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[NICKjnp]

Nostradamus

[who would know]

That design on the left would be so refreshing. It's more insect-like, and more monastic.

[Flamewielder]

Yes. It also has a bit more of an armor look to it. The artbook is full of interesting concepts that were eventually discarded... too bad this one was.

[Dean_the_Young]

Flamewielder wrote...

I apologize for the WOT, guys...

Don't: I think you did quite well in both summarizing the nature of the Justicars, and my arguments about them. That was well put, and well thought out. You may see it in a more positive light than I do, but you see what I see.

If there was any distinction I would make, it would be the nature of Justicar Authority: the Justicar Authority rests in common law. Common law is distinct from civil law in its derivation: civil law is distinctly derived from legal laws and rules, while common law is far more about culture and precident. Neither is invalid: the boundary between the two shifts, as civil law becomes so accepted that it becomes common or vice versa. But they are distinct: the foundation for the difference is in Samara's recruitment, when Asari Civil Law (the authority of the state) clashes with the authority of the Justicar (common law acceptence).

Note a distinction: while the Justicar Code is well spelled out, acceptance of the Justicars by the Asari culture is a common law phenomenum, as opposed to a civil law (hence the police station standoff).


Personally, I'm an avowed proponent on the dominance of Civil Law. Hence part of my personal view on the justification of the Justicars.

[Dean_the_Young]

yorkj86 wrote...

Remember those unused Shadow Broker files for Samara, that had her visit Earth, and sleep with Shakespeare? It also had her as the inspiration for one of his poems. Where did that information come from, anyway?

Morinth escaping to Earth would have been far more interesting, in the Chinese sense of the word.

All Hail the Goddess-Empress!

[ReallyRue]

I've never seen that armour design on the left before. I like the bit around the shoulders, it feels more like what a member of a monastic order might wear. To me, anyway. And the design has a very unique style. I imagine Samara will probably be wearing her ME2 outfit when we see her, of course.

[Porenferser]

Samara is the only woman (if an Asari can be considered a woman:lol:) that fully convinced me yet<3
I really wanted her, but she didn't :\\
Hope she'll open herself for me in ME3, otherwise me Shep stays SingleB)

Modifié par Porenferser, 26 juin 2011 - 10:18 .

[Raizo]

Samara is one of my favorite ME2 squadmates. I've never really been a big fan of the way the Asari race looks but I think Bioware nailed her character design, I especially like the way she looks in her loyalty outfit. More so then anything however I really like her personality, I think I got more out of talking to Samara than I did most of ME2's squad members.

I really hope she has a decent size role in ME3. It would really dissapoint me if she were reduced only to a cameo appearance or if she was only around for 1 mission or 2.

[Flamewielder]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If there was any distinction I would make, it would be the nature of Justicar Authority: the Justicar Authority rests in common law. Common law is distinct from civil law in its derivation: civil law is distinctly derived from legal laws and rules, while common law is far more about culture and precident. Neither is invalid: the boundary between the two shifts, as civil law becomes so accepted that it becomes common or vice versa. But they are distinct: the foundation for the difference is in Samara's recruitment, when Asari Civil Law (the authority of the state) clashes with the authority of the Justicar (common law acceptence).

Note a distinction: while the Justicar Code is well spelled out, acceptance of the Justicars by the Asari culture is a common law phenomenum, as opposed to a civil law (hence the police station standoff).

Quite so.

Civil law is based on philosophical definitions of what is "right" and "wrong", usually spelled out in a constitutional document, or a human rights definition. Or a Code. It is fundamentally legalistic and aims at treating all individuals the same.

Common law is based on popular notions of "right" and "wrong" and will obviously reflect the culture that spawned these popular notions.

Civil law will derive its rules in a logical process. "This is Good and Fair" (capitalization intended) "Therefore It must apply to all."

Common law is an empirical collection of "whatever works". Whatever "Joe Public" percieves as "good and fair" (lowercase intended) through a culture's history. It can (and ususally is) set down in a formal set of laws, however. Asari Common Law acknowleges the validity of Samara's judgements and that implies asari law and jurisprudence include a mechanism through which such judgements can hold up in any legal examination or court of asari law. THAT is what distinguishes Batman and Judge Dredd in their respective universes. One is "merely" a costumed vigilante, while the other is part and parcel of Mega-City's legal system.

Samara sort of falls between the two: she's left free to travel around and dispense justice/protect the innocent as she sees fit  like Batman (within the restrictions imposed by the civil law-like Code), but with the legal recognition allowed by asari common law.

It's interesting to note that the Justicar Code shares  Civil law's absolutism on a philosophical level; Civil law uses clear, black and white definitions, whereas Common law's acknowlegement of grey comes from popular conscensus (enlightened or otherwise).

Samara's appeal, from my perspective, is the questions and reflection her character raises, wether one agrees/like what she represents or not.

[Eurhetemec]

I actually can't think of any legal system on Earth that's as inflexible as the Justicar Code, which does make it an interesting concept, I must admit. From Hammurabi to the ICC in the modern day, there's pretty much always room for judicial discretion of various kinds - the Code of Hammurabi for example, sounds pretty scary, but records from the time show that it was "just a guideline", not something that was held to absolutely. Samara is a force of merciless, pitiless law, and all the more scary because the law she represents is a rather bloody-handed one, seemingly advocating killing even when there are other solutions.

Combined with her distant personality, it makes for a fascinating but very cold character, and not one that's a good fit with Shepard and his crew in general, because the moment she's not in service to Shepard, she's like to start conflicting with him, whether he's Paragon (too nice in some cases!) or Renegade (duh!). She could have wreaked absolute havoc on half the Loyalty missions in ME2 if she hadn't sworn to do as she was told, temporarily.

I mean, Jacob's dad? BANG.

Maelon? BANG.

Crazy dude on Jack's mission? EMBRACE ETERNITY!

Armando Bailey is totally corrupt yet helpful? BANG.

Kolyat didn't mean it? Shepard's all "Let's find a peaceful solution!" but she'd be all EMBRACE ETERNITY! Thane would not be a happy man. Hell, I'm surprised she can keep from shooting Thane on principle.

Shepard decides to ignore the oil refinery workers? She'd ditch him and go help them.

Or god in ME1... Council members impounding Shepard's ship? That'd be a whole lot of EMBRACE ETERNITY and a whole lot of dead Council members and/or their guards.

I could go on and on, but basically unless she's sworn that oath, she basically becomes the protagonist in her own story, not a character in Shepard's which makes her essentially incompatible with the whole ME game. And to be honest, having her swear the oath AGAIN would seem like a bit of a cop-out. Especially as Renegade Shep might not be able to get near her without catching a bullet in the face.

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...

I apologize for the WOT, guys...

Don't: I think you did quite well in both summarizing the nature of the Justicars, and my arguments about them. That was well put, and well thought out. You may see it in a more positive light than I do, but you see what I see.

If there was any distinction I would make, it would be the nature of Justicar Authority: the Justicar Authority rests in common law. Common law is distinct from civil law in its derivation: civil law is distinctly derived from legal laws and rules, while common law is far more about culture and precident. Neither is invalid: the boundary between the two shifts, as civil law becomes so accepted that it becomes common or vice versa. But they are distinct: the foundation for the difference is in Samara's recruitment, when Asari Civil Law (the authority of the state) clashes with the authority of the Justicar (common law acceptence).

Note a distinction: while the Justicar Code is well spelled out, acceptance of the Justicars by the Asari culture is a common law phenomenum, as opposed to a civil law (hence the police station standoff).


Personally, I'm an avowed proponent on the dominance of Civil Law. Hence part of my personal view on the justification of the Justicars.

Apparently, I and a few others argued the Common Law nature of Justicar authority pretty well in other threads.

And it does illustrate a major difference in Asari society vs western societies.  As far as I'm aware, Civil Law is superior to Common Law.  That's clearly not the case in Asari space, at least with respect to Justicars.

[jamesp81]

yorkj86 wrote...

I don't know if they're being silly, but some people seem to think that Samara would kill someone for committing minor infractions, stuff most cops would look the other way on, like jaywalking. Let's discuss this. I don't see the evidence for it, either way.

I see some evidence that Samara wouldn't even bother with petty crime.

Remember, Samara herself mentions that once a Justicar is involved, peaceful solutions aren't likely.  This suggests that Justicars only get involved in the really bad, really ugly sort of situations.

I figure jaywalking is probably a problem below their paygrade.  They're compelled to protect the innocent and punish the wicked, and spending time chasing after people who commit minor infractions detracts from their ability to deal with much more serious problems.

[ReallyRue]

yorkj86 wrote...

I don't know if they're being silly, but some people seem to think that Samara would kill someone for committing minor infractions, stuff most cops would look the other way on, like jaywalking. Let's discuss this. I don't see the evidence for it, either way.

Some justicars might be like that, I don't know, but I really don't think Samara is. The trouble is, some people think she's Lawful Stupid, despite the instances/conversations that show otherwise. She might disapprove of petty crime, and take action against the individual to try and curb their behaviour, but I think it's more harmful things like actual murder, slavery, etc that she would kill for. Punishing the wicked to protect the innocent. For instance, I don't think she'd kill Bailey for taking bribes from criminals. I do think Samara would kill for Nassana for her various actions incuding what she did to her workers.

Besides, I tend to see the "Samara is a mindless killer" argument put forward in defence of Morinth's actions anyway, which says enough.

[Medhia Nox]

Samara states plainly in her examples that she gives criminals "a way out" before condemning them.

How could Renegade Shepard ever make that claim?

===

When she's tracking down Morinth's cult (who's followers Morinth is eating) - she loses Morinth because she's forced to fight her followers and afterward because she's transporting the survivor children to orphanages.

When you accuse her of killing the criminal in cold blood (names are escaping me) she tells you that she gave the criminal another option - but it was refused.

====

Shepard is a mindless killer, even Paragon. Renegade Shepard is just an out of control mindless killer. The only difference between Shepard and Morinth is that Shepard's normally doesn't kill innocent people.

Samara is not anything like this.

[Undead Han]

jamesp81 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

I don't know if they're being silly, but some people seem to think that Samara would kill someone for committing minor infractions, stuff most cops would look the other way on, like jaywalking. Let's discuss this. I don't see the evidence for it, either way.

I see some evidence that Samara wouldn't even bother with petty crime.

Remember, Samara herself mentions that once a Justicar is involved, peaceful solutions aren't likely.  This suggests that Justicars only get involved in the really bad, really ugly sort of situations.

I figure jaywalking is probably a problem below their paygrade.  They're compelled to protect the innocent and punish the wicked, and spending time chasing after people who commit minor infractions detracts from their ability to deal with much more serious problems.

This.

If we had Justicars on our world, they would have been sent to deal with Ted Bundy or Pablo Escobar. My impression is that the Justicars are sort of the last resort of the Asari justice system, and are generally there to deal with the worst of the worst. Jaywalkers and petty criminals would be beneath their notice. Murders or rapists on the other hand...

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

Apparently, I and a few others argued the Common Law nature of Justicar authority pretty well in other threads.

And it does illustrate a major difference in Asari society vs western societies.  As far as I'm aware, Civil Law is superior to Common Law.  That's clearly not the case in Asari space, at least with respect to Justicars.

A much deserved flaw of Asari culture. Likewise, the cultural acceptance of slavery.

[Flamewielder]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Shepard is a mindless killer, even Paragon. Renegade Shepard is just an out of control mindless killer. The only difference between Shepard and Morinth is that Shepard's normally doesn't kill innocent people.

Er... unless you're speaking on a metagaming level (i.e. Shepard's a game character and therefore is as mindless as a potted plant) Shepard is not NECESSARILY a mindless killer. It all depends on want you (the player) want him/her to be in YOUR version of the ME story.

Shep CAN be a mindless killer if that's how you want to play him/her. None of my 3 Sheps are, even the more ruthless one.

Samara's got some obvious flaws, mostly due to the writers being more focused on writing her story and less on the implications of the existence of such a being as a Justicar.

No direct evidence is given of justicars killing petty criminals for minor offences. The available litterature suggests they concern themselves more with exceptionally dangerous individuals and organizations that injure or kill innocents. Their Code apparently puts the protection of innocents first and the prosecution of the unjust as the second priority. Standing next to the speed limit sign with an assault rifle and taking pot-shots at random offenders just doesn't sound like something a Justicar would do...

One statement of Samara irritates me though, and I always ascribed it to the writers' lack of attention to implications if her statement that she might return to Tuchanka to teach the krogans the meaning of compassion, commenting that many bullets would be required. While apparently humorous, it's rather idiosyncratic. Especially when triggered by witnessing what amounts to a dogfighting arena. Kill sentients to teach compassion? The Code protects and punishes, it does not exist to bring enlightenment.

I was actually thinking about a closer human parallel to Justicars: US Marshals in the early days of territorial expansion in the american west. Of course, Justicars are not state-paid law-enforcers. But US Marshals were tasked to bring law to territories that enjoyed little in the way of other official law-enforcement. The scarcity of such enforcement meant that the justice system had to rely on informal (common) law enforcement: bounty hunters, lynching, tar & feathering, and other colorful methods of making law-breakers pay for whatever crime they committed. A lone US Marshal did not have the luxury of back-up, and likely improvised a lot in his dispensation of justice. He probably ignored due process whenever circumstances made such niceties impossible to follow.

Civil law works well in a civilized setting, where ample tax funding is available to pay for the required law-enforcement agencies and judicial process. Take the funding away and law-enforcement soon becomes a lot more "informal". Justicars, in such circumstances, would be welcomed by ill-protected communities and, likely colonies. Their service is more of a hindrance in civilized locations, as we saw on Illium. I'm guessing most Justicars reasonably recognize this, and focus on the fringes asari civilization where they are more likely to be more useful AND where one can expect the most dangerous criminals/criminal organization to hide and flourish. They probably don't waste time chasing petty criminals when there's already good law-enforcement in place.

I'm guessing Samara spent most of her career out in the colonies and visited Thessia only on Order business. It would be a waste of her talents otherwise.

[Medhia Nox]

@Flamewielder - this post isn't about Shepard, but you honestly think that all those hundreds of people Shepard kills in his "pew pew" missions are all justifiable casualties solely because they'r in his way?

Shepard is never (to my knowledge) given the option to ever peacefully solve an issue (at least, not yet). If the problem can't be solved with violence... Shepard cannot solve it.

And to suggest that violence is all a soldier is good for - kinda demeans soldiers I feel. (Though I also understand this is a video game catering to visual and auditory stimulation junkies - resolving things through diplomacy doesn't involve enough explosions.)

====

Anyway - Samara's comment on Tuchanka is her attempt to be funny. That the idea of teaching the Krogan compassion would get her tested violently requiring her to defend herself is not at all contradictory to her beliefs.

====

I see her job as a Justicar interesting and all - but I'm more fascinated by the way her character deals with a strict moral code instead of hedonism and selfishness which is the basis for most of the other characters.

[Dean_the_Young]

"Getting in Shepards way" is more or less a criminal offense when Shepard's way is more justified than yours. Which it really is, for the most part.

[Undead Han]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Apparently, I and a few others argued the Common Law nature of Justicar authority pretty well in other threads.

And it does illustrate a major difference in Asari society vs western societies.  As far as I'm aware, Civil Law is superior to Common Law.  That's clearly not the case in Asari space, at least with respect to Justicars.

A much deserved flaw of Asari culture. Likewise, the cultural acceptance of slavery.

Indentured servitude exists on Ilium, but Illium is an independent nation in the Terminus and not part of either the Asari Republics or the Citadel Council. I was under the impression that slavery was unique to Illium and was not legal in Asari Republic space. If so, it wouldn't be fair to say that slavery is culturally acceptable to the Asari as a whole.

[Dean_the_Young]

Han Shot First wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Apparently, I and a few others argued the Common Law nature of Justicar authority pretty well in other threads.

And it does illustrate a major difference in Asari society vs western societies.  As far as I'm aware, Civil Law is superior to Common Law.  That's clearly not the case in Asari space, at least with respect to Justicars.

A much deserved flaw of Asari culture. Likewise, the cultural acceptance of slavery.

Indentured servitude exists on Ilium, but Illium is an independent nation in the Terminus and not part of either the Asari Republics or the Citadel Council. I was under the impression that slavery was unique to Illium and was not legal in Asari Republic space. If so, it wouldn't be fair to say that slavery is culturally acceptable to the Asari as a whole.

Illium is Asari space.