645 réponses à ce sujet

[ademska]

Harid wrote...
If he were considered a Bisexual when female Hawke romances him, as far as I know he never brings it up.

When you have characters like Isabela, Leliana, and Zevran, who have brought up their past with you, no matter what sex you are when romancing them, I have trouble beleiving, if they wanted Anders to truly be bisexual, they would not have mentioned this romance.  As so far as your knowledge is in the game, this relationship never existed.

just because you have trouble believing it doesn't make it untrue.

and let's once again apply your logic to a situation you bring up. leliana never mentions sleeping with a man, only marjorlaine, so if you romance her as a woman does that make her a lesbian?

anders' conversation about karl is brought up because he flirting with a man, hawke, and is using his past as a reference point to indicate he is interested in men and ask hawke's opinion of it. what logical sense does it make to have him ask this of a woman?

[Harid]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Harid wrote...

To your first point, the topic of the thread, again.  I'd understand that argument if this was a thread about general relationships, but it is not, it's about that Hawkesexual choices we have, and some of us don't like the idea that we can influence character sexuality.  I answered some of you other issues in another post.  I don't think they made these choices for their homesexual and bisexual audience, I think they made these choices for themselves so they didn't have to write out plausible, interesting romances for each sexual orientation, they simply had to chage a few pronouns.  If romances are as big a deal as Bioware seems to want to treat them, I expect better.

They've already said that the primary reason for bisexual love interests is for practical purposes. They did this in order to maximize the possible character-player interactions and romance choices available.  It's likely to remain this way in the future, because they don't have the luxury of that much development time. You may not like it, some folks may think it is unrealistic and immersion-breaking, but them's the breaks. Few enough people actually participate in the romances that it's effectively giving the writers carte blanche with how they wish to do it, as long as they stay within the appropriate guidelines. If you don't like it, there's a whole genre of dating simulations out there to peruse.

And once again, Anders does not talk about being in a relationship with Karl if you romance him as a female.  You influence his orientation, and that is contrived.

Doesn't talk about does not equate to didn't happen. Maybe Anders just doesn't feel comfortable about telling a lady Hawke about Karl. This doesn't necessarily influence his orientation, just what he's comfortable talking about.

I don't even like the romances.  This is principle; I know what path Bioware is going to lead down if they pander to a small subset of their community.  Dating sims are pretty much the natural conclusion.  Honestly at this point I want them gone, but that's not going to happen.

And you are metagaming based on information known to you from the game.  Based on every other bisexual character Bioware has ever written, I have trouble believing Bioware would leave it out of the "straight" relationship if they wanted it regarded going forward.  They had no reason to.

[hoorayforicecream]

Harid wrote...

If he were considered a Bisexual when female Hawke romances him, as far as I know he never brings it up.

When you have characters like Isabela, Leliana, and Zevran, who have brought up their past with you, no matter what sex you are when romancing them, I have trouble beleiving, if they wanted Anders to truly be bisexual, they would not have mentioned this romance.  As so far as your knowledge is in the game, this relationship never existed.

As you guys state, sexual orientation doesn't mean anything in Thedas.  So why keep the past from you in this case?

Because Anders isn't Isabela, Leliana or Zevran? Zevran and Isabela were very vocal about their sexual histories. Leliana would talk about it if the femWarden pressed her about it. Anders only talks about Karl if Dude Hawke presses. Lady Hawke doesn't get that option, just like dudeWarden doesn't get that option.

Edit:

And you are metagaming based on information known to you from the game.  Based on every other bisexual character Bioware has ever written, I have trouble believing Bioware would leave it out of the "straight" relationship if they wanted it regarded going forward.  They had no reason to.

There's plenty of historical characters not telling you everything about their histories up front, nor telling you everything. You're effectively saying "since the other bisexuals did this, I expect it to continue", and that seems awfully shallow when talking about who we are supposed to believe are people.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 22 juin 2011 - 10:25 .

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

As you guys state, sexual orientation doesn't mean anything in Thedas.  So why keep the past from you in this case?

Anders trots out Karl specifically to test the waters with a male Hawke. When you flirt with him, he brings up Karl to ascertain your intentions (HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE GAYS WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE). It's not a straight background infodump.

When female Hawke flirts with him, he obviously has no (immediate) reason to bring up his history with men. That doesn't mean he doesn't potentially tell her about it later.

Modifié par ipgd, 22 juin 2011 - 10:24 .

[mesmerizedish]

Harid wrote...

I don't even like the romances.  This is principle; I know what path Bioware is going to lead down if they pander to a small subset of their community.  Dating sims are pretty much the natural conclusion.  Honestly at this point I want them gone, but that's not going to happen.

So don't do them and don't whine about them.

And you are metagaming based on information known to you from the game.  Based on every other bisexual character Bioware has ever written, I have trouble believing Bioware would leave it out of the "straight" relationship if they wanted it regarded going forward.  They had no reason to.

I'm pretty sure that Sky(?) doesn't mention he's into men if you romance him as a woman. Anders doesn't talk about it with Lady Hawke because there's no in-character reason for him to mention it, and BioWare keeps excellent writers.

[Maugrim]

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

As you guys state, sexual orientation doesn't mean anything in Thedas.  So why keep the past from you in this case?

Anders trots out Karl specifically to test the waters with a male Hawke. When you flirt with him, he brings up Karl to ascertain your intentions (HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE GAYS WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE). It's not a straight background infodump.

When female Hawke flirts with him, he obviously has no reason to bring up his history with men.

It also lets the OMG GAYZ! people know to start using/abusing/murderknife Anders as quickly as possibly, before their manliness/heterosexuality is threatned.  Wouldn't want that Antivan massage situation again....<_<

[whykikyouwhy]

I played a female Hawke and even though I didn't opt to have her romance Anders, as a player, I still got the impression that there was something deeper with his relationship with Karl. Call it a hunch, call it gaydar if you will, or call it subtle cues in tone and dialogue. There was enough there for me to give pause and wonder, and then Hawke and I moved on our merry way.

As for why Anders doesn't address his relationship with Karl if he is in a relationship with F!Hawke...I don't know. I can guess that it has to do with time, or with other dialogue triggers that exist. Or maybe, with a male Hawke, that snippet of Anders' past is referenced to bridge that gap between our player perception of Anders in Awakenings, or to offset the remark Isabela makes about time spent in the Pearl.

But that small difference in the romances between F and M Hawke is not jarring. The lack of that one bit of solid evidence of Anders past is not something that poses some discrepancy with his backstory, because again, its possible to read between the lines with regard to Karl.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 22 juin 2011 - 10:27 .

[mesmerizedish]

makenzieshepard wrote...

It also lets the OMG GAYZ! people know to start using/abusing/murderknife Anders as quickly as possibly, before their manliness/heterosexuality is threatned.  Wouldn't want that Antivan massage situation again....<_<

Anyone else find it amusing that the people who are uncomfortable with Anders hitting on them are also uncomfortable with telling them they're not into him?

[jlb524]

woundedheart wrote...

What I have to say about it: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/7653920/10#7670946

My thoughts.

[Maria Caliban]

Harid wrote...

1) I apologize for painting all homosexuals are part of a monolithic group.

I think your statement was more true than not.

2) Some people feel that their character should not be able to influence the sexuality of others, as we are not playing a JRPG with teenagers, most of our party are adults in a society that doesn't give a damn about sexuality.  As such, there is not reason for them to be in the closet until you came along, because you are so awesome you can influence them.  This is a choice they should have come to on their own, like an adult would.

I can appreciate that viewpoint. If this were a movie or a novel, I might even agree.

But it's a game. There are X amount of love interests and 0 of them are going to be gay. If it's a choice between some straight and some bisexual or all bisexual, I'm going to go with all bi.

Is BioWare pandering to me? Maybe. It's a fantasy game though where I play a badass Champion that people adore. It's meant to be an ego trip in part. No, Hawke isn't Commander Most-Important-Being-In-Universe Shepard, but she still gets a wide number of LI options.

3)  Not really the same thing given they don't make rpg's where you can avoid all conflicts through talking anymore.

And they make RPGs where you can only be a straight, white dude.

I've never killed a person. If I did, I'd be all sorts of traumatized as killing a person is kinda a big deal. But it's not a big deal in Dragon Age.

Likewise, sexual orientation is kinda a big deal in the real world, but doesn't seem to be much of an issue in Thedas. Heck, I had my Warden sleep with Cammon in DA:O. Pretty sure I'd be sobbing in the shower if I tried that in the real world.

I'm simply disagree with the idea that because something matters for me in reality, it ought to matter in a game I play.

[Maugrim]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

It also lets the OMG GAYZ! people know to start using/abusing/murderknife Anders as quickly as possibly, before their manliness/heterosexuality is threatned.  Wouldn't want that Antivan massage situation again....<_<

Anyone else find it amusing that the people who are uncomfortable with Anders hitting on them are also uncomfortable with telling them they're not into him?

Yeah funny how that works isn't it?  Let's just say I knew Congressman Anthony Weiner was a Democrat because he was caught having affairs with women and not men.  The ones who protest so loudly make it kinda obvious....

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 22 juin 2011 - 10:28 .

[ademska]

22nd MadJack wrote...
Personally I wouldn't place player choice above character design.  To me,  sexuality is an integral part of a character and a player having power over it lessens that character in my eyes.  He becomes shaped by our desire rather than by his or her own experiences.

except that, in a universe where you already admitted sexuality isn't a big deal, orientation is NOT an integral part of a character!

people attempting to play nice keep bringing up being "insulted" by portrayals of LGB people in dragon age, but having a universe where it literally does not matter is the endgoal of the entire gay rights movement in the first place.

[Maria Caliban]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Anyone else find it amusing that the people who are uncomfortable with Anders hitting on them are also uncomfortable with telling them they're not into him?

I'm uncomfortable with both. Why is it amusing?

[Maugrim]

Guys could we quit spreading the sexuality does not matter rumor/lie? It just doesn't matter to the degree it does in our world.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 22 juin 2011 - 10:29 .

[Harid]

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

As you guys state, sexual orientation doesn't mean anything in Thedas.  So why keep the past from you in this case?

Anders trots out Karl specifically to test the waters with a male Hawke. When you flirt with him, he brings up Karl to ascertain your intentions (HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE GAYS WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE). It's not a straight background infodump.

When female Hawke flirts with him, he obviously has no (immediate) reason to bring up his history with men. That doesn't mean he doesn't potentially tell her about it later.

Bioware hasn't shown to keep secrets in romances when they are dealing with bisexual characters, I feel if they wanted it to be known going forward, they would have made the point at some time in some conversation with him as femHawke.  And if they wanted to make the point in awakening, you could flirt with him as femWarden could, and you could not.  Nothing has shown either character to be homophobic, and as you guys have clearly stated, sexuality doesn't mean squat in Thedas, so why was it not brought up either of those times?

You guys are treating Bioware writing to be at some other kind of level that it is not, when they are generally clear as day when it comes to these sort of things, and I can't follow you on those points.

And he doesn't tell femhawke about it later.  I feel if they wanted to make him a true bisexual, it would have came up at one point or another, but at this point it just comes across as Hawkesexuality.

But I am repeating myself.  Find some evidence that doesn't come from metagaming or retcon explanation and I can contend this point, till them, we will just be arguing in circles.

Please don't quote the devs explaining their retcons, you insult us both.

[Herr Uhl]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Anyone else find it amusing that the people who are uncomfortable with Anders hitting on them are also uncomfortable with telling them they're not into him?

Because they're nice people but don't like him that way?

[ademska]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Guys could we quit spreading the sexuality does not matter rumor/lie? It just doesn't matter to the degree it does in our world.

it doesn't matter at the cultural level to the degree that lgb people develop a separate identity

that is the crux of the collective argument and what matters here.

[Harid]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Guys could we quit spreading the sexuality does not matter rumor/lie? It just doesn't matter to the degree it does in our world.

I am just repeating it as a point to make, not that I generally agree with it.

Bioware doesn't have the energy or desire to make gender matter in their characters, I have little belief they are going to make anything else matter, heck race hardly mattered in DA:O.

Nothing matters in Bioware games, save the fact that your main character is awesome.  I don't know why people act like they are even the pinnicle of game writing let alone writing in general.

Perhaps at one time, when Planetscape Torment came out, but, you can't ride the coatails of that success over a decade later.

Modifié par Harid, 22 juin 2011 - 10:37 .

[Harid]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Anyone else find it amusing that the people who are uncomfortable with Anders hitting on them are also uncomfortable with telling them they're not into him?

Because they're nice people but don't like him that way?

I had no problem telling him to ****** off because I always rival him, so eh.

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

Bioware hasn't shown to keep secrets in romances when they are dealing with bisexual characters, I feel if they wanted it to be known going forward, they would have made the point at some time in some conversation with him as femHawke.  And if they wanted to make the point in awakening, you could flirt with him as femWarden could, and you could not.  Nothing has shown either character to be homophobic, and as you guys have clearly stated, sexuality doesn't mean squat in Thedas, so why was it not brought up either of those times?

You guys are treating Bioware writing to be at some other kind of level that it is not, when they are generally clear as day when it comes to these sort of things, and I can't follow you on those points.

And he doesn't tell femhawke about it later.  I feel if they wanted to make him a true bisexual, it would have came up at one point or another, but at this point it just comes across as Hawkesexuality.

But I am repeating myself.  Find some evidence that doesn't come from metagaming or retcon explanation and I can contend this point, till them, we will just be arguing in circles.

Please don't quote the devs explaining their retcons, you insult us both.

Is this a "Anders was straight in Awakening" argument or a "Anders is bisexual in DA2" argument? Do I have to explain the definition of retcon again? I should just put it in my ****ing signature.

I do not want to get into the retarded ANDERS COULDN'T BE BISEXUAL HE LIKED WOMEN argument yet again so I am arguing specifically that he is bi/pansexual in DA2. There is evidence that he is definitively interested in men in DA2. Writer comments do peg him as interested in men in DA2. If you want to set arbitrary limits as to what is or is not permissable evidence, then it is your own damn fault that you consider him to have a "changing" sexuality. You do not have to. The door is left open for multiple interpretations for that, including that he is a defined bi/pansexual, leaning very far towards that interpretation, so do not complain about it if you are unwilling to take the out the writers give us for his "Shrodinger's Sexuality" problem.

[ademska]

Harid wrote...

Bioware hasn't shown to keep secrets in romances when they are dealing with bisexual characters, I feel if they wanted it to be known going forward, they would have made the point at some time in some conversation with him as femHawke.  And if they wanted to make the point in awakening, you could flirt with him as femWarden could, and you could not.  Nothing has shown either character to be homophobic, and as you guys have clearly stated, sexuality doesn't mean squat in Thedas, so why was it not brought up either of those times?

You guys are treating Bioware writing to be at some other kind of level that it is not, when they are generally clear as day when it comes to these sort of things, and I can't follow you on those points.

And he doesn't tell femhawke about it later.  I feel if they wanted to make him a true bisexual, it would have came up at one point or another, but at this point it just comes across as Hawkesexuality.

But I am repeating myself.  Find some evidence that doesn't come from metagaming or retcon explanation and I can contend this point, till them, we will just be arguing in circles.

Please don't quote the devs explaining their retcons, you insult us both.

you are placing arbitrary confines on debate. i asked you before if not recruiting isabela negates anders' sexual history that he only expands upon if she is recruited, because that is as much a player choice as picking hawke's gender. i'd appreciate an explanation of how the two are different.

as you said before, sequels happen, character development happens. if all anders is sexually is defined by what you see in awakening, then by that logic none of what happens to him in da2 is real either. it's not a "retcon" to have anders expand on his sexual history, it's development.

[22nd MadJack]

ademska wrote...
except that, in a universe where you already admitted sexuality isn't a big deal, orientation is NOT an integral part of a character!

I disagree.  Sexuality is an integral part of someones character regardless of setting, it defines how you interact with each gender.

ademska wrote...
people attempting to play nice keep bringing up being "insulted" by portrayals of LGB people in dragon age, but having a universe where it literally does not matter is the endgoal of the entire gay rights movement in the first place.

Surely that world should be ours, not Thedas.  I wasn't aware it had a gay rights movement.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 22 juin 2011 - 10:40 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Harid wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

As you guys state, sexual orientation doesn't mean anything in Thedas.  So why keep the past from you in this case?

Anders trots out Karl specifically to test the waters with a male Hawke. When you flirt with him, he brings up Karl to ascertain your intentions (HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE GAYS WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE). It's not a straight background infodump.

When female Hawke flirts with him, he obviously has no (immediate) reason to bring up his history with men. That doesn't mean he doesn't potentially tell her about it later.

Bioware hasn't shown to keep secrets in romances when they are dealing with bisexual characters, I feel if they wanted it to be known going forward, they would have made the point at some time in some conversation with him as femHawke.  And if they wanted to make the point in awakening, you could flirt with him as femWarden could, and you could not.  Nothing has shown either character to be homophobic, and as you guys have clearly stated, sexuality doesn't mean squat in Thedas, so why was it not brought up either of those times?

You guys are treating Bioware writing to be at some other kind of level that it is not, when they are generally clear as day when it comes to these sort of things, and I can't follow you on those points.

And he doesn't tell femhawke about it later.  I feel if they wanted to make him a true bisexual, it would have came up at one point or another, but at this point it just comes across as Hawkesexuality.

But I am repeating myself.  Find some evidence that doesn't come from metagaming or retcon explanation and I can contend this point, till them, we will just be arguing in circles.

Please don't quote the devs explaining their retcons, you insult us both.

The thing is, you don't hear everything about the individual pasts of any of the characters, LI or otherwise. My Hawke(s) romanced Isabela - I don't feel like they got to hear tale of every single one of her lovers, liaisons, or even people she was sweet on but never knew carnally. That doesn't mean that I waltzed through the game thinking that she had only been with the people that she mentioned during our little chats. My Hawke(s) didn't romance Merrill, but I had selected some flirty options and so she appeared in the estate ready to make that move, were Hawke so inclined. I didn't think she was completely innocent or without any knowledge of loves. She has probably had some lovers in the past though she never mentioned any.

So...without it being mentioned in direct dialogue, there are events in the backstories of all of the characters that probably do exist. Maybe I didn't unlock them all, maybe I didn't do something to trigger them, or maybe I'm supposed to look at these characters the way that I do people IRL - we fill in the gaps, though we try not to assume.

I don't think anyone is saying that Bioware is flawless in the writing dept. Most people have some criticisms, but so far as this topic goes, I think they did a fair job of fleshing out the characters. For all we know, there will be more backstory presented in future DLC. All the sordid love affairs may be revealed.

[mesmerizedish]

Harid wrote...

Perhaps at one time, when Planetscape Torment came out, but, you can't ride the coatails of that success over a decade later.

It's not a BioWare game. Nor would I say that gender mattered, considering you can't actually choose your gender.

[Maria Caliban]

Harid wrote...

Nothing matters in Bioware games, save the fact that your main character is awesome.

True.

I don't know why people act like they are even the pinnicle of game writing let alone writing in general.

Because they're better than 90% of the game writing out there.

Whether you think they ought to be Hawkesexual or bisexual or not, Anders, Fenris, Merrill, and Isabela are all excellent characters. Varric, Aveline, and Bethany are also very good.