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[Torax]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Torax wrote...

Just for a clarification about all the Dragon Age: Origins player character options. No matter their race, their home was in Fereldon. Duncan was only traveling in Fereldon. Orzimmar is beneath the Frostback Mountains for example. You don't even leave Fereldon during Awakening. I think even the location for GoA is still located within the borders of Fereldon. Sure a player's character may not care about Fereldon as a whole? But you can't ignore the fact that the Dalish were camped right in the forests of Fereldon. The dwarves underneath it in tunnels. Even the dead dwarven ghosts of Kal'hirol are in Fereldon. Maps people...

The Dalish are nomadic and do not consider any human nation to be their home. For example the Dalish warden's clan is in the Free Marches by DA2. They don't consider Ferelden or the Free Marches to be their home.

The dwarves also do not see Ferelden as their home.

2 things about the dalish example.

1. they were fleeing the darkspawn.

2. Flemeth got her to go there.

The Dalish are nomadic yes, but there were 2 entire clans at least in the forests during Origins. Point is the maps exist. 1 clan leaving (at the behest of an powerful, basically immortal witch) does not change things. I believe Dalish generally have to split up into areas so they're not too close together. They rarely ever all meet. So generally one or 2 clans could easily be in fereldon at the same time. Each just staying in spots for a short time and trading when needed. But you can't use it to negate a f'n map just cause your own role play for a character has you hating the humans or some crap.

[ddv.rsa]

Torax wrote...

The Dalish are nomadic yes, but there were 2 entire clans at least in the forests during Origins. Point is the maps exist. 1 clan leaving (at the behest of an powerful, basically immortal witch) does not change things. I believe Dalish generally have to split up into areas so they're not too close together. They rarely ever all meet. So generally one or 2 clans could easily be in fereldon at the same time. Each just staying in spots for a short time and trading when needed. But you can't use it to negate a f'n map just cause your own role play for a character has you hating the humans or some crap.

How am I negating the map? Spending some time in Ferelden doesn't make it their home (in the sense of a place one originates from and/or owes allegiance to). They aren't Ferelden subjects.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 18 juin 2011 - 12:20 .

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...
From cursory research:

*The Pilgrimage of Grace
* Bigod's rebellion
*The prayer book rebellion
*The rising of the north
*The Ridolfi plot
*The Babington plot
*The Throckmorton plot
*The Gunpowder plot
*Persecution of Catholics, including Elisabeth's government declaring all Catholic priests guilty of treason

I'm not claiming there was civil war or even mass riots. But there was some resistance. In the same way I think any Ferelden monarch attempting to eject the Chantry will encounter resistance. In the event of war with Orlais, I think that faction might assist the enemy.

None of that amounted to more than a hill of beans, and frankly the only reason it got the press it did was because of RCC influence in the rest of Europe at the time (this was the time of the Thirty Years War) and in particular SPANISH influence.  In fact the so-called Caltholic underground such as it was not only wanted to aid the enemy (Spanish) but did whenever possible.  It's greatest sucess was Guy Fawkes which should tell you everything you need to know about just how much the new Church of England was resisted by the population.

IT. WAS. NOT.

There is no reason to think that Fereldan would be different in this regard especially with a King (Alistair) who is actually more popular than Elizabeth was during her actual reign.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  It is also worth noting that almost all of these happened a generation AFTER King Henry VIII and after Edward VI and Elizabeth I changed the actual daily prayer to reflect a more protestant line.  The resistance to King Henry VIII's actual takeoever of the English church in the short run was basically 'nil ane even in the medium long term was frankly unimportant.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 18 juin 2011 - 12:41 .

[ddv.rsa]

Ian, you keep missing what I'm trying to say. Let's go over this piece by piece:

IanPolaris wrote...

None of that amounted to more than a hill of beans

It doesn't matter! My only point is that happened. The resistance was there. Whatever they
end up accomplishing, there will be a dissenting faction in Ferelden.

IanPolaris wrote...
In fact the so-called Caltholic underground such as it was not only
wanted to aid the enemy (Spanish) but did whenever possible.

Simmilarly, I think the pro-Chantry underground (largely nobles) will aid Orlais.

IanPolaris wrote...
It's greatest sucess was Guy Fawkes which should tell you everything you
need to know about just how much the new Church of England was resisted
by the population.
IT. WAS. NOT.

I never claimed there would be massive resistance by the general population. I claimed there would likely be a dissenting faction ready to support Orlais in the event of war.

My point: if Alistair breaks away from the Chantry, a subversive pro-Chantry underground will form.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 18 juin 2011 - 12:55 .

[Sanarion]

On the subject of the Dalish, if they were given land, they would likely side with Ferelden. Ferelden is the closest thing to a home they have, and even if they don't like, or trust Fereldens. Also, considering that Orlais were the ones who destroyed the Dales, it's likely the Dalish would oppose them, as Orlais seems even less Elf-Friendly than everywhere else. I wonder what kind of impact that would have on the War.

I think Orzimmar has a good chance of siding with Ferelden as well, but probably wouldn't send troops. On one hand, it seems Ferelden is the conveient trading partner they have, but Dwarfs don't like to send troops aboveground. So they'd probably have covert support in that quarter.

I think, however, outlawing, or causing a Chantry Schism would be BAD MOVE. Why?

Exalted March.

The Chantry has their fingers in a lot of pies, and their control is already weakening, with Kirkwall, and many other problems. Tevinter is bad enough, but at least it's contained there. If Alistair tried to make his own Church, I think every nation that the Chantry has any power in would be compelled to participate in putting down the "Heresy." The only chance Ferelden would have in that case would be allying with the Tevinter Imperium...which..wouldn't...be good. Or maybe submitting to the Qun.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Ian, you keep missing what I'm trying to say. Let's go over this piece by piece:

IanPolaris wrote...

None of that amounted to more than a hill of beans

It doesn't matter! My only point is that happened. The resistance was there. Whatever they
end up accomplishing, there will be a dissenting faction in Ferelden.

If that resistance doesn't make any real political difference than we can safely ignore it.  THAT is my point.

IanPolaris wrote...
In fact the so-called Caltholic underground such as it was not only
wanted to aid the enemy (Spanish) but did whenever possible.

Simmilarly, I think the pro-Chantry underground (largely nobles) will aid Orlais.

The problem with this is the most pro-Orlais noble (Arl Eamon) is firmly in King Alistair's corner which denies this faction a natural leader (with Queen Anora that's another story, but Queen Anora is harder than King Alistair).  Would you get the equivalent of a pro-Orlais/pro-Divine Fereldan noble garden club?  Probably. Would this make anyone lose sleep?  Probably not.

IanPolaris wrote...
It's greatest sucess was Guy Fawkes which should tell you everything you
need to know about just how much the new Church of England was resisted
by the population.
IT. WAS. NOT.

I never claimed there would be massive resistance by the general population. I claimed there would likely be a dissenting faction ready to support Orlais in the event of war.

My point: if Alistair breaks away from the Chantry, a subversive pro-Chantry underground will form.

My point is that you seem to be claiming that such resistance would be an important facet preventing Alistair from going "Church of England" on the Chantry.  I dispute this.

-Polaris

[Torax]

I don't know about Elves having it worse off in Orlais. Leliana seemed to think that Orlais valued them more than they seem to in Fereldon. Granted the Elven Grey Warden can take offense to how Leliana saw them in Orlais. But it seemed to imply that at the Elven Servs in Orlais are highly valued. Meanwhile in Fereldon the majority live in Alienages and are treated with bigotry and suspicion by many humans. Infact one of the claims in the Human Noble Origin is how the Elves are treated there is better than many other locations. I wonder if they get the switch in Orlais like they do in Fereldon...

[IanPolaris]

Sanarion wrote...

I think, however, outlawing, or causing a Chantry Schism would be BAD MOVE. Why?

Exalted March.

The Chantry has their fingers in a lot of pies, and their control is already weakening, with Kirkwall, and many other problems. Tevinter is bad enough, but at least it's contained there. If Alistair tried to make his own Church, I think every nation that the Chantry has any power in would be compelled to participate in putting down the "Heresy." The only chance Ferelden would have in that case would be allying with the Tevinter
Imperium...which..wouldn't...be good. Or maybe submitting to the Qun.

Actualy this is why "Going Church of England" is the perfect solution right now for Fereldan, and Mother Petrice (if you let her live) in Act III is openly defiant and is openly predicting a Chantry Schism anyway (which is confirmed if you read how Justina V was barely elected during the optional Sebastian-Harriman quest).  Even before Kirkwall, the Templars had far too many pots in the fire to recommend an exalted March on Fereldan as long as King Alistair played nice and didn't actually seize Chantry property.  Meredith was outraged, but it was clear that there was nothing more the Chantry could do to Fereldan at the moment.

Since that scene, the Chantry has gotten weaker and not stronger not just with the mass rebellion of the mages' circles, but also with the defection of the Templars who were heterfore the Church's primary military arm and the one that organized any would-be exalted march. 

Post Kirkwall, the only response the Andrastian nations would give a Divine call for an Exalted March would be to roll over in gales of Laughter.    Until the Chantry can get the Templar-Mage situatin under control, the Chantry can not call for any Exalted March, and King Alistair (and Queen Anora) damn well know it.  That makes it the perfect time to kick the Orlesian Chantry out and re-establish a purely "Fereldan" chantry in Andraste's image (which is how Alistair will market it).

-Polaris

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

My point is that you seem to be claiming that such resistance would be an important facet preventing Alistair from going "Church of England" on the Chantry.  I dispute this.

-Polaris

Would they be strong enough to stop him? No. There may be some rioting, perhaps a  few scattered rebellions (as with Henry VIII). Nothing he can't handle.

Would the underground cause considerable trouble during a war with Orlais? I think they might.

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

I don't know about Elves having it worse off in Orlais. Leliana seemed to think that Orlais valued them more than they seem to in Fereldon. Granted the Elven Grey Warden can take offense to how Leliana saw them in Orlais. But it seemed to imply that at the Elven Servs in Orlais are highly valued. Meanwhile in Fereldon the majority live in Alienages and are treated with bigotry and suspicion by many humans. Infact one of the claims in the Human Noble Origin is how the Elves are treated there is better than many other locations. I wonder if they get the switch in Orlais like they do in Fereldon...

Alienages in Orlais are some of the worst in Thedas, and Elves are treated little better than slaves in Orlais.  What Lelianna said was the Orlesian popular perpeception of slaves and you (if you play an elf) can call her on it and make her ashamed of it.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Would the underground cause considerable trouble during a war with Orlais? I think they might.

I don't.  The Chantry made itself far too unpopular with the common person (high church officials I mean) for King Alistair to lose any serious sleep over it.  That's expecially true if he gets KC Gregoire and his templars to swear fealty to the Chantry of Fereldan and to the Crown.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Sanarion]

Servants, yes. However, we're talking about the Dalish. For a city elf, Orlesian oppression might seem a little better. Then again, Orlais is a place where a Chevalier can rape you, then you get punished for complain..and that's if you're a human. I don't think Elves are anything more than..housepets there, honestly.

Ignoring that, the Dalish see Elves in the Alienage as "Not True Elves." I think they'd see the Elf-Servants for Orlais as even worse-traitors. Then, more importantly, Orlais was the Empire that forced them to become Dalish in the first place. Even being barely tolerated in the Brecilian Forest was better than what they'd get. During the Orleasian Occupation, the Dalish tribes in Ferelden fought the Orleasians when they encountered them, though they didn't side with the Fereldan army. I think, with the grant of land, they'd move to being simply enemies of the Orlaisians, to allies of Fereldan.

[Sanarion]

Polarus, post Kirkwall, you have a point. If Ferelden became a Scism, than they'd have to be ignored until the Mage/Templar problem was done. In fact, Post-Kirkwall, there are probably many, many such Schisms popping up, between various factions of the Chantry depending on their view of mages. If Kirkwall turned into a safe haven for mages, they'd likely get a lot of support. Then again, it might just make them a bigger target. I think, even without a hypothetical Orlesian War, with MageBoon!Alistair, Ferelden is going to become a hotspot, both from Apostate Mages seeking shelter, and the roguetemplar faction hunting them down.

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax wrote...

I don't know about Elves having it worse off in Orlais. Leliana seemed to think that Orlais valued them more than they seem to in Fereldon. Granted the Elven Grey Warden can take offense to how Leliana saw them in Orlais. But it seemed to imply that at the Elven Servs in Orlais are highly valued. Meanwhile in Fereldon the majority live in Alienages and are treated with bigotry and suspicion by many humans. Infact one of the claims in the Human Noble Origin is how the Elves are treated there is better than many other locations. I wonder if they get the switch in Orlais like they do in Fereldon...

Alienages in Orlais are some of the worst in Thedas, and Elves are treated little better than slaves in Orlais.  What Lelianna said was the Orlesian popular perpeception of slaves and you (if you play an elf) can call her on it and make her ashamed of it.

-Polaris

Leliana wasn't ashamed of her view of how they are treated. She's ashamed of offending the player as it came across to me. She appologies for clumsy her words were. The player then can call on her seeing elves differently than humans. That is what she is ashamed of. Not the fact of treatment. Infact she never recants that position. I know I've played it over and over. She just is sorry for looking at an Elven friend as an Elf and not just a person like herself. Get it? Would be like if you looked at a good friend of your's who happened to be hispanic but you only saw them as some stereotype like say an hispanic. Then you tried to tell them about how you saw hispanics where you grew up. Now if they were offended by a conversation about their race because you only saw them as their race? That is the offense.

Many in Fereldon were only acknowledging elves by their race. Hence the bigotry. But it was going both ways in Fereldon. Dalish calling humans shems and so on. The list goes on in that World. None are fair minded. That is truly what the Hero is calling Leliana on and what she appeared to be apologizing for. I didn't see anything like, "Oh you are right. They are so horribly treated there."

That is something you saw and definitely not something I was hearing in Leliana's voice...

[IanPolaris]

Perhaps, but the fact is that Elves do get the worst treatment in Orlais pretty much everywhere except possibly Tevinters where many really are slaves. Actually I'd say that even Tevinter treats elves better than Orlais given that Elves actually can ascent to the highest level of Tevinter society (Magister) with enough talent and hard work (and a lot of luck).

-Polaris

Edit:  I see your point and bigotry is everywhere but if you read the Codex entries on Elves and Alienages, Elves tend to be treated the worst in Orlais and the best in Fereldan.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 18 juin 2011 - 01:32 .

[ddv.rsa]

@Polaris: If DA3 lets you choose between saving the falling Chantry or finishing it off, what will you do?

My money is on finishing it.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

@Polaris: If DA3 lets you choose between saving the falling Chantry or finishing it off, what will you do?

My money is on finishing it.

That depends.  I have nothing against the Chantry as a religion.  It's much like RL Catholocism with some of the annoying parts cut and it's actual message to the pews is a good one for the most part.    I'd like to see the Chantry as a religion survive.

As for the Chantry as a political power?

I can't wait for the day it's dead and buried.  Religion and political power don't mesh well together.

-Polaris

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the Chantry as a political power?

That's what I meant.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the Chantry as a political power?

That's what I meant.

The chantry like any other organized religion has no business having any overt political power.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

Tell that to Meredith or the Templars who try to consolidate power in their attempts to remove Aveline as Guard Captain. The Chantry has had political power for far too long in the game. They won't give it up without a lot of dead bodies.