95 réponses à ce sujet

[Wereparrot]

The Warden-Commander could definitely compel the Fereldan Wardens to aid the general Fereldan army, and as Arl of Amaranthine would be required to fight in any case, as would the Teyrn of Gwaren. If the Warden is king/prince then due to the immense power he wields as not only Warden-Commander but also arl and potentially teyrn as well as king and general, then he would probably be able to annex the Fereldan arm of the Wardens, although this wouldn't go down very well with the grandmaster.

[sphinxess]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

What if Ferelden's forces are divided? Some nobles (and indeed many commoners) might not be pleased with Alistair's stance on apostates. I can easily imagine an Orlesian sponsored faction choosing their Maker over their King.

 As long as Alistair leaves the local faith alone (in the hands of local Reverend Mothers), Alistair can tell the Chantry to stick it and be pretty much assured of broad based support from both the nobility and commoners.

-Polaris

This presupposes the local Chantry would be content to support a heretic King. Remember that their loyalty is to the Divine and not the local ruler. During the Orlesian invasion the Ferelden Chantry acknowledged the new ruler and held no special loyalty to the Theirin dynasty. If Alistair sided with rebel mages against the Chantry do you think he could count on their continued support? They could actually turn a lot of people against the monarchy.

So he tells the reverend motherthat wont support him to pack up her bags and head to Orlais and finds a mother that will

[ddv.rsa]

sphinxess wrote...

So he tells the reverend motherthat wont support him to pack up her bags and head to Orlais and finds a mother that will

That would be a sure recipe for unrest. 

[sphinxess]

ddv.rsa wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

So he tells the reverend motherthat wont support him to pack up her bags and head to Orlais and finds a mother that will

That would be a sure recipe for unrest. 

Maybe - maybe not. I wouldn't think the Chantry as run from Orlais would be all that popular in Ferelden. Henry the 8th got away with a similiar thing in England and the Church of England was formed.

[ddv.rsa]

sphinxess wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

So he tells the reverend motherthat wont support him to pack up her bags and head to Orlais and finds a mother that will

That would be a sure recipe for unrest. 

Maybe - maybe not. I wouldn't think the Chantry as run from Orlais would be all that popular in Ferelden. Henry the 8th got away with a similiar thing in England and the Church of England was formed.

Except the Chantry is popular in Ferelden. Maric and Loghain wanted to eject it, but thought better of it due to the Chantry's popularity. If Maric himself wasn't popular enough to take on the Chantry and be sure of winning, I have to wonder about Alistair.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Except the Chantry is popular in Ferelden. Maric and Loghain wanted to eject it, but thought better of it due to the Chantry's popularity. If Maric himself wasn't popular enough to take on the Chantry and be sure of winning, I have to wonder about Alistair.

The local chantry is popular.  The Grand Cleric and other senior mothers in Denerim, not so much.  The fact that Maric and Loghain were able to seriously consider ejecting the Chantry from Fereldan at all should tell you just how fragile the Chantry's hold on Fereldan really is.  There is a huge divide in Fereldan between personal faith and political clout and because the Chantry backed a hugely unpopular occupation politically, Chantry political clout in Fereldan is at an all time low...and the Divine realizes this.

The situation was almsot exactly the same in England where the Roman Catholic Church had a bad habit of openly backing Spanish claims which got senior church officials hated in England. 

All Alistair would have to do is either tell the Grand Cleric to declare him head of the Chantry in Fereldan or find an ambitious (Petrice would actually fit fairly well or the Petrice type) willing to do so in exchange for an appointment to Grand Cleric of Denerim.  The actual local chantry mothers and procedures would hardly change at all, and Alistair (or Anora) would be seen as standing up to Orlais....and responding to the Kirkwall crisis.

There would be very little unrest because actual personal faith would be changed hardly at all.

-Polaris

[Foolsfolly]

HSHAW wrote...

(EG: If Orlais invaded Ferelden) Would the Grey Wardens in Ferelden have to join in the defense of Ferelden since they control a significant portion of it or would they have to stay neutral?

Neutral.

The Wardens do not pick sides, they must stay neutral in these cases because if they get involved there will be reprecussions against their Order. And then they'll be less able to be ready for the next Blight.

Arguably, their neutrality would cause some grudges as well, but they're a small Order which is gear specifically to destroy the Blight.

[IanPolaris]

Foolsfolly wrote...

HSHAW wrote...

(EG: If Orlais invaded Ferelden) Would the Grey Wardens in Ferelden have to join in the defense of Ferelden since they control a significant portion of it or would they have to stay neutral?

Neutral.

The Wardens do not pick sides, they must stay neutral in these cases because if they get involved there will be reprecussions against their Order. And then they'll be less able to be ready for the next Blight.

Arguably, their neutrality would cause some grudges as well, but they're a small Order which is gear specifically to destroy the Blight.

Except in Amaranthine.  By accepting the role of Arl of Armaranthine, the Grey Wardens accept the charge of defending it as well.

-Polais

[Foolsfolly]

I still imagine a Warden would not pick a side in that battle. Defending an arling from bandits and darkspawn raids is one thing. Picking a side in a global conflict that could give the Order less power to defend against future Blights would not be accepted by the First Warden.

If the Wardens pick the losing side then what happens to the whole order? Look at Sophia Dryden's petty rebellion and what it nearly cost the whole world. Think what would have happened had they never been invited to return to Ferelden because of Sophia's actions.

That's a pure example that they should not fight against any nation. They are small and most of their power (such as the Rite of Conscription) is only enforced by the king/queen/empress of whatever nation they're in.

They lose too much in picking a side. If Ferelden does not allow the Wardens to have Amaranthine if they don't fight for Ferelden I imagine the Wardens to either stand down or remain neutral.

Ugly situation but look at Kirkwall. That place could have fallen to the Qunari a completely unacceptable situation for any free thinking person, but the Wardens remained neutral in the face of this.

They must remain neutral. Their course isn't to chart or shape the world it is only to defend it against the darkspawn.

[Foolsfolly]

Filament wrote...

Yeah, the arls are supposed to be subject to the king, right? So, the Warden Commander would have two conflicting duties to uphold. I suppose it depends on who the Commander is, then.

Not every arl can be an Eamon.

Let's say a completely different war happens. One in which Orlais wishes to retake its former colony. They move a massive army down to Ferelden's boarder just after the Fifth Blight devestated the country. Faced with these low odds I think it's completely possible that some of the arls would side with Orlais (the very likely victor of such an alternate DA history war) for favors (like continued rule of their lands and not having soldiers slaughter them and their loved ones) or monetary gain?

I especially see this happening in the lower levels with the bannorn but I imagine for every Cousland and Eamon there has to be a few Howes.


EDIT:

The point, yes the arls are supposed to support their king. But human nature and greed will likely decide where people side. These guys have some measure of power and they have a lot ot loose if things go sour.

Never mind that there might be a certain Arl with a mage nephew who might not want to see that nephew murdered because of the gifts the Maker gave him. In such a case does that arl side with king or side against the king out of love?

These things are how it's supposed to work, I imagine the Wardens saying their arling is neutral (something Alistair should expect) would be the least of their concerns as the battle lines are being drawn.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 17 juin 2011 - 07:10 .

[Wulfram]

The Warden Commander would certainly be obliged to send his non-warden forces - like the Silver Order - and might feel an obligation to serve in person as Arl. The rest of the wardens would be expected to stay neutral.

[Foolsfolly]

Wulfram wrote...

The Warden Commander would certainly be obliged to send his non-warden forces - like the Silver Order - and might feel an obligation to serve in person as Arl. The rest of the wardens would be expected to stay neutral.

In such a situation they risk losing all of Orlais (recruiting people, counting on troops, the Empress's favor, and even the Chantry's favor who may call their Joining Ritual Blood Magic, which it probably is) for a small track of land in northern Ferelden.

The single smartest thing to do would be to step down and allow the bannorn of Amanranthine to plot their own course. Ferelden may still get the support of Amanranthine's forces but the Wardens are still neutral to both sides. They stay out of the conflict and continue to remain vigilant for darkspawn.

However, an interesting thought occurs. What if a few Mage Wardens around Thedas pick up staves for Mage rights? Would that force some nations to see the Wardens as combatants even if the standing order by the First Warden is to remain neutral?

Afterall, a Warden blew up the Kirkwall chantry.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

The situation was almsot exactly the same in England where the Roman Catholic Church had a bad habit of openly backing Spanish claims which got senior church officials hated in England. 

-Polaris

To continue your comparison with England, there was Catholic unrest for a long time. I firmly believe any such move would lead to armed resistance. The resistance might be a minority, but there will be resistance.

[Gabey5]

the human noble warden can hold

amaranthine
Gwaren
Highever(brother)
and be king

So yeah the wardens are knee deep in fereleden and will defend it

[MinotaurWarrior]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I still imagine a Warden would not pick a side in that battle. Defending an arling from bandits and darkspawn raids is one thing. Picking a side in a global conflict that could give the Order less power to defend against future Blights would not be accepted by the First Warden.

emphasis mine.

The issue is, nobody cares about the First Warden. It's absolutely true that Weisshaupt would be for neutrality, but the Warden-Commander of Ferelden has never met the First Warden, and in all likelyhood doesn't care what he has to say at all.

Take, for example, Queen Lyanna, hypothetical warden. Lyanna Cousland wanted nothing more than to retake her home with an army she would raise herself, and was absolutely insulted that Duncan presumed to conscript her into the grey wardens. After being forced into the joining, she had no choice but to prevent the Darkspawn from overrunning her ancestral hold. After marrying Alistair, becoming queen, and ending the fifth blight, she was mildly offended at being forced into becoming the Warden-Commander, just because she was the only non-king Grey Warden around, but she accepted, as it was still a somewhat noble position. When her homeland is in peril, do you really think this woman is going to even bother to think, "what would some strange man in Nevarra, a land I've never even seen, want me to do?" I'm willing to bet that, instead, she is going to mobilize any and all forces she has available (including her Grey Wardens) and defend her homeland.

[ddv.rsa]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

Take, for example, Queen Lyanna, hypothetical warden. Lyanna Cousland wanted nothing more than to retake her home with an army she would raise herself, and was absolutely insulted that Duncan presumed to conscript her into the grey wardens. After being forced into the joining, she had no choice but to prevent the Darkspawn from overrunning her ancestral hold. After marrying Alistair, becoming queen, and ending the fifth blight, she was mildly offended at being forced into becoming the Warden-Commander, just because she was the only non-king Grey Warden around, but she accepted, as it was still a somewhat noble position. When her homeland is in peril, do you really think this woman is going to even bother to think, "what would some strange man in Nevarra, a land I've never even seen, want me to do?" I'm willing to bet that, instead, she is going to mobilize any and all forces she has available (including her Grey Wardens) and defend her homeland.

Thing is, not all Wardens would care that much about Ferelden. What about a dwarven, Dalish or even Orlesian Warden-Commander? Ferelden isn't their home.

[Foolsfolly]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I still imagine a Warden would not pick a side in that battle. Defending an arling from bandits and darkspawn raids is one thing. Picking a side in a global conflict that could give the Order less power to defend against future Blights would not be accepted by the First Warden.

emphasis mine.

The issue is, nobody cares about the First Warden. It's absolutely true that Weisshaupt would be for neutrality, but the Warden-Commander of Ferelden has never met the First Warden, and in all likelyhood doesn't care what he has to say at all.

Take, for example, Queen Lyanna, hypothetical warden. Lyanna Cousland wanted nothing more than to retake her home with an army she would raise herself, and was absolutely insulted that Duncan presumed to conscript her into the grey wardens. After being forced into the joining, she had no choice but to prevent the Darkspawn from overrunning her ancestral hold. After marrying Alistair, becoming queen, and ending the fifth blight, she was mildly offended at being forced into becoming the Warden-Commander, just because she was the only non-king Grey Warden around, but she accepted, as it was still a somewhat noble position. When her homeland is in peril, do you really think this woman is going to even bother to think, "what would some strange man in Nevarra, a land I've never even seen, want me to do?" I'm willing to bet that, instead, she is going to mobilize any and all forces she has available (including her Grey Wardens) and defend her homeland.

We don't know that.

1- 10 years without the player watching anything the Warden's done means the Warden could have traveled anywhere.
2- The Warden Commander could, perhaps, be somewhere inside a mirror.
2b- If the Warden's disappeared (like the end of Witch Hunt leads us to believe) there may be a new Warden Commander who's past we know nothing at all about.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The situation was almsot exactly the same in England where the Roman Catholic Church had a bad habit of openly backing Spanish claims which got senior church officials hated in England. 

-Polaris

To continue your comparison with England, there was Catholic unrest for a long time. I firmly believe any such move would lead to armed resistance. The resistance might be a minority, but there will be resistance.

No there really wasn't.  Sorry but you are misreading history.  There WAS a Catholic underground but that largely existed for as long as it did because Parliament didn't get it's act together and enact a ban on Cathlolic Kings on the British Throne for over a hundred years post Henry VIII....and the Stuarts had some real "winners" for Kings (Such as Charles II).  The only really SERIOUS religious resistance that brought action by the Crown happened in Scotland by the Presbetyrs and others (the forefathers of the Puritans).

In short, the transformation from the Roman Catholic Church to the Church of England was remarkable pain free in England for a variety of reasons most of which also apply to Fereldan.

-Polaris

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

No there really wasn't.  Sorry but you are misreading history.  There WAS a Catholic underground but <snip>

My point. There will be resistance. I'm not claiming it will be especially powerful.

IanPolaris wrote...
that largely existed for as long as it did because Parliament didn't get it's act together and enact a ban on Cathlolic Kings on the British Throne for over a hundred years post Henry VIII....and the Stuarts had some real "winners" for Kings (Such as Charles II).  The only really SERIOUS religious resistance that brought action by the Crown happened in Scotland by the Presbetyrs and others (the forefathers of the Puritans).

In short, the transformation from the Roman Catholic Church to the Church of England was remarkable pain free in England for a variety of reasons most of which also apply to Fereldan.

-Polaris

From cursory research:

*The Pilgrimage of Grace
* Bigod's rebellion
*The prayer book rebellion
*The rising of the north
*The Ridolfi plot
*The Babington plot
*The Throckmorton plot
*The Gunpowder plot
*Persecution of Catholics, including Elisabeth's government declaring all Catholic priests guilty of treason

I'm not claiming there was civil war or even mass riots. But there was some resistance. In the same way I think any Ferelden monarch attempting to eject the Chantry will encounter resistance. In the event of war with Orlais, I think that faction might assist the enemy.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 17 juin 2011 - 11:28 .

[MinotaurWarrior]

ddv.rsa wrote...

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

Take, for example, Queen Lyanna, hypothetical warden. Lyanna Cousland wanted nothing more than to retake her home with an army she would raise herself, and was absolutely insulted that Duncan presumed to conscript her into the grey wardens. After being forced into the joining, she had no choice but to prevent the Darkspawn from overrunning her ancestral hold. After marrying Alistair, becoming queen, and ending the fifth blight, she was mildly offended at being forced into becoming the Warden-Commander, just because she was the only non-king Grey Warden around, but she accepted, as it was still a somewhat noble position. When her homeland is in peril, do you really think this woman is going to even bother to think, "what would some strange man in Nevarra, a land I've never even seen, want me to do?" I'm willing to bet that, instead, she is going to mobilize any and all forces she has available (including her Grey Wardens) and defend her homeland.

Thing is, not all Wardens would care that much about Ferelden. What about a dwarven, Dalish or even Orlesian Warden-Commander? Ferelden isn't their home.

I completely agree. My cannon warden in fact hates Ferelden. My point is that what the warden does is dependant on who the warden is (decided by the player) and what the warden does will have a huge impact on any conflict between Orlais and Ferelden.

[Torax]

Just for a clarification about all the Dragon Age: Origins player character options. No matter their race, their home was in Fereldon. Duncan was only traveling in Fereldon. Orzimmar is beneath the Frostback Mountains for example. You don't even leave Fereldon during Awakening. I think even the location for GoA is still located within the borders of Fereldon. Sure a player's character may not care about Fereldon as a whole? But you can't ignore the fact that the Dalish were camped right in the forests of Fereldon. The dwarves underneath it in tunnels. Even the dead dwarven ghosts of Kal'hirol are in Fereldon. Maps people...

[ddv.rsa]

Torax wrote...

Just for a clarification about all the Dragon Age: Origins player character options. No matter their race, their home was in Fereldon. Duncan was only traveling in Fereldon. Orzimmar is beneath the Frostback Mountains for example. You don't even leave Fereldon during Awakening. I think even the location for GoA is still located within the borders of Fereldon. Sure a player's character may not care about Fereldon as a whole? But you can't ignore the fact that the Dalish were camped right in the forests of Fereldon. The dwarves underneath it in tunnels. Even the dead dwarven ghosts of Kal'hirol are in Fereldon. Maps people...

The Dalish are nomadic and do not consider any human nation to be their home. For example the Dalish warden's clan is in the Free Marches by DA2. They don't consider Ferelden or the Free Marches to be their home.

The dwarves also do not see Ferelden as their home.