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[ipgd]

Bejos_ wrote...

That last paragraph is funny Brofist!
I don't see why their sexuality or lack thereof would make them any more or less of a whole character. (I guess, the fact that they aren't, to me, rounded characters, make it difficult for me to identify how something like sexuality takes away from what are already poorly-conceived characters.) Can you give me an example of how a DA2 characters suffers for being interpreted in one or other way? If this is just a personal niggle, fine

They don't, particularly. I just personally dislike it, and, again, I don't feel that interpretation was actively enforced by the narrative. Hence, why I was arguing Nightdragon8's issues with that interpretation, because if you are not satisfied by that interpretation (as I am not) you are still free to not interpret it that way. Based on what Anders says, for example, it's pretty easy to conclude that he is infact pansexual across all playthroughs and just does not immediately mention Karl to a female Hawke. But there is no point where he definitively says he is only interested in women on a female playthrough (and writer comments contradict that), or that he is only interested in men on a male playthrough (and his in-game comments both in Awakening and DA2 (his conversation about Karl where he expresses pansexual sentiments, his banter with Isabela about the "electricity thing") contradict that). There is room for that interpretation if you absolutely must, but there is enough evidence against it to reasonably conclude that it does not have to be true.

I considered that possibility. I don't interpret it that way (and I don't think it was meant to be interpreted that way), but it's certainly possible.

See, the problem with having this discussion is that it's all interpretations. We don't have anything concrete to go on. Sure, there are developer quotes for DA2 characters, but they never come right out and say, "ALL OF THESE CHARACTERS ARE GAY/BI/STRAIGHT." They always slightly skirt the edges of outright saying that.

Yes. My point is that they also don't definitively say their sexuality changes, either, so it is not necessary to see it that way.

[Sutekh]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

But in a way BW is giving us options we don't want to have. I mean I don't want to be given the option of wither X player is gay or not, because IRL its not MY choice wither someone else is gay or not.

Integrity. I can understand that. However, as has been pointed before, some consider say... Fenris in playthrough 1 not being the same Fenris as in playthrough 2. So integrity remains intact, since it's not the same person.

As it has been pointed, when it comes to sexuality, it's not necessarily a good thing to do. And anyway it's pure interpretation.

Let me put it this way, I don't mind X chacter being gay, but going though a different play though and then having a NPC say he is completely stright is just too strange. Because in reality it gives us less to discuss on the forums. Because when we go ont he forum the topic of "wow X NPC is gay" will be shot down as "he wasn't gay in my playthough because I was X"

It never happens. Not once in the game do any of the LIs states they're completely straight. In fact Isabela and Anders are the only ones to make any clear statement on their sexuality, and Anders only to a male PC ("Is it wrong to love someone because they're like you?" or something equivalent), which means he's either gay (but we know he isn't because of Awakening) or bi.

Now if the only concern is the discussions on the forum, you have plenty of other topics to discuss about them than "wow, he's gay!". Go to the DAO forum and look for threads about Leliana or Zevran (who are openly and clearly bi, without a doubt). The discussions there aren't about that at all.

And with the whole Anders going nuts and doing what he did in the game its going to be a hotbed of desstion of why he did what he did in the game. and havin his chacter be flexable is hard to talk about it. Granted all the talk about "The event" havn't gone there and doesn't really seem to publicly matter, I wouldn't doubt that people are thinking it tho.

Are you saying that people could think "the event" could be linked in any way to Anders's sexuality? Apart from the fact that Anders is most certainly bi since Awakening, what whom he sleeps with has to do with anything? You can still discuss away, because, as it is, sexuality is the only domain where Anders could be considered "flexible" (no pun intended). The aspects of him that count re: "the event" are really not.

So as I said it's not wither or not he is the way he is, its more of Why are we given a choice in the matter of him being that way or not. I could care less if Anders was gay or not why when I hear other people talk about what he says during "there" diologe that he was eomthing else.

Ah, I think thats the real problem normally with all other RPGs we come online to gossip about the chacters and sahre our veiws but in the events on the game you are given the choice of wither or not Anders is gay or not we can't gossip because "we chose him to be that way" 

I think we as a whole don't like to be given the power to decide for others in that sort of way.

I don't think the majority of the complaints have anything to do with that.

I'd also like to point out that if the characters are indeed bi (as opposed to undefined), there's really nothing changed by the player. "Bi" doesn't mean "can be changed at whim" or "one day I'm straight, one day I'm gay". It really doesn't. So here's your solution: if you want fixed, defined characters, consider them all bi.

[Bejos_]

ipgd wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

See, the problem with having this discussion is that it's all interpretations. We don't have anything concrete to go on. Sure, there are developer quotes for DA2 characters, but they never come right out and say, "ALL OF THESE CHARACTERS ARE GAY/BI/STRAIGHT." They always slightly skirt the edges of outright saying that.

Yes. My point is that they also don't definitively say their sexuality changes, either, so it is not necessary to see it that way.

Fair enough. I would just prefer to interpret a story as intending that a character be a certain non-bisexual orientation, rather than interpret the story from a standpoint of bisexuality. It just "sets" it, more, for me.

Good discussion.

Modifié par Bejos_, 18 juin 2011 - 03:23 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Anathemic wrote...

I'm just going from straight definition. If a homosexual male and a homosexual female get together and produce offspring and from then on stayed together...

Wait.  Why are you assuming they're staying together?  Or ever were "together".

You're applying a very narrow view of relationships.

[Bejos_]

woundedheart wrote...

~ 99% of the people discussing this topic with me just wanted to hear my opinions so they could attack them. I felt like no one was even bothering to understand what I was trying to say. And those who apparently did want to understand weren't even listening, so...

Felt like I was beating a dead horse there.

~ Anyway, I'm trying to catch up with all of your posts. I skimmed over a few interesting ones, so I want to read the rest.

I just wanted to make this post to let you know that I've read your replies to me, so they weren't in vain. I also wanted to clarify what I was trying to say, since I was running on 2 hours of sleep when I was here earlier and felt kind of out of it. It's hard to think when you're sleepy...

Eh, apologies For what it's worth, I agree with you on everything. When everyone's not bi-, they each seem more their own character, which solidifies the story for me.

If it had been specifically pointed out they were all bi-, and there were an in-game reason for it, I would have been completely cool with that, romances and all.

[Sylvius the Mad]

yaw wrote...

I think Gaider actually responded to this. He said that no matter how you imagine a character's sexuality to be, it doesn't change it. Just because you don't romance Anders and he doesn't mentioned sleeping with a man, doesn't mean it didn't happen. In other words: all of DA2's love interests are bisexual, no matter what you choose to do with them in your universe.

If this is truly David's position, then I strongly disagree with David on this.  Any detail that isn't made explicit within the game is available for the player to modify as he sees fit.

David's intentions with regard to a character cannot matter.

[GodWood]

Felt too tacked on for me so I just changed it in my head-canon.
Anders was gay, Isabela was bi and Fenris + Merrill were straight.

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

yaw wrote...

I think Gaider actually responded to this. He said that no matter how you imagine a character's sexuality to be, it doesn't change it. Just because you don't romance Anders and he doesn't mentioned sleeping with a man, doesn't mean it didn't happen. In other words: all of DA2's love interests are bisexual, no matter what you choose to do with them in your universe.

If this is truly David's position, then I strongly disagree with David on this.  Any detail that isn't made explicit within the game is available for the player to modify as he sees fit.

David's intentions with regard to a character cannot matter.

As far as I know, David hasn't said that.

I suspect people have taken his one of his numerous 'Don't assume X is true' statements to mean 'Y is true.'

[Bejos_]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

yaw wrote...

I think Gaider actually responded to this. He said that no matter how you imagine a character's sexuality to be, it doesn't change it. Just because you don't romance Anders and he doesn't mentioned sleeping with a man, doesn't mean it didn't happen. In other words: all of DA2's love interests are bisexual, no matter what you choose to do with them in your universe.

If this is truly David's position, then I strongly disagree with David on this.  Any detail that isn't made explicit within the game is available for the player to modify as he sees fit.

David's intentions with regard to a character cannot matter.

As far as I know, David hasn't said that.

I suspect people have taken his one of his numerous 'Don't assume X is true' statements to mean 'Y is true.'

For all the talking David does, he doesn't actually say much.
No one's specifically said, "All the characters are X sexuality."
Vagueness even with regard to characters ...

[Zeevico]

To me bisexuality in DA2 seemed simply like a lazy design choice rather than informed take on gender or sexuality. But maybe I'm wrong on that count. Honestly, who cares? If they're convincing as characters that's all that matters. I guess I was never really convinced that Merrill was gay. I was never convinced that DAA Anders was gay altogether much though DA2 Anders I was sort of more convinced. I was never convinced that Fenris was gay, but then again I was never convinced of much at all about Fenris in the first place. He seemed to me like a character parachuted in to give an anti-blood magic perspective on the world and in that sense, felt one-dimensional.

Modifié par Zeevico, 18 juin 2011 - 08:34 .

[veramis]

There are nutritional and toxicological factors in the function of the hormonal and endocrine systems. I often see discussion on sexuality that don't acknowledge any influence other than social or cultural ones, and I don't think such talks are of much use other than to practice arguing the fine points of political correctness. A person does consciously decide what he does in his sex life, but his feelings or tendencies are determined by the state of internal functioning which is less controlled by conscious decision than, say, a nutritional deficiency that causes hypothyroidism. Sexual preference may be a choice, but many of the physical abnormalities we see today are due to malnutrition, and endocrine and hormonal disruptors. DDT was a widely publicized endocrine disruptor, but there still are many others we are exposed to and just as poisonous in modern environments. Without looking at how our bodies have been malnutritioned and poisoned, is it not pointless then to discuss sexuality, which is influenced by feelings, and feelings by the state of internal functioning?

[whykikyouwhy]

veramis wrote...

There are nutritional and toxicological factors in the function of the hormonal and endocrine systems. I often see discussion on sexuality that don't acknowledge any influence other than social or cultural ones, and I don't think such talks are of much use other than to practice arguing the fine points of political correctness. A person does consciously decide what he does in his sex life, but his feelings or tendencies are determined by the state of internal functioning which is less controlled by conscious decision than, say, a nutritional deficiency that causes hypothyroidism. Sexual preference may be a choice, but many of the physical abnormalities we see today are due to malnutrition, and endocrine and hormonal disruptors. DDT was a widely publicized endocrine disruptor, but there still are many others we are exposed to and just as poisonous in modern environments. Without looking at how our bodies have been malnutritioned and poisoned, is it not pointless then to discuss sexuality, which is influenced by feelings, and feelings by the state of internal functioning?

While you make some valid points on how biology influences a person's behaviors, and how environmental factors may influence said biology, your post focuses on negative things - malnutrition and abnormalities. In the context of this thread (which I did not create, but I feel I have a handle on the direction of at least), sexuality, and how a person practices his/her sexual desires, is not an abnormality (and yes, I know people can argue that in many different directions). I think the focus was on the sexuality of the companions in DA2 - how players felt about what they perceived their sexuality to be, how that affected gameplay, etc.

And while DA2 may have some basis in the world as we know it, that does not necessarily mean that Thedans (not sure if that is the right word) share a similar biological make-up to ourselves.

[ipgd]

veramis wrote...

There are nutritional and toxicological factors in the function of the hormonal and endocrine systems. I often see discussion on sexuality that don't acknowledge any influence other than social or cultural ones, and I don't think such talks are of much use other than to practice arguing the fine points of political correctness. A person does consciously decide what he does in his sex life, but his feelings or tendencies are determined by the state of internal functioning which is less controlled by conscious decision than, say, a nutritional deficiency that causes hypothyroidism. Sexual preference may be a choice, but many of the physical abnormalities we see today are due to malnutrition, and endocrine and hormonal disruptors. DDT was a widely publicized endocrine disruptor, but there still are many others we are exposed to and just as poisonous in modern environments. Without looking at how our bodies have been malnutritioned and poisoned, is it not pointless then to discuss sexuality, which is influenced by feelings, and feelings by the state of internal functioning?

... Wait, you lost me. Are you saying gays are created by malnutrition? Have you ever seen a bear?

[Pasquale1234]

GodWood wrote...

Felt too tacked on for me so I just changed it in my head-canon.
Anders was gay, Isabela was bi and Fenris + Merrill were straight.

Perfect solution.

Isabela is the only character who clearly identifies her orientation in every playthrough.  All of the other LIs allow the player optimal choice in role-playing and creating whatever head-canon is most appropriate for them in that playthrough.

[Cutlass Jack]

ipgd wrote...
... Wait, you lost me. Are you saying gays are created by malnutrition? Have you ever seen a bear?

This explains much about Elves...

[dcinroc]

veramis wrote...

There are nutritional and toxicological factors in the function of the hormonal and endocrine systems. I often see discussion on sexuality that don't acknowledge any influence other than social or cultural ones, and I don't think such talks are of much use other than to practice arguing the fine points of political correctness. A person does consciously decide what he does in his sex life, but his feelings or tendencies are determined by the state of internal functioning which is less controlled by conscious decision than, say, a nutritional deficiency that causes hypothyroidism. Sexual preference may be a choice, but many of the physical abnormalities we see today are due to malnutrition, and endocrine and hormonal disruptors. DDT was a widely publicized endocrine disruptor, but there still are many others we are exposed to and just as poisonous in modern environments. Without looking at how our bodies have been malnutritioned and poisoned, is it not pointless then to discuss sexuality, which is influenced by feelings, and feelings by the state of internal functioning?

While this is certainly a topic worthy of discussion, I don't  think is the right forum for it. Few if any posters here have the requisite knowledge and background to engage the topic meaningfully.

It's just begging for trouble and for the thread to be closed down.

[trademark2]

I dont see what the problem is... you don't have to get into romances if you don't want to. But maybe instead of having the characters act based on your gender you could have options to check in the character select screen to have your character be either gay, bi, or straight. Then have the characters act accordingly.

I don't think its wrong for a gay PC to be able to have a relationship with whoever he or she wants, since it's a game. obviously in real life it would be different, but its not real life. And if there was an option to choose your characters sexual orientation like that, it would add the consistancy that many people want, as straight people would always select straight, and gay people would always select gay. If they didn't, then it would be their own fault that there wasn't consistancy in their playthroughs.

Modifié par trademark2, 18 juin 2011 - 05:37 .

[DragonAddict]

I think its very sad when individuals are making a huge issue about sexuality in games and DA2, like they have nothing else better to do with their lives. Perhaps they have some bigger issues to deal with?! This is a game, designed and programmed with set parameters. Some will be gay, les, bi and straight. If you don't like the fact that the majority are not bi, then stop playing the game and go out. But in the real world, people have choices they can make with moral free will (no gun to your head) and some will agree, and some will disagree. If you don't like it when some disagree with your choices in life, deal with it. Everyone in the real world is not bi (gay/les) and never will be. How do you think we got to the population of 5+ billion in a relatively short time period? Go out and meet someone, enjoy your life, instead of nit picking apart DA2 because not everyone is bi..........not realistic at all. And I've worked with gay/les co-worker and we got along great and some were the nicest friends I had at the time. Some were the classic cliche dressing and stereo type acting as well. Nuff said.I personally don't think your sexuality is purely genetic becasue those genes never get passed on and you know what I mean. I think its just moral free will and choice and part of the human condition. Maybe one day through science we will finally figure out if its mainly genetic afterall or if it was mainly choice afterall..........who knows and maybe we will never find out. As long as choices in life aren't foreced on others, no problems with me but when you're labeled as this only because you don't agree with something, that's wrong no matter how you slice it.

Modifié par DragonAddict, 18 juin 2011 - 06:54 .

[dcinroc]

DragonAddict wrote...

I personally don't think your sexuality is purely genetic becasue those genes never get passed on and you know what I mean. I think its just moral free will and choice and part of the human condition. Maybe one day through science we will finally figure out if its mainly genetic afterall or if it was mainly choice afterall..........who knows and maybe we will never find out.

Not to flame you, but your opinion on the genetic basis of sexuality (or lack of)  is irrelevant if you lack a basic knowledge of how genes even work.

Some genes are expressed faithfully from one generation to the next. However, others can be dormant for generation after generation until something activates it. Furthermore, the same gene can actually express itself differently in different people. Some genes are simple "on/off", but some act synergistically with other genes and/or even environmental cues.

I certainly don't know the answer to the "gay gene" question. And frankly, a humble recognition that I lack the requisite knowledge keeps me from expressing any opinion on the matter. Science is like that.

One thing I do have an opinion on is that genetics is largely irrelevant to the politcal question of gay rights in general and all of it is irrelevant to question of if/when/how game companies should implement sexuality in their games.

Modifié par dcinroc, 18 juin 2011 - 09:57 .

[Selene Moonsong]

My only issue with this topic is how the term 'bisexual' is being used, nothing more, nothing less.

The characters that are of romantic interest, unless otherwise revealed within the context of the game, may be either gay or straight, depending on whether or not a player chooses to acknowledge the romantic interest

In DA Origins, you have three characters that are revealed as being bisexual, only if playing a male PC; if playing a female, there are only two. In DA II, there are two characters who are designed to be bisexual. Other than that, characters can only be considered as being straight or gay by today's definitions.

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 18 juin 2011 - 11:37 .

[ipgd]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

My only issue with this topic is how the term 'bisexual' is being used, nothing more, nothing less.

The characters that are of romantic interest, unless otherwise revealed within the context of the game, may be either gay or straight, depending on whether or not a player chooses to acknowledge the romantic interest

In DA Origins, you have three characters that are revealed as being bisexual, only if playing a male PC; if playing a female, there are only two. In DA II, there are two characters who are designed to be bisexual. Other than that, characters can only be considered as being straight or gay by today's definitions.

... But that is incorrect. That is not how sexuality works. The absence of a definitive statement of bisexuality is not evidence of an exclusive sexuality.

One may choose to interpret the information as they please, including the assumption that these "subjective" characters have differing fixed sexualities based on the player character's gender, but there is not any definitive, conclusive evidence within the game that they cannot be bisexual. That is still very much a legitimate interpretation.

Again: What dialogue within the game indicates that, say, Merrill, cannot be interested in women when she is with a male player, or interested in men when she is with a female player? She does not mention anything about her sexual history. Conclusive statements like this cannot be made without conclusive evidence.

[Oopsieoops]

My whole beef with this whole all-bi business is that they seemed to effectively avoid having the characters talk about their sexuality in a effort to keep it malleable. For instance, my only playthrough was with a female Hawke, and as such I never got the part where Anders talks about Karl. I only learned about it on the forums, and I think that I was effectively shut out of a huge aspect of Anders' character and history merely for being female.
So yeah, in that way the all-bi (or rather, the all-malleable) approach does make the characters a bit more shallow than if their sexuality were set in stone and obvious regardless of your PC's gender. No pun intended.

Modifié par Oopsieoops, 19 juin 2011 - 01:16 .

[Pasquale1234]

Oopsieoops wrote...

My whole beef with this whole all-bi business is that they seemed to effectively avoid having the characters talk about their sexuality in a effort to keep it malleable. For instance, my only playthrough was with a female Hawke, and as such I never got the part where Anders talks about Karl. I only learned about it on the forums, and I think that I was effectively shut out of a huge aspect of Anders' character and history merely for being female.
So yeah, in that way the all-bi (or rather, the all-malleable) approach does make the characters a bit more shallow than if their sexuality were set in stone and obvious regardless of your PC's gender. No pun intended.

Valid point, but I fear that they might strive to make the characters much more shallow and generic if their sexuality was not malleable.

Consider the challenges inherent in designing only 1 available romance per gender/orientation (e.g., 1 straight male, 1 gay male, 1 straight female, 1 gay female).  Ideally, you would want the one available romance option (2 if the PC is bi) for any given playthrough to appeal to the broadest spectrum of player tastes, views, etc., possible - so you may feel the need to somehow tone down and genericize the personalities and characterizations so players would not be dissatisfied with that single option.

And you'd still have people unhappy with the option they were given, complaining that another character that was assigned a different sexuality would have been more to their liking.