2338 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

"Getting in Shepards way" is more or less a criminal offense when Shepard's way is more justified than yours. Which it really is, for the most part.

How so?

The galaxy is at stake!

(Or, just for you: Human lives are at stake!)

[Flamewielder]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Apparently, I and a few others argued the Common Law nature of Justicar authority pretty well in other threads.

And it does illustrate a major difference in Asari society vs western societies.  As far as I'm aware, Civil Law is superior to Common Law.  That's clearly not the case in Asari space, at least with respect to Justicars.

A much deserved flaw of Asari culture. Likewise, the cultural acceptance of slavery.

And both flaws to be expected in a "centrist" society where essentially almost everything is negociable. It's the essence of democracy and common law: as much as we may laud noble philosophical principles such as liberty and justice for all, the ugly truth is that law-makers are humans and faillible and laws are more often than not complex compromises made between opposite parties with opposite visions as to where the "greater good" lies.

When I look at Justicars and what role they may actually play in asari culture/society, I get this highly reactionary vibe from the whole concept. The Justicar Code IS the asari version of civil law, in its belief that innocents must be protected under any circumstance. It's existence appears to be a reaction to"centrism" and the moral ambiguousness of modern asari society. To me, asari law is clearly based on common law and NOT noble ideas and virtues in the philosophical sense.

As I put it in the ME2 Samara thread, Justicars still exists to remind the morally grey asari society what black and white look like. What the majority of asari finds morally acceptable will almost never be "white" or "black". As much as the Order's continued existence relies on asari common law's acceptance/tolerance, said existence actually serves to promote civil law values (especially in popular media). The rather minuscule amount of actual law-enforcement performed by a few dozen Justicars among a population of billions is far less significant than the impact of their idealized portayal in popular vids enjoyed by asari youth.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nah, nothing about either to be expected in a centrist society: Justicars and Slavery are pretty much regressive holdovers of Asari culture. Most species do quite well surpassing them: the Asari failed. But I do agree that the Justicars are only able to continue existing because there are largely too few of them to ruin the mythos.


I'd love to read a Bioware story about Justicars causing an inter-species incident. Say a Justicar (reasonably) tries to stop an alien soldier whose visiting Thesia and doing something stupid and illegal, but then (unreasonably) massacres a squad or two of his buddies as they try and resist and defend their comrad. Justicar goes 'my actions were Just because they were by the Code', Asari representatives are between a rock and a hard place of culture versus diplomatic necessity, and the foreign government is out for blood and Justice.

Could be Humans (especially in a Renegade Council). Could be Turians from before First Contact. Probably gets resolved by another Justicar loophole allowing the other Justicars to conduct a face-saving correction of one of their own.

[Undead Han]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]Illium is Asari space.

Unless there is a retcon somewhere in the comics, Illium as of ME2 was not Asari space.

Officially, Illium is not an asari world; it is colonized and operated by asari corporate interests. This gives it the same legal latitude enjoyed by the human corporate research enclaves of Noveria

http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Illium

[Dean_the_Young]

Han Shot First wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]Illium is Asari space.

Unless there is a retcon somewhere in the comics, Illium as of ME2 was not Asari space.

Officially, Illium is not an asari world; it is colonized and operated by asari corporate interests. This gives it the same legal latitude enjoyed by the human corporate research enclaves of Noveria

http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Illium

And unofficially, which is to say by the people on the planet, it is. The police in the recruitment mission, and various peoples elsewhere, identify Illium as Asari space.

Illium is not an Asari world in a similar sense that Noveria is not in Council Space: it's surrounded by Council space, populated by Council citizens, is owned by Council interests, services the Council, recognizes and allows Council authority... but is not in Council space. Only on Illium, the Asari there actually do consider themselves the edge of Asari space.

[Flamewielder]

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Flamewielder - this post isn't about Shepard, but you honestly think that all those hundreds of people Shepard kills in his "pew pew" missions are all justifiable casualties solely because they'r in his way?

Shepard is never (to my knowledge) given the option to ever peacefully solve an issue (at least, not yet). If the problem can't be solved with violence... Shepard cannot solve it.

I would say that Helena Blake's presence on Omega implies at least one instance where a situation was diplomatically resolved... in ME1, at least. And given that everyone in ME2 seems out to get Shepard, I think even Samara would agree it's self-defence (unless you actually pushed that merc through the window...).

I see her job as a Justicar interesting and all - but I'm more fascinated by the way her character deals with a strict moral code instead of hedonism and selfishness which is the basis for most of the other characters.

Rather like the Arishok and the qunari in DA:O and DA2. The Qun imposes order on society and assigns rigid and specific roles to everyone, while most libertarian humans wallow in their squallid freedom to be exploited by their hedonistic rulers who, like pigs, only bother about their people when their next meal is threatened? They're two opposite ends of a spectrum.

[Crocodiles]

 I let out a squee, when I saw this picture. The head fringe looks so good!!

[7Makaveli]

What would you all think of a subtle retcon along the lines of this happening?

Samara: Every one hundred years since the establishment of the Order, Justicars congregate at a secret location in the depths of Asari space to debate and revise the Code. It takes full consensus to revise a sutra, and ever since I've been a Justicar, we've never reached that consensus. We are to congregate once more before the galaxy's ultimate test. I've forwarded the coordinates of the location to the Normandy. It is of utmost importance that I be present to determine what the Justicar's role will be during this battle. I hope it is a swift resolve, for we do not have much time to spare.

Shepard: But of course :innocent:

I think it would be awesome to see a Justicar congregation

[7Makaveli]

Well that's why its subtle because its sort of unspoken in ME2 how there really is no organizational obligations for Justicars, I take it they assume a life of freelance once training is completed as the training itself teaches them how to pursue tasks. But presumably this congregation would lead to a consensus where the Order decides it is best to delegate themselves as best as possible according to the galaxy's strategy on how to fend off the Reapers. I hate to use this phrase but it would be a sort of mass Oath of Subsumation where they all unify for this one objective. I just want my Shepard to have front row seats for some good Asari philosophical debating

[ADLegend21]

I samara. She's an essential part of my crew.

[ZehnWaters]

ADLegend21 wrote...

I samara. She's an essential part of my crew.

Mmhmm.  It's nice to have an alien in ME who actually likes humans.

[Vengence1]

Just thought I would leave this here http://social.biowar...5/index/7784748

[l DryIce l]

 You know what? It's taken a long time but...Samara's sort of growing on me. Didn't like her at first...at all, but...she's pretty badass.

[Flamewielder]

Yes, she is. Crabcat's still working on it, judging from Rana's FB photos.

[Flamewielder]

Yeah, Samara's character tends to grow on you once you start digging. She's definitely not a crowd pleaser like Garrus or Tali. Too controversial to generate mass appeal. Her story tends to resonate more among older players, especially parents who can relate with the anguish she feels/felt at having to kill her own child.

[Dean_the_Young]

7Makaveli wrote...

What would you all think of a subtle retcon along the lines of this happening?

Samara: Every one hundred years since the establishment of the Order, Justicars congregate at a secret location in the depths of Asari space to debate and revise the Code. It takes full consensus to revise a sutra, and ever since I've been a Justicar, we've never reached that consensus. We are to congregate once more before the galaxy's ultimate test. I've forwarded the coordinates of the location to the Normandy. It is of utmost importance that I be present to determine what the Justicar's role will be during this battle. I hope it is a swift resolve, for we do not have much time to spare.

Shepard: But of course :innocent:

I think it would be awesome to see a Justicar congregation

Taking a person who has already killed millions of innocents in Arrival into the middle of a Justicar congregation strikes me as... unwise. Even if you aren't a Renegade.

Or didn't recruit Morinth.

Likewise, the priority and importance of a meeting of space monks during a galactic war is questionable in its own right, unless the Justicars are hiding some dreadnaughts without anyone knowing.

[magelet]

yorkj86 wrote...

Samara, when she was a mercenary, back when she was younger, killed the crew of the ship she was traveling on, after they refused to stop the ship, when she discovered that they were moving slaves. It's possible that she has a problem with slavery, and there's a portion of asari society that disapproves of slavery, as well.

Isn't the slavery that the asari possibly condone technically indentured servitude? Don't people enter in to the contracts of their own volition? Not that that makes it any better.

Hmm I think the council races in general are opposed to slavery. I believe there was a news thing or something in which there was a controversy with the council trying to restrict slave trading and Batarians arguing that it was necessary for their culture or something.

I suppose Samara would almost definitely see slavery as morally wrong, ie., the sort of thing she would have to kill a bunch of people to prevent if she saw it happening. The indentured servitude thing we only see on Illium, which has a reputation for sketchy things like that. I think it's more likely that that is only common in the Terminus systems, and not in asari space.

[7Makaveli]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

What would you all think of a subtle retcon along the lines of this happening?

Samara: Every one hundred years since the establishment of the Order, Justicars congregate at a secret location in the depths of Asari space to debate and revise the Code. It takes full consensus to revise a sutra, and ever since I've been a Justicar, we've never reached that consensus. We are to congregate once more before the galaxy's ultimate test. I've forwarded the coordinates of the location to the Normandy. It is of utmost importance that I be present to determine what the Justicar's role will be during this battle. I hope it is a swift resolve, for we do not have much time to spare.

Shepard: But of course :innocent:

I think it would be awesome to see a Justicar congregation

Taking a person who has already killed millions of innocents in Arrival into the middle of a Justicar congregation strikes me as... unwise. Even if you aren't a Renegade.

Or didn't recruit Morinth.

Likewise, the priority and importance of a meeting of space monks during a galactic war is questionable in its own right, unless the Justicars are hiding some dreadnaughts without anyone knowing.

Somehow I don't think killing Shepard is on the Justicar's priority list. They are concerned with hunting down unjust Asari under the jurisdiction of Asari space unless their quarry lures them out.  Furthermore, being a guest of Samara should ultimately ease any hostility the Justicars may have towards Shepard's past actions, assuming they are aware of whatever unjust things he's done. Obviously anything between killing Samara or being a Renegade to the degree which makes Samara tell you that she will hunt you down afterwards will close off this scenario I'm suggesting. So my premise is that the Reaper threat is important enough for this congregation. Now as to how important "meeting space monks is", it is more and more likely that the next game will be about visiting every race and having diplomatic discourse with their most prestigious. I feel Justicars embody that for the Asari as it was well talked about in ME2. So, I think its a viable scenario.

Oh, and I have not played Arrival.

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 10 juillet 2011 - 12:16 .

[Medhia Nox]

Didn't she say that the Justicars were very rare? I hardly think they would make a huge difference in the coming war - though I admit, this would be a scenario I want:

The Asari Homeworld is being ripped apart by Reapers - Samara has sent a distress beacon either directly to Shepard (if Paragon) or simply to anyone who receives it (if Renegade) and, perhaps Liara requests Shepard's help here.

On the planet - the last remaining Justicars sacrifice themselves in a futile battle to save their planet. Shepard shows up - saves the day.

Paragon Shepard: Saves Samara - applauds the Justicars - and starts a renaissance of their importance within Asari culture.

Renegade Shepard: Samara is dying - the Justicars are all gone - Samara comments how she feels shamed to have needed the help of someone like you - you blow out the back of her head and leave her dying in the dust. The Justicars fade into history.

Or....

Morinth eats the last remaining Justicars and her tentacles come to life and she become Cthulu... and devours the Reapers, and ascends to "Old One" status.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 10 juillet 2011 - 01:01 .