19 réponses à ce sujet

[Sister Goldring]

So, being at a loose end myself this afternoon. I'm wondering if anyone else wants to construct conspiracy theories with me about our most mysterious Leliana and her cameo in DA2.

What I'm wondering and forgive me if it's already been covered, is what if any, is the meaning behind her Origins amulet called the 'Seekers Circle'?

When we found her in origins in the chantry was she really the simple sister she appeared to be or was she already involved with the of order of Seekers? If not, why does she wear the amulet?

Marjolaine warns the Warden not to trust Leliana's simple persona, was she telling the truth. Could there be more to this than meets the eye or is it simply a........coincidence?   (Unfortunately lacking  a Sherlock Holmes emoticon I'm putting in a  instead). 

[DreamerM]

Elementary, my dear Sister Goldring.

But you don't need Holmesian deductive powers to pinpoint that Leiliana has been a Chantry spy from the start. It's painfully obvious.

[brain_damage]

I think it's just foreshadowing of what's to come.The other options nullify and mock every single bit of character development Leliana achieved(with your help, of course) in DAO.

Modifié par brain_damage, 16 juin 2011 - 12:15 .

[Pasquale1234]

brain_damage wrote...

I think it's just foreshadowing of what's to come.The other options nullify and mock every single bit of character development Leliana achieved(with your help, of course) in DAO.

This.

For her to have been a Chantry spy during DAO creates a couple of major issues:

- There doesn't seem to be any legitimate reason why the Chantry would need to send a spy along with the Grey Wardens during a blight.  What would be their purpose?

- She was (is) a pretty popular character and LI.  To find out, after all of this time, that she's been taking everyone - including the Wardens and players - for a ride would do irreparable damage to many players' willingness to suspend disbelief and place trust in any other stories or characters this franchise might want to sell.  It would really feel like a slap in the face.

My Warden - who romanced Leliana - received a letter from her during DAA indicating that she was meeting with the Grand Cleric.  My interpretation of that is that the Grand Cleric recognized her skills in helping to end the blight and that is when she became involved with the Seekers.

[Nerdage]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

My Warden - who romanced Leliana - received a letter from her during DAA indicating that she was meeting with the Grand Cleric.  My interpretation of that is that the Grand Cleric recognized her skills in helping to end the blight and that is when she became involved with the Seekers.

That seems most likely, but I'm not sure why the letter didn't come from the Divine if that's the case; it's easily explainable as it is but it still annoys me.

[Pasquale1234]

nerdage wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

My Warden - who romanced Leliana - received a letter from her during DAA indicating that she was meeting with the Grand Cleric.  My interpretation of that is that the Grand Cleric recognized her skills in helping to end the blight and that is when she became involved with the Seekers.

That seems most likely, but I'm not sure why the letter didn't come from the Divine if that's the case; it's easily explainable as it is but it still annoys me.

I feel that it was most appropriate for the letter to come from Leliana.  It was personal, and she needed to explain the reason why she was not going to be meeting her partner at the keep.

If you are referring to Leliana's involvement with the Seekers, I would agree that it would make more sense for that assignment to come from the Divine rather than some Grand Cleric.  Maybe this is just how the political structure within the Chantry works?  The GC talks with Leliana to assess her skills and interest, then sends her off with a recommendation to the Divine?

[whykikyouwhy]

I'm inclined to agree with Pasquale1234's theory - I think the involvement with the Seekers happened, or started, sometime around Awakenings. It makes sense given the quest to stop/kill Marjolaine in DA:O as well. I don't think the bard could have been fully immersed in the Seekers with that threat and loose end hanging over her head.

As for Marjolaine's advice to the Warden - well, she knows what Leliana is capable of. She was her mentor - all the deep, dark secrets are known to her, all of the intrigue and duplicity are characteristics that she herself helped hone. And what better way to try and undermine Leliana at that moment than to plant the seeds of doubt in the Warden?

The interesting thing will be to see how much influence the Maker has in Leliana's true story - if she is truly touched by the divine, if she is some type of magical being or avatar or what have you (people with certain playthroughs will demand that the death-at-the-urn be explained).

[hoorayforicecream]

I feel like I should point out that the Grand Cleric that Leliana most likely goes to see during the events of DAA may have been Revered Mother Dorothea, who was introduced in Leliana's Song. Dorothea actually became Divine Justinia V in 9:34, around 3 years after the Blight, and 3 years before Leliana is shown to be Hand of the Divine in Kirkwall, so it lends credence to the idea that Leliana became a Seeker after her adventures with (or without) the Warden.

[Torax]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I feel like I should point out that the Grand Cleric that Leliana most likely goes to see during the events of DAA may have been Revered Mother Dorothea, who was introduced in Leliana's Song. Dorothea actually became Divine Justinia V in 9:34, around 3 years after the Blight, and 3 years before Leliana is shown to be Hand of the Divine in Kirkwall, so it lends credence to the idea that Leliana became a Seeker after her adventures with (or without) the Warden.

^ This. People seem to forget that awakening is like 6 months after the Blight. Not years. The iffy part is just how long it takes for Awakenings to complete for the claims about Anders. Meanwhile Leliana's are so late in DA2 that it is long after the Dorothea becomes the Divine. So think of it from Dorothea's point of view. She saved Leliana knowing her abilities and helped her down a more healthy path. She knew who Leliana was when it basically was publically known that Leliana was the Bard who traveled with the Hero of Fereldon. Leliana even writes a song about the Warden's defeat of the Arch Demon. The main difference is just if she loved the Warden and or if the Warden dies.

So you have a Divine that wants to apoint someone to a position that she has to truly trust but is also capable of stealth and other tactics. Leliana knew what was held over the head of Dorothea and never used it against her. Leliana would have most definitely joined the Seekers post the disapearance of the Hero of Fereldon. Dorothea was basically appointed past even the timeline for Witchhunt if my memory serves me correct...

[Knight of Dane]

And i still blame Schmooples

[Myusha]

Leliana is truly an Engima if anything.

There is no absolute truth to her, besides her gender. Even her look may be at question
[Although I doubt it]

Even her death is a lie. XD

[Nerdage]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I feel like I should point out that the Grand Cleric that Leliana most likely goes to see during the events of DAA may have been Revered Mother Dorothea, who was introduced in Leliana's Song. Dorothea actually became Divine Justinia V in 9:34, around 3 years after the Blight, and 3 years before Leliana is shown to be Hand of the Divine in Kirkwall, so it lends credence to the idea that Leliana became a Seeker after her adventures with (or without) the Warden.

Ahhh... I'm happy now. Thanks.

[Nerdage]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I feel that it was most appropriate for the letter to come from Leliana.  It was personal, and she needed to explain the reason why she was not going to be meeting her partner at the keep.

If you are referring to Leliana's involvement with the Seekers, I would agree that it would make more sense for that assignment to come from the Divine rather than some Grand Cleric.  Maybe this is just how the political structure within the Chantry works?  The GC talks with Leliana to assess her skills and interest, then sends her off with a recommendation to the Divine?

I meant I thought she should be going to see the Divine, not a grand cleric, but it seems I got my timelines wrong... And my words, it seems, I never meant the letter Leliana sends should come from anyone else.

Modifié par nerdage, 17 juin 2011 - 07:00 .

[JoHnDoE14]

Most probably what Pasquale1234 said. A slap in the face wouldn't really be such a bad thing though!

Modifié par JoHnDoE14, 17 juin 2011 - 02:19 .

[Pasquale1234]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I feel like I should point out that the Grand Cleric that Leliana most likely goes to see during the events of DAA may have been Revered Mother Dorothea, who was introduced in Leliana's Song. Dorothea actually became Divine Justinia V in 9:34, around 3 years after the Blight, and 3 years before Leliana is shown to be Hand of the Divine in Kirkwall, so it lends credence to the idea that Leliana became a Seeker after her adventures with (or without) the Warden.

Thanks for supplying the reference, hooray.

Is anyone interested in theorizing about the chain of events?  Whether BioWare will ever address it with specifics is anyone's guess...

The epilogue I saw in DAA indicates that Leliana and the Warden continue to adventure for at least some time after those events.

In the middle of Act 3 of DA2, King Alistair indicates the Warden is in Denerim - so we know that the Warden's whereabouts is still known at that time, but by the end of the game (some 3 to 3-1/2 years later), the Warden had disappeared.

When did Leliana join the Seekers?  Would it have been at the time when Revered Mother Dorothea rose to Divine Justinia V, or sometime before or after that?

Torax wrote...
So you have a Divine that wants to apoint someone to a position that she has to truly trust but is also capable of stealth and other tactics. Leliana knew what was held over the head of Dorothea and never used it against her. Leliana would have most definitely joined the Seekers post the disapearance of the Hero of Fereldon. Dorothea was basically appointed past even the timeline for Witchhunt if my memory serves me correct...

So you're saying Leliana joined the Seekers after the mid Act 3 timeframe?

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 17 juin 2011 - 04:38 .

[Torax]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I feel like I should point out that the Grand Cleric that Leliana most likely goes to see during the events of DAA may have been Revered Mother Dorothea, who was introduced in Leliana's Song. Dorothea actually became Divine Justinia V in 9:34, around 3 years after the Blight, and 3 years before Leliana is shown to be Hand of the Divine in Kirkwall, so it lends credence to the idea that Leliana became a Seeker after her adventures with (or without) the Warden.

Thanks for supplying the reference, hooray.

Is anyone interested in theorizing about the chain of events?  Whether BioWare will ever address it with specifics is anyone's guess...

The epilogue I saw in DAA indicates that Leliana and the Warden continue to adventure for at least some time after those events.

In the middle of Act 3 of DA2, King Alistair indicates the Warden is in Denerim - so we know that the Warden's whereabouts is still known at that time, but by the end of the game (some 3 to 3-1/2 years later), the Warden had disappeared.

When did Leliana join the Seekers?  Would it have been at the time when Revered Mother Dorothea rose to Divine Justinia V, or sometime before or after that?

Torax wrote...
So you have a Divine that wants to apoint someone to a position that she has to truly trust but is also capable of stealth and other tactics. Leliana knew what was held over the head of Dorothea and never used it against her. Leliana would have most definitely joined the Seekers post the disapearance of the Hero of Fereldon. Dorothea was basically appointed past even the timeline for Witchhunt if my memory serves me correct...

So you're saying Leliana joined the Seekers after the mid Act 3 timeframe?

The Hero of Fereldon confronts Morrigan at the Eluvian 2 years before Hawke even defeats the Arishok. I'm just saying it could be one of the many reasons Leliana would have joined the Seekers. The same year that Hawke becomes the Champion is the year that Dorothea becomes Divine.

[Sister Goldring]

Whist all really interesting this doesn't explain why Leliana was in possession of the 'seekers circle' prior to meeting the Warden.
 
Now assuming that they're not simply sold as trinkets in the local Chantry gift shop, that Bioware's writers didn't get stuck for names in DA2 and that it is reasonable to link elements from separate games to draw conclusions from. Then the fact she wears  the 'seekers circle' seems to suggest that prior to the Blight she has had some involvement with the order of Seekers (or at least a specific Seeker who has given her the amulet).
 
My understanding of the Seekers is that they are an order of the Chantry charged with overseeing the Templars in some capacity and that they are directly controlled by the Divine in Orlais. That Cassandra appears to have the authority to detain and question Varric who is both wealthy and influential within his community, added to the fact that Cassandra is herself a member of the Nevarran royalty indicates that the Seekers are in a position of power.
 
Looking again at Leliana, we know that she has a relationship with Reverend Mother Dorethea that predates her involvement with the Warden. As pointed out by others in this thread Dorethea at some point becomes Divine Justinia V head of the Chantry. However even as a Reverend Mother Dorethea is a senior member of the Chantry and she is also a person who has been in possession of documents that could ignite a war between Orlais and Ferelden. In this instance, it doesn't seem too far fetched to conclude that Dorothea is a political animal and has her own undisclosed agenda.
 
Leliana is presented to us in Origins as an Orlesian bard, which pretty much translates to a spy for hire. Regardless of her role in Origins and her motive in joining the Warden to fight the Blight, she is exactly the sort of person who would be of use to a powerful ambitious character. In DA2 we find that Sister Nightingale is actively working with the Seekers and is indeed being sent on covert missions by the Divine Justinia. We also know that Justinia utilised Leliana's bardic skills long before the events of both the DAO and DA2 when she had her regain the secret documents from Marjolaine.
 
So prior to the Blight Leliana is wearing an amulet linked to a powerful order of the Chantry and is closely involved with a senior Chantry figure who  dabbles in political intrigue. I suggest it is likely Leliana has been the agent of Justinia throughout the events of both games although it is questionable that she was actively engaged in any machinations at the time of her meeting with the Warden.
 
In short the wench is up to something.....conspiracy theory concluded. 

Modifié par Sister Goldring, 18 juin 2011 - 04:49 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Here are a couple of things to consider (some expansions on theories you've touched upon):

 - The amulet may have been given to Leliana by Dorothea, either as a token or as a sort of mark that the young bard will be guided into a far greater role within the Chantry.
 - Leliana may have nicked it from someone or something. You know, to practice those rogue-skills.
 - According to the wiki, the item description states: "A wheel representing the Maker's unending patience and Andraste's unquenchable passion. Simple and inspirational, though uncommon outside the Chantry. A gift meant to be given without conditions." So it could just be an item/gift symbolic of the faith and not of the group. If it was the latter, it might have the eye symbol on it.
- The existence of the amulet when you first meet Leliana may be pure, unabashed foreshadowing.
- The existence of the amulet, and its relative name, is just one more breadcrumb on the trail leading us into the next game.

[Pasquale1234]

I don't doubt that she is up to something, and there is a lot more to her than meets the eye.

It's just hard for me to believe that she had some other agenda during the time she was traveling with the Warden. There was a dialogue in DAO where she lied to the Warden, but her guilt drove her to come clean afterward. As the approval rating grew and trust was built between them, she seemed more and more willing to tell the Warden about her past and the way she had manipulated other people. I don't think that someone who had some other agenda would have done that. A smart bard/spy is not going to go around telling people they're being played.

I saw some David Gaider comments in a thread where people were complaining that she is alive in DA2 after they had slain her in DAO, and his response indicated that there is a reason why she survived that. Whether it simply has to do with being in the Temple of Andraste or alludes to Leliana being something other than a mortal human - well, I guess that's something that only Mr. Gaider knows at this point.

Speaking of which - I've always been a bit perplexed by her interaction with the Guardian at that temple. It's at 7:20 in this vid:

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 18 juin 2011 - 04:36 .

[Birdhive]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

It's just hard for me to believe that she had some other agenda during the time she was traveling with the Warden. There was a dialogue in DAO where she lied to the Warden, but her guilt drove her to come clean afterward. As the approval rating grew and trust was built between them, she seemed more and more willing to tell the Warden about her past and the way she had manipulated other people. I don't think that someone who had some other agenda would have done that. A smart bard/spy is not going to go around telling people they're being played.

But there's another dialog where she talks about how easy it is to become the woman that the target of the bard wants, whether for romance or friendship or whatever.  The warden may have wanted an honest friend, so Leilana was honest--to a point.  Just because she admits to deceiveing people in the past and having regrets does not mean she is not also currently deceiving the warden.  It could even make her tales more poignant--she could regret decieving the warden even as she does it.  I mean, she does need to admit something to explain her skills!

I find it easier to believe that Leliana is a chantry spy than that she actually believes she has a connection to the maker.  Though the guardian-Leliana dialog you mentioned, if you trust the guardian's insights, makes it seem unlikely that she is a chantry spy while in Lothering.  The Justinia Whatever timeline from Leliana's song makes me think that she was certainly working with the future divine for a long time, however, whether or not she knew she was a full-on seeker, I doubt.  Being with the warden on that journey could have been a lead up mission to joining the seekers--a way to prove herself.  Heck, the seekers even could have used her belief that the maker spoke to her to manipulate Leliana into spying on the warden.  She wouldn't have had to know much more than: we need you to go help these wardens.

Her seeker's amulet makes me feel that she has been a spy all along.  I kind of hope that this is the case, actually; I think it would make the whole narrative more interesting.  I've never really liked her as a character, though, so it wouldn't break my heart.  She feels pushy and her girlyness (in contrast to her bloodthirstiness) majorly freaks me out.  I think she was trying to manipulate my warden(s).

Another interesting thing--in my most recent origins epilog screens, Morrigan was reported seen in Orlais, "having insinuated herself in the Empress' court" (Alistair refused the DR).  Flemeth could have tipped the chantry to the need to protect/assist the warden during Origins, and Morrigan could have been more keen on her mother's plans than she let on (DR dialog showing this to be the case), thus ending up in Orlais once the DR failed.  Or, given that the Orlesians were going to help fight the blight in Fereldan before Cailan died, it could have been that Leliana was an agent sent to investigate the same way Riordan was sent by the Wardens.  She could have even been just a lowly ex-rogue chantry initiate at Lothering who was in the right place at the right time and was thus assigned the investigation, without knowing her involvement in greater schemes until after visiting Orlais post-Origins herself.