Dunno. Even when Samara warns a Shepard who has more Renegade points than Paragon points, she sounds avoidant about the confrontation, as if she recognizes the importance of what he's doing.
By the way, I don't call a Shepard who has more Renegade points than Paragon points a "Renegade" Shepard, because even if it's 1 more point R than P, Shepard still gets the warning. I've said it before - Samara makes a mockery of the Paragon/Renegade system. Bioware paints Samara as a Paragon, but she is not. She's a mix of Paragon and Renegade. She has Renegade's get-out-of-my-way attitude, tempered with Paragon's idealism.
This is also why I think arguments that hinge Samara's usefulness/danger to Shepard on the P/R check for her promising to help Shepard, or warning him about his recklessness, are flawed, because they rely on the P/R system causing characters to say certain things, even if them saying those things doesn't make sense. Before Arrival, anyway, Shepard can kill people in front of Samara, and, regardless of the Oath of Subsumation, as long as his P points are higher than his R points, she says the "I will help you" line, when the point check is done. What? That makes no sense. Samara, however, is forced by a meta-system to say that line.
Samara the Justicar Support Thread
Débuté par
Guest_yorkj86_*
, juin 16 2011 05:08
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#152
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 09:09
Skirata129
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I came on this thread just to say... Samara sucks. I killed her in every playthrough. lol
#153
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 09:14
pathis87
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I always liked her oath so i wouldn't mind having her as a temp squaddie but i fear for her role as a permanent one due to the 'limited' importance she had in ME II.
#154
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 09:31
NICKjnp
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Thanks for dropping in and have a nice day.
#155
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 10:44
This is the End My Friend
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I remember a while back Flame suggested that the Justicar Code may recognize Council Authority in some situations, and the events in Arrival would likely be one of these instances.
And it seems that Shepard will be forced to turn him or herself in, which probably renders Samara's response moot (whatever it would have been), since the Council is already dealing with it.
And it seems that Shepard will be forced to turn him or herself in, which probably renders Samara's response moot (whatever it would have been), since the Council is already dealing with it.
Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 20 juillet 2011 - 10:53 .
#156
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 12:27
Flamewielder
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We can't say because we do not know enough about the Code. I'm of the opinion that Samara, put in the same place, knowing what Shepard knew, would have made the same choice as Paragon Shep in Arrival: attempt (and fail) to warn the batarians of the danger, then destroy the relay to protect trillions vs hundreds of thousands.
I think Justicars first protect the innocent, then punish the unjust. Sure, 300,000 batarians (including a vast number of slaves) were killed. but a whole galaxy of trillions of sentients was given a reprieve. More innocents were saved than sacrificed; a sad necessity Justicars would understand and face with suitable gravitas, I think.
I think Justicars first protect the innocent, then punish the unjust. Sure, 300,000 batarians (including a vast number of slaves) were killed. but a whole galaxy of trillions of sentients was given a reprieve. More innocents were saved than sacrificed; a sad necessity Justicars would understand and face with suitable gravitas, I think.
Modifié par Flamewielder, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:29 .
#157
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 12:37
Skirata129
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not really. if you look at the actions of samara throughout the game, their code seems to be the polar opposite of the end justifying the means. Remember Nihlus escaping because he put an innocent in jeapordy? The justicar code seems to stricly prohibit the harming of innocents, even in the interest of the greater good.
#158
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 02:14
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I'd be pretty miffed if Samara refused to help my Shepard, who she said she'd help, or even attacked him, due to Arrival. Also, consider that you can do the Arrival DLC before Samara says the aid/warning lines. How will they account for that? They'd probably ignore it, or retcon it. It is, after all, their IP, and they can tell you that you did things wrong, and then fix them. Anyway, this whole mess is another example of the flaws of the P/R system.
#159
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 02:20
NICKjnp
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Samara also killed all those innocent Asari who were brainwashed by Morinth.
#160
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 02:39
Guest_yorkj86_*
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How is that relevant? The Code's legal prescriptions aren't affected by anything that the Justicar herself may have done.
I wish we had more details about that, though. Were they attacking her? They were brainwashed by Morinth. If Morinth had total control over them, and if there was nothing Samara knew to do about the brainwashing, my concern would be potentially limited, especially if the killing was done in self-defense.
I wish we had more details about that, though. Were they attacking her? They were brainwashed by Morinth. If Morinth had total control over them, and if there was nothing Samara knew to do about the brainwashing, my concern would be potentially limited, especially if the killing was done in self-defense.
Modifié par yorkj86, 21 juillet 2011 - 02:41 .
#161
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 03:35
jamesp81
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Skirata129 wrote...
not really. if you look at the actions of samara throughout the game, their code seems to be the polar opposite of the end justifying the means. Remember Nihlus escaping because he put an innocent in jeapordy? The justicar code seems to stricly prohibit the harming of innocents, even in the interest of the greater good.
Destroying the relay in Arrival does protect innocents. Trillions of them, in fact.
#162
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 06:51
NICKjnp
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Then maybe the code would consider destroying the relay a form of galactic selfdefense
#163
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 09:02
BiO
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jamesp81 wrote...
Skirata129 wrote...
not really. if you look at the actions of samara throughout the game, their code seems to be the polar opposite of the end justifying the means. Remember Nihlus escaping because he put an innocent in jeapordy? The justicar code seems to stricly prohibit the harming of innocents, even in the interest of the greater good.
Destroying the relay in Arrival does protect innocents. Trillions of them, in fact.
This. The code is strict, but the code doesn't prohibit the use of common sense.
#164
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 09:05
whywhywhywhy
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ROFL:D thanks. That was certainly entertaining.Eurhetemec wrote...
I actually can't think of any legal system on Earth that's as inflexible as the Justicar Code, which does make it an interesting concept, I must admit. From Hammurabi to the ICC in the modern day, there's pretty much always room for judicial discretion of various kinds - the Code of Hammurabi for example, sounds pretty scary, but records from the time show that it was "just a guideline", not something that was held to absolutely. Samara is a force of merciless, pitiless law, and all the more scary because the law she represents is a rather bloody-handed one, seemingly advocating killing even when there are other solutions.
Combined with her distant personality, it makes for a fascinating but very cold character, and not one that's a good fit with Shepard and his crew in general, because the moment she's not in service to Shepard, she's like to start conflicting with him, whether he's Paragon (too nice in some cases!) or Renegade (duh!). She could have wreaked absolute havoc on half the Loyalty missions in ME2 if she hadn't sworn to do as she was told, temporarily.
I mean, Jacob's dad? BANG.
Maelon? BANG.
Crazy dude on Jack's mission? EMBRACE ETERNITY!
Armando Bailey is totally corrupt yet helpful? BANG.
Kolyat didn't mean it? Shepard's all "Let's find a peaceful solution!" but she'd be all EMBRACE ETERNITY! Thane would not be a happy man. Hell, I'm surprised she can keep from shooting Thane on principle.
Shepard decides to ignore the oil refinery workers? She'd ditch him and go help them.
Or god in ME1... Council members impounding Shepard's ship? That'd be a whole lot of EMBRACE ETERNITY and a whole lot of dead Council members and/or their guards.
I could go on and on, but basically unless she's sworn that oath, she basically becomes the protagonist in her own story, not a character in Shepard's which makes her essentially incompatible with the whole ME game. And to be honest, having her swear the oath AGAIN would seem like a bit of a cop-out. Especially as Renegade Shep might not be able to get near her without catching a bullet in the face.
#165
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 09:07
Guest_yorkj86_*
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Some new information on Thessia, from the ME3 website:
"The asari homeworld is the core of the largest economy in the Milky Way,
due largely to reserves of element zero so vast they affect its price
galaxy-wide. Thessia is home to abundant life that has evolved in an
eezo-rich environment, leading to a wealth of biotically active species
and many more that simply resist eezo's negative effects. Under normal
peacetime conditions, travel to the planet is strictly controlled, but
even the best efforts of many governments cannot prevent constant
smuggling attempts. ALLIANCE ADVISORY: Dust-form element zero can be
present in minute amounts in Thessian food and water supplies; however,
this has no documented benefits to sapient non-asari species. Non-asari
are encouraged to select "visitor" versions of local cuisine, which are
kept free of eezo."
I think that settles, once and for all, the debate on how asari are natural biotics. The asari, and all of their ancestor species, maybe even back to single-celled organisms, evolved with asari present in their bodies. We already knew about the "manal," which is a biotics-capable species on Thessia, called the "asari chimpanzee." So, if the manal are to the asari what chimpanzees are to humans, it all makes sense. Cool.
"The asari homeworld is the core of the largest economy in the Milky Way,
due largely to reserves of element zero so vast they affect its price
galaxy-wide. Thessia is home to abundant life that has evolved in an
eezo-rich environment, leading to a wealth of biotically active species
and many more that simply resist eezo's negative effects. Under normal
peacetime conditions, travel to the planet is strictly controlled, but
even the best efforts of many governments cannot prevent constant
smuggling attempts. ALLIANCE ADVISORY: Dust-form element zero can be
present in minute amounts in Thessian food and water supplies; however,
this has no documented benefits to sapient non-asari species. Non-asari
are encouraged to select "visitor" versions of local cuisine, which are
kept free of eezo."
I think that settles, once and for all, the debate on how asari are natural biotics. The asari, and all of their ancestor species, maybe even back to single-celled organisms, evolved with asari present in their bodies. We already knew about the "manal," which is a biotics-capable species on Thessia, called the "asari chimpanzee." So, if the manal are to the asari what chimpanzees are to humans, it all makes sense. Cool.
#166
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 09:15
AKFTF
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Do any of you think Samara will play a role in gaining the asari's help in ME3? I hope so.
#167
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 09:18
Guest_yorkj86_*
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AKFTF wrote...
Do any of you think Samara will play a role in gaining the asari's help in ME3? I hope so.
I hope she does. She could. Justicars hold sway over asari affairs. She could help convince the asari to organize, in order to help Shepard. If Thessia itself is being attacked, she could rejoin Shepard as a temporary squadmate, for missions on that planet.
#168
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 09:33
AKFTF
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I think it would also be interesting to see how Thessian asari react to Samara as opposed to those on Illium. Maybe they fear her less and respect her more.
#169
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 09:58
Guest_yorkj86_*
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Samara's face model, Rana McAnear, will be at the 2011 SDCC, on Saturday. She'll be in full Samara cosplay. I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures.
#171
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 06:06
PauseforEffect
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The way I see it: Samara is a paragon albeit a cold, uncompromising one. With different personalities, motives and reasons for being a paragon or renegade, it can get very complicated that a binary system is insufficient to categorize people. Samara's Code seems like such a similar thing with varying approaches and outcomes. Either people are innocent or guilty. The tricky part is when one role switches to another as there's technically no middle ground. Certaintly Samara is aware that life is more complicated than that, hence why she tries to find loopholes around it.
What makes me grimace is when people talk about Morinth's potential for good by having her sleep with criminals as motive for saving her when you've already got a specially trained Asari sworn to kill criminals. It's just unfortunate that their Shepard doesn't get off in Samara's eyes (which in fact, they do.)
There's my rant for the night
What makes me grimace is when people talk about Morinth's potential for good by having her sleep with criminals as motive for saving her when you've already got a specially trained Asari sworn to kill criminals. It's just unfortunate that their Shepard doesn't get off in Samara's eyes (which in fact, they do.)
There's my rant for the night
#172
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 07:15
ModroTheAnnihilator
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Rana's cosplay of Samara was the best one out of all the entries, but they didn't pick her probably because I think some people would consider it unfair, with Rana being the actual model for Samara and all.yorkj86 wrote...
Rana appeared as Samara at SDCC, today! Link - Go to the "Costume" video, and skip to about 1:40:00!
Edit: Never mind. She just said she wasn't part of the contest.
Modifié par ModroTheAnnihilator, 23 juillet 2011 - 07:25 .
#173
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 08:55
Seboist
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That Samara cosplay is DAMN good. The head parts were very well made.
#174
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 09:03
SilentK
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I really liked that Samara cosplay. Hope that they will post some good photo of her as well =)
#175
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 09:15
who would know
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The strawberry texture on the armor was a little off, but the rest was great. I hope she did a photo shoot.
