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[mesmerizedish]

Filament wrote...

Two characters are bisexual. Anders had his relation with Karl and his comments in Awakening establishing his affinity for both men and women respectively.

Anders is more pansexual. And Merrill and Fenris could very well be bisexual. Fenris says that the Fog Warriors were [meaningful pause] free with their affections. At the very least, he thinks bisexuality is pretty ******.

[Harid]

Filament wrote...

Two characters are bisexual. Anders had his relation with Karl and his comments in Awakening establishing his affinity for both men and women respectively.

IIRC the relationship is non existant if you play a female and come on to Anders.

And his comments in awakening seemed mighty straight to me, but whatever.  Sequals give new insights into things.

I'm not going to trust what the writers say *now* to excuse their hawkesexuality.  If you have something that they said when Awakening came out I'd let Anders go, though.

Modifié par Harid, 22 juin 2011 - 09:57 .

[mesmerizedish]

Harid wrote...

Filament wrote...

Two characters are bisexual. Anders had his relation with Karl and his comments in Awakening establishing his affinity for both men and women respectively.

IIRC the relationship is non existant if you play a female and come on to Anders.

Not mentioned does not mean non-existant. If you're playing a male character and act like a dick to him, he also doesn't mention his relationship with Karl, but it still happened.

And his comments in awakening seemed mighty straight to me, but whatever.  Sequals give new insights into things.

Do you know what "respectively" means?

[Maria Caliban]

Harid wrote...

Every time a person says something to the effect of "Gays could hide their gayness, black people cannot" Gays get mad, because they feel being gay is a LARGE part of their selves, and they feel they shouldn't have to hide themselves from people, yes? 

Some do, yes. It's not the same though. Historically, culturally, and when it comes to individual experience and impact, race and sexual orientation aren't the equivalent.

While the black civil rights movement is the basis for all other civil rights movements in the USA, they all have their specific issues. Equating the two doesn't make much sense beyond pointing out that both minority groups are subject to injustices.

That said, yes, many queer people feel their sexual orientation is a large part of themselves, but there are many who don't feel that way. It can be a contentious issue even within the community.

Conversely, one should feel that Hawkesexual characters are an insult to themselves, because sexuality is a large part of what makes you you. 

Hawke isn't me. Even if I thought of Hawke as being me, my issue is with my ability to define and express Hawke's sexuality, not Merrill or Isabela's.

You can't then, have it both ways and state it isn't a big deal here, but is so in real life.  That's hypocrisy.

By that reasoning, if you think murder is a big deal in real life, then you're also a hypocrite for playing DA because it doesn't make a big deal out of Hawke's slaughtering people, save to praise her and make her a Champion.

In both instances, the game sidesteps real world issues for the sake of player enjoyment.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 juin 2011 - 09:59 .

[ademska]

harid, that doesn't negate its existence. we can get into metagaming all we want, but the second point about hepler and gaider still stands. it is part of his character history that he slept with and was attracted to karl thekla. anders is attracted to men and women. or, if you want to get technical, the entire spectrum of gender.

and i am here right now, leaving pithy comments, because i still fail to understand why anyone gives such a ****.

Modifié par ademska, 22 juin 2011 - 10:04 .

[masterthief]

Harid wrote...

masterthief wrote...

Harid wrote...

Sexuality is a defining trait in a person.

If it weren't the case, I don't think so many gays would make the correlation between the gay rights movement and the civil rights movement. as so far that one is a visible minority, and the other is not.

Okay, this is off topic but since you brought it up: there is no comparison between the queer movement and the civil rights movement.   Any gay people making it do not speak for everyone.   It's ridiculous, especially considering the prevalent racism (and apologism for it because, "I can't be racist, I'm gay," etc) within the gay community to make a comparison like that.   Please don't assume that a vocal group speaks for the entire community.   As a gay person I'd like to see more representation of gay people doing "normal" things instead of being treated as an unrelatable "other" who is either a complete stereotype/punchline, loaded with gay shame regardless of the environment, or otherwise treated to be unrelatable to heterosexual people which most gay characters in mainstream media are.  A lot of people still have the belief that being anything but straight is weird/bad/etc, and it's my hope that if there were more shoot 'em up games or games in general where the cool, awesome characters just happened to be gay/lesbian/bisexual, that would be pretty neat.

I'm still confused as to how bisexuality is what's being focused on to be "unrealistic" while Hawke fights dragons.  Last I checked there wasn't a high dragon outside of my window, so I'd say that's pretty unrealistic.   Dragon Age II is a fantasy game.  It's not meant to be an exact representation of reality, and even if it was, it would be downright impossible to ascertain an exact ratio of straight people  to LGB people because a lot of people are in the closet for various reasons in current society.

The fact is that most games pander in one way or another.  It's how companies make their money.  But  I don't see too many people getting angry and calling things to be unrealistic when every lady in a game has giant breasts and a rocket launcher to blow things up because games like that are pandering to heterosexual dudes.   Bioware decided to expand their market to keep up with the information that hey, not everyone who plays a video game is a straight dude, and now comes the complaining about pandering.    What exactly is the problem when you're playing a fantasy game to actually have all of the options be open to you rather than how they're closed off in nearly every other game?  Romances in general pander to heterosexual people, because typically the only options you have are heterosexual.   I still don't see how it cheapens or weakens the characters, because the two characters who are actually "Hawkesexual" both have good reasons for it.  

Also, just as a side note, since we're talking about LGB options, can we not throw LGBT around since what we're discussing here has absolutely nothing to do with trans* people? 

I've stated it before but I feel that Bioware should create romances with NPC's that aren't part of the party that people could meet up with and talk to outside of the party, as it would allow party members to not neccessarily be attracted to the pc, and it would allow more fleshed out romances of different orientations.  Ultimately I want it closer to Persona 4 with bisexual and homosexual choices, as it would give fleshed out relationships with everyone yet I won't have to deal with the contrived notion that everyone is attracted to the main character, and that relationships based on conflict always work out.

But then people talk about funding, and it goes no where.

And to correct, 3 characters are hawkesexual, one is actually a bisexual.

And please don't bring up dragons when people speak of realism.  Even fantasy has a plausible level of realism that it adheres to so people can become immersed in the world.

I didn't really like Persona 4 and didn't get very far in it so I can't say anything on that.   I agree that the concept of everyone being attached to the main character is a bit problematic, but again--that's how it is when it comes to just about every game I've played where you have romance options, except in the others it's only heterosexual attraction.   In Dragon Age II, you have the option of more than just heterosexual attraction and people are bent out of shape about it calling "pandering".    In Mass Effect, all of the "gender specific" romance interests are all attracted to Shepard.   I don't see anyone saying it's unrealistic for Ashley, Tali, Liara, Kelly and Miranda to be interested in a male Shepard at the same time, or saying Kaidan, Garrus, Liara, Kelly and Thane to be attracted to a female Shepard at the same time.  Once you start throwing in homosexual or bisexual options, that's when people become critical, complain about pandering, and make threads like "Bisexuality in Dragon Age II".   Again, all romance options are pandering.    Bioware has just taken note of the actual demographic of people who play games and made an effort to make sure that all people can "immerse themselves in the world".    Why is being bisexual not a "plausible level of realism"?   I have to say personally as a gay man that being actually able to initiate a romance between two men made things feel a lot more plausible to me than exclusively heterosexual romance options.  

If you want to address the issue of every possible romance option being attracted to the MC, then that's a totally fair statement.   The problem I (and several others) have in this thread with that is that the bisexual options are the ones being singled out as "unrealistic" while heterosexual ones are not.

Also,  I'd say only two: Fenris and Merrill.  Anders already slept with Karl.  

[Harid]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Harid wrote...

Every time a person says something to the effect of "Gays could hide their gayness, black people cannot" Gays get mad, because they feel being gay is a LARGE part of their selves, and they feel they shouldn't have to hide themselves from people, yes? 

Some do, yes. It's not the same though. Historically, culturally, and when it comes to individual experience and impact, race and sexual orientation aren't the equivalent.

While the black civil rights movement is the basis for all other civil rights movements in the USA, they all have their specific issues. Equating the two doesn't make much sense beyond pointing out that both minority groups are subject to injustices.

That said, yes, many queer people feel their sexual orientation is a large part of themselves, but there are many who don't feel that way. It can be a contentious issue even within the community.

Conversely, one should feel that Hawkesexual characters are an insult to themselves, because sexuality is a large part of what makes you you. 

Hawke isn't me. Even if I thought of Hawke as being me, my issue is with my ability to define and express Hawke's sexuality, not Merrill or Isabela's.

You can't then, have it both ways and state it isn't a big deal here, but is so in real life.  That's hypocrisy.

By that reasoning, if you think murder is a big deal in real life, then you're also a hypocrite for playing DA because it doesn't make a big deal out of Hawke's slaughtering people save to praise her and make her a Champion.

In both instances, the game sidesteps real world issues for the sake of player enjoyment.

1) I apologize for painting all homosexuals are part of a monolithic group.

2) Some people feel that their character should not be able to influence the sexuality of others, as we are not playing a JRPG with teenagers, most of our party are adults in a society that doesn't give a damn about sexuality.  As such, there is not reason for them to be in the closet until you came along, because you are so awesome you can influence them.  This is a choice they should have come to on their own, like an adult would.

3)  Not really the same thing given they don't make rpg's where you can avoid all conflicts through talking anymore.

[22nd MadJack]

ipgd wrote...
Why? Do bisexuals exert a sort of repulsion field, preventing them from convening with eachother? Why is four bisexuals too many?

Because it feels contrived.  Though clearly not to you.

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

I'm not going to trust what the writers say *now* to excuse their hawkesexuality.  If you have something that they said when Awakening came out I'd let Anders go, though.

The fact he recounts having non-Hawke sexual encounters kinda discounts that in itself. He's textually bisexual now.

[ipgd]

22nd MadJack wrote...

Because it feels contrived.  Though clearly not to you.

All romances are contrived. Why are you complaining about the bisexuality specifically?

[ademska]

22nd MadJack wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Why? Do bisexuals exert a sort of repulsion field, preventing them from convening with eachother? Why is four bisexuals too many?

Because it feels contrived.  Though clearly not to you.

you've yet to put forth a real argument, anecdotal or statistical, that explains your opinion in the context of "bisexuality". or, i should say, an argument that holds any weight.

we have.

Modifié par ademska, 22 juin 2011 - 10:05 .

[Harid]

masterthief wrote...

I didn't really like Persona 4 and didn't get very far in it so I can't say anything on that.   I agree that the concept of everyone being attached to the main character is a bit problematic, but again--that's how it is when it comes to just about every game I've played where you have romance options, except in the others it's only heterosexual attraction.   In Dragon Age II, you have the option of more than just heterosexual attraction and people are bent out of shape about it calling "pandering".    In Mass Effect, all of the "gender specific" romance interests are all attracted to Shepard.   I don't see anyone saying it's unrealistic for Ashley, Tali, Liara, Kelly and Miranda to be interested in a male Shepard at the same time, or saying Kaidan, Garrus, Liara, Kelly and Thane to be attracted to a female Shepard at the same time.  Once you start throwing in homosexual or bisexual options, that's when people become critical, complain about pandering, and make threads like "Bisexuality in Dragon Age II".   Again, all romance options are pandering.    Bioware has just taken note of the actual demographic of people who play games and made an effort to make sure that all people can "immerse themselves in the world".    Why is being bisexual not a "plausible level of realism"?   I have to say personally as a gay man that being actually able to initiate a romance between two men made things feel a lot more plausible to me than exclusively heterosexual romance options.  

If you want to address the issue of every possible romance option being attracted to the MC, then that's a totally fair statement.   The problem I (and several others) have in this thread with that is that the bisexual options are the ones being singled out as "unrealistic" while heterosexual ones are not.

Also,  I'd say only two: Fenris and Merrill.  Anders already slept with Karl.  

To your first point, the topic of the thread, again.  I'd understand that argument if this was a thread about general relationships, but it is not, it's about that Hawkesexual choices we have, and some of us don't like the idea that we can influence character sexuality.  I answered some of you other issues in another post.  I don't think they made these choices for their homesexual and bisexual audience, I think they made these choices for themselves so they didn't have to write out plausible, interesting romances for each sexual orientation, they simply had to chage a few pronouns.  If romances are as big a deal as Bioware seems to want to treat them, I expect better.

And once again, Anders does not talk about being in a relationship with Karl if you romance him as a female.  You influence his orientation, in a late 20's early 30's year old man, and that is contrived to me.  Could an awesome person that is not part of your sexual orientation make any poster here persue a relationship with them?  I am not wired tht way, and most people would say the same thing.

Modifié par Harid, 22 juin 2011 - 10:11 .

[22nd MadJack]

ipgd wrote...
All romances are contrived. Why are you complaining about the bisexuality specifically?

Would you complain if there were only heterosexuality?

[ademska]

@harid

"you don't think"? you have absolutely no idea why the writers made the choices they did. but i can draw a reasonable assumption given gaider's consistent "shut up" attitude toward threads like this that they wanted to allow people like me, people like ipgd, people like masterthief, and millions of others the opportunity to romance whoever the hell we want.

you know, like heterosexually-inclined romancers have been able to do for years.

and let's not get into this f! versus m!hawke anders karl debate again. you're being willfully stubborn if you don't accept that as part of anders' established character history he SLEPT WITH A MAN. if we take that argument to its logical conclusion, if you don't recruit isabela in a playthrough, anders also never went to the pearl.

and that's just silly.

Modifié par ademska, 22 juin 2011 - 10:13 .

[mesmerizedish]

Harid wrote...

And once again, Anders does not talk about being in a relationship with Karl if you romance him as a female

And once again, it still happened.

[Harid]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Harid wrote...

And once again, Anders does not talk about being in a relationship with Karl if you romance him as a female

And once again, it still happened.

Now you are metagaming, though, as you have no reason to know, experiance or have the knowledge that any such relationship existed.

[mesmerizedish]

22nd MadJack wrote...

ipgd wrote...
All romances are contrived. Why are you complaining about the bisexuality specifically?

Would you complain if there were only heterosexuality?

Yes, because that would limit choices. I'm gayer than a three-dollar bill, and I'd still complain if all the romances were homosexual.

[mesmerizedish]

Harid wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Harid wrote...

And once again, Anders does not talk about being in a relationship with Karl if you romance him as a female

And once again, it still happened.

Now you are metagaming, though, as you have no reason to know, experiance or have the knowledge that any such relationship existed.

So? You're not influencing his sexuality just because you don't know something about him, which is what you're saying.

[hoorayforicecream]

Harid wrote...

To your first point, the topic of the thread, again.  I'd understand that argument if this was a thread about general relationships, but it is not, it's about that Hawkesexual choices we have, and some of us don't like the idea that we can influence character sexuality.  I answered some of you other issues in another post.  I don't think they made these choices for their homesexual and bisexual audience, I think they made these choices for themselves so they didn't have to write out plausible, interesting romances for each sexual orientation, they simply had to chage a few pronouns.  If romances are as big a deal as Bioware seems to want to treat them, I expect better.

They've already said that the primary reason for bisexual love interests is for practical purposes. They did this in order to maximize the possible character-player interactions and romance choices available.  It's likely to remain this way in the future, because they don't have the luxury of that much development time. You may not like it, some folks may think it is unrealistic and immersion-breaking, but them's the breaks. Few enough people actually participate in the romances that it's effectively giving the writers carte blanche with how they wish to do it, as long as they stay within the appropriate guidelines. If you don't like it, there's a whole genre of dating simulations out there to peruse.

And once again, Anders does not talk about being in a relationship with Karl if you romance him as a female.  You influence his orientation, and that is contrived.

Doesn't talk about does not equate to didn't happen. Maybe Anders just doesn't feel comfortable about telling a lady Hawke about Karl. This doesn't necessarily influence his orientation, just what he's comfortable talking about.

[Harid]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Harid wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Harid wrote...

And once again, Anders does not talk about being in a relationship with Karl if you romance him as a female

And once again, it still happened.

Now you are metagaming, though, as you have no reason to know, experiance or have the knowledge that any such relationship existed.

So? You're not influencing his sexuality just because you don't know something about him, which is what you're saying.

If he were considered a Bisexual when female Hawke romances him, as far as I know he never brings it up.

When you have characters like Isabela, Leliana, and Zevran, who have brought up their past with you, no matter what sex you are when romancing them, I have trouble beleiving, if they wanted Anders to truly be bisexual, they would not have mentioned this romance.  As so far as your knowledge is in the game, this relationship never existed.

As you guys state, sexual orientation doesn't mean anything in Thedas.  So why keep the past from you in this case?

Modifié par Harid, 22 juin 2011 - 10:17 .

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

To your first point, the topic of the thread, again.  I'd understand that argument if this was a thread about general relationships, but it is not, it's about that Hawkesexual choices we have, and some of us don't like the idea that we can influence character sexuality.  I answered some of you other issues in another post.  I don't think they made these choices for their homesexual and bisexual audience, I think they made these choices for themselves so they didn't have to write out plausible, interesting romances for each sexual orientation, they simply had to chage a few pronouns.  If romances are as big a deal as Bioware seems to want to treat them, I expect better.

And once again, Anders does not talk about being in a relationship with Karl if you romance him as a female.  You influence his orientation, in a late 20's early 30's year old man, and that is contrived to me.  Could an awesome person that is not part of your sexual orientation make any poster here persue a relationship with them?  I am not wired tht way, and most people would say the same thing.

They are left open to interpretation. You are free to consider the "Hawkesexual" characters as defined bisexuals if you wish, as I do. They only have changing orientations if you want them to. I don't like the Shrodinger's Sexuality either, but the romances are specifically written so that is not definitive, either.

That he does not mention it does not mean it never happened. There are any number of reasons a bisexual man would decline to expound on the details of his sexual history with men to his female partner. If you insist on this as evidence that his sexuality changes, it's your own fault.

I'd rather these characters be written with defined [bisexual] sexualities as well, because I feel these characters are written more with an eye for not assaulting people's delicate sensibilities with too many out and open bisexuals and it bothers me on principle, but that is a different complaint.

Anders, though, is defined.

22nd MadJack wrote...

Would you complain if there were only heterosexuality?

Yes. Not because it would be "unrealistic" or "contrived", though.

Modifié par ipgd, 22 juin 2011 - 10:18 .

[mesmerizedish]

Harid wrote...

If he were considered a Bisexual when female Hawke romances him, as far as I know he never brings it up.

But he still is. That he doesn't feel the need to tell you about his sexy!times with Karl doesn't mean anything about him has changed.

When you have characters like Isabela, Leliana, and Zevran, who have brought up their past with you, no matter what sex you are when romancing them, I have trouble beleiving, if they wanted Anders to truly be bisexual, they would not have mentioned this romance.  As so far as your knowledge is in the game, this relationship never existed.

Anders mentioning it to Lady Hawke would be out of character for him, for reasons that I'd love to let ipgd explain. I'm astonished that you're arguing against bi LIs by arguing in favor of character derailment.

[Maugrim]

Harid wrote...

As you guys state, sexual orientation doesn't mean anything in Thedas.  So why keep the past from you in this case?

Convienent that you take people on there word when it supports what you want to believe.

Sexuality DOES matter in Thedas.  Check out the official wiki on it.  It's just not as big a deal in Thedas.  Also Gaider said we are free to interpet the characters as we wish.  Not that it matter because

David Gaider wrote...

"My point is that their actions don't change, yet some people are deciding that their inference is enough to suggest the characters alter their preferences at the player's whim. Even if they did, I'm not sure that would be a crime. Regardless, it's not the case."

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 22 juin 2011 - 10:22 .

[masterthief]

Harid wrote...

masterthief wrote...

I didn't really like Persona 4 and didn't get very far in it so I can't say anything on that.   I agree that the concept of everyone being attached to the main character is a bit problematic, but again--that's how it is when it comes to just about every game I've played where you have romance options, except in the others it's only heterosexual attraction.   In Dragon Age II, you have the option of more than just heterosexual attraction and people are bent out of shape about it calling "pandering".    In Mass Effect, all of the "gender specific" romance interests are all attracted to Shepard.   I don't see anyone saying it's unrealistic for Ashley, Tali, Liara, Kelly and Miranda to be interested in a male Shepard at the same time, or saying Kaidan, Garrus, Liara, Kelly and Thane to be attracted to a female Shepard at the same time.  Once you start throwing in homosexual or bisexual options, that's when people become critical, complain about pandering, and make threads like "Bisexuality in Dragon Age II".   Again, all romance options are pandering.    Bioware has just taken note of the actual demographic of people who play games and made an effort to make sure that all people can "immerse themselves in the world".    Why is being bisexual not a "plausible level of realism"?   I have to say personally as a gay man that being actually able to initiate a romance between two men made things feel a lot more plausible to me than exclusively heterosexual romance options.  

If you want to address the issue of every possible romance option being attracted to the MC, then that's a totally fair statement.   The problem I (and several others) have in this thread with that is that the bisexual options are the ones being singled out as "unrealistic" while heterosexual ones are not.

Also,  I'd say only two: Fenris and Merrill.  Anders already slept with Karl.  

To your first point, the topic of the thread, again.  I'd understand that argument if this was a thread about general relationships, but it is not, it's about that Hawkesexual choices we have, and some of us don't like the idea that we can influence character sexuality.  I answered some of you other issues in another post.  I don't think they made these choices for their homesexual and bisexual audience, I think they made these choices for themselves so they didn't have to write out plausible, interesting romances for each sexual orientation, they simply had to chage a few pronouns.  If romances are as big a deal as Bioware seems to want to treat them, I expect better.

And once again, Anders does not talk about being in a relationship with Karl if you romance him as a female.  You influence his orientation, in a late 20's early 30's year old man, and that is contrived to me.  Could an awesome person that is not part of your sexual orientation make any poster here persue a relationship with them?  I am not wired tht way, and most people would say the same thing.

I know what the topic of this thread is. My point is that there aren't threads dedicated to "Heterosexuality in Mass Effect 2".    Again, all romance options are pandering, but Bioware is expanding the demographic they're pandering to, and as someone who is gay (and I don't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself) that's a neat thing to do.  It makes the game more enjoyable for me to not have to deal with what I see as a contrived heterosexual romance when you can completely create a character (ie: Shepard) but they are still expected to be heterosexual.  

I figure it's obvious that I see things differently, and believe that things were kept the same not because the writers were being lazy, but because they wanted everyone to have the same options and play the same game regardless of Hawke's gender and the gender of the companion you're interested in.   All of the romances feel about as believable to me as any video game romance can.  

And as for Anders' comments about Karl being left out if you're playing a female Hawke, that I can't say I agree with and I think they should have been taken as a canon fact all across the board. 

[22nd MadJack]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Yes, because that would limit choices. I'm gayer than a three-dollar bill, and I'd still complain if all the romances were homosexual.

Personally I wouldn't place player choice above character design.  To me,  sexuality is an integral part of a character and a player having power over it lessens that character in my eyes.  He becomes shaped by our desire rather than by his or her own experiences.