A lot of people also dislike her for the same reason or dismiss her as Judge Dredd or Paladins in Space. But there is a lot of complexity to the whole character (probably a lot more than her writer ever realized), a lot of moral ambiguousness, a lot of inner conflict and she generates a lot of serious ethical debate instead of mere fawning adoration... To me, that's what makes a character truly interesting, if not likeable.

I apologize for the WOT, guys...

[Flamewielder]

Alucard:

It's not really a contradiction. Samara says almost a thousand years old but in the context of her conversation with Shepard, that could be anywhere between, say, 900-1000. The Matriarch stage is kinda like menopause for women: it usually happens somewhere in their late 50's - early 60's but can happen as late as late 60's or as early as their mid-40's.

The same parallel can be made between Maiden stage and human adolescence... it starts some time between 12-16 and is usually pretty much over by the time we get around 25; there is no absolute numerical age for each stage.

That Samara's powers should rival those of a Matriarch shouldn't surprise anyone, as she is almost of Matriarch age.

[Flamewielder]

As for Rana: Yep, that's still the plan, as of her last FB post. Samara'll be owning SDCC in July...