645 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

Harid wrote...

Bioware hasn't shown to keep secrets in romances when they are dealing with bisexual characters, I feel if they wanted it to be known going forward, they would have made the point at some time in some conversation with him as femHawke.  

There's no standard for writing bisexual characters. I would prefer to take them as a case-by-case basis, since I think of them as characters first, and bisexuals second. Unless you somehow think sexuality overrides character, in which case I would heartily disagree.

Harid wrote...

And he doesn't tell femhawke about it later.  I feel if they wanted to make him a true bisexual, it would have came up at one point or another, but at this point it just comes across as Hawkesexuality.

There's actually implied stuff that happens off screen. A rather obvious one would be a Hawke/Isabela romance... Hawke and Isabela only have sex once on screen. However, there are a good amount of references to them continuing their physical relationship offscreen (Isabela's banter with Sebastian, the Rivaini Fertility talisman, Isabela's line if you rescue her from the kidnappers in Best Served Cold, etc.).

There's plenty of evidence that the companions talk without Hawke necessarily seeing it either - do you really think that Anders only went to visit Varric at the Hanged Man once, or that Isabela and Merrill only played cards that one time?

So why is it so hard to believe that Hawke would talk about stuff off camera?

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 22 juin 2011 - 10:43 .

[Harid]

I am placing arbitrary restraints on debate because we are arguing in circles and it's not going anywhere.

[mesmerizedish]

22nd MadJack wrote...

I disagree.  Sexuality is an integral part of someones character regardless of setting, it defines how you interact with each gender.

It can be an integral part of a character, but it doesn't have to be. Varric might be bisexual. He might not.

And in any case, I'm not sure why it matters how integral it is or isn't. The LIs are all interested in either gender, full stop.

[hoorayforicecream]

Harid wrote...

I am placing arbitrary restraints on debate because we are arguing in circles and it's not going anywhere.

"If you ignore where I am wrong, I am always right."

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

I am placing arbitrary restraints on debate because we are arguing in circles and it's not going anywhere.

Because your argument is indefensible and you need to move the goalposts to stubbornly cling to it at all costs? I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish here.

[Maugrim]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

22nd MadJack wrote...

I disagree.  Sexuality is an integral part of someones character regardless of setting, it defines how you interact with each gender.

It can be an integral part of a character, but it doesn't have to be. Varric might be bisexual. He might not.

And in any case, I'm not sure why it matters how integral it is or isn't. The LIs are all interested in either gender, full stop.

[ademska]

Harid wrote...

I am placing arbitrary restraints on debate because we are arguing in circles and it's not going anywhere.

i'm glad we agree your restraints are arbitrary. you're arguing in circles. i'm making the same point and you're refusing to acknowledge it.

[Harid]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Harid wrote...

Bioware hasn't shown to keep secrets in romances when they are dealing with bisexual characters, I feel if they wanted it to be known going forward, they would have made the point at some time in some conversation with him as femHawke.  

There's no standard for writing bisexual characters. I would prefer to take them as a case-by-case basis, since I think of them as characters first, and bisexuals second. Unless you somehow think sexuality overrides character, in which case I would heartily disagree.

Harid wrote...

And he doesn't tell femhawke about it later.  I feel if they wanted to make him a true bisexual, it would have came up at one point or another, but at this point it just comes across as Hawkesexuality.

There's actually implied stuff that happens off screen. A rather obvious one would be a Hawke/Isabela romance... Hawke and Isabela only have sex once on screen. However, there are a good amount of references to them continuing their physical relationship offscreen (Isabela's banter with Sebastian, the Rivaini Fertility talisman, Isabela's line if you rescue her from the kidnappers in Best Served Cold, etc.).

There's plenty of evidence that the companions talk without Hawke necessarily seeing it either - do you really think that Anders only went to visit Varric at the Hanged Man once, or that Isabela and Merrill only played cards that one time?

So why is it so hard to believe that Hawke would talk about stuff off camera?

1) I do not, I just know that Bioware aren't masters of subtlety as you guys seem to think they are.  They have all of the subtlety of using a sledgehammer to open a door, and acting like they don't is lying to oneself, heck, look at the writing for the mage/templar schism for proof of their inability to have nuance in anything.

2) I don't like to base game lore off of shouldas and couldas.  Because you can frame any argument based on would could happen, and at that point, you are just making stuff up.

I never argued that Anders isn't Hawkesexual in Dragon Age 2, I just don't see the proof that he was any sexuality other than the choice you make for him due to the problems of him being a Hawkesexual.  He is either straight or bisexual based on your choice, and I don't feel like that should be something malleable in a character.

Oh, and as far as the Isabela thing, given how epilogues were rumors, as said by Bioware, as far as we know it could or could not happen, so I'd rather not make arguments based on Epilogue choices.  Being an epilogue choice negates his sexual history because all epilogues are rumors.

Modifié par Harid, 22 juin 2011 - 10:53 .

[Maria Caliban]

Harid wrote...

1) I do not, I just know that Bioware aren't masters of subtlety as you guys seem to think they are.  They have all of the subtlety of using a sledgehammer to open a door, and acting like they don't is lying to oneself, heck, look at the writing for the mage/templar schism for proof of their inability to have nuance in anything.

And I can point to the qunari debacle for evidence of their ability to show nuance. I thought Act 3 was bad, but Act 3 is not the whole of the game.

I understand that debates like these tend to the extreme, but you're painting the writers as little more than chimps with typewriters. Are you saying there was nothing moving, funny, subtle, or evocative at all in the game? Because while I remember some bad writing, I also remember a great deal of good writing.

[ademska]

22nd MadJack wrote...
I
disagree.  Sexuality is an integral part of someones character
regardless of setting, it defines how you interact with each gender.

how does this make bisexuality in da2 a bad thing?

Surely that world should be ours, not Thedas.  I wasn't aware it had a gay rights movement.

what? i'm addressing the people whose argument is "bioware writers shouldn't make every love interest bi because it's insulting to bi people"

when really, having a diverse cast of people portrayed as bisexual is exactly the opposite of insulting

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

I never argued that Anders isn't Hawkesexual in Dragon Age 2, I just don't see the proof that he was any sexuality other than the choice you make for him due to the problems of him being a Hawkesexual.  He is either straight or bisexual based on your choice, and I don't feel like that should be something malleable in a character.

There is proof. If you don't want to accept writer comments that explicitly state his interest in men as proof, then you are invested in your own interpretations for the sake of it and your problems with it are your own doing. If you don't want to see him as having an undefined sexuality, he is the easiest character not to.

I would much rather all characters have defined sexualities as well, but their sexualities do not change unless you want them to. At no point do any of these "subjective" characters out and say "I am not interested in [sex Hawke is not]" when you are romancing them. Their sexualities are undefined. They are defined by your interpretation, not by your sex choice. And "all bi" is a legitimate interpretation.

[mesmerizedish]

Harid wrote...

I never argued that Anders isn't Hawkesexual in Dragon Age 2, I just don't see the proof that he was any sexuality other than the choice you make for him due to the problems of him being a Hawkesexual.  He is either straight or bisexual based on your choice, and I don't feel like that should be something malleable in a character.

It's not malleable. He has slept with both men and women. This is a fact. He's not Hawkesexual. He's bisexual at least, and likely pansexual.

[ademska]

Harid wrote...
Oh, and as far as the Isabela thing, given how epilogues were rumors, as said by Bioware, as far as we know it could or could not happen, so I'd rather not make arguments based on Epilogue choices.  Being an epilogue choice negates his sexual history because all epilogues are rumors.

...what?

no, i'm not bloody referring to the anders epilogue. i'm referring to the explicit party conversation isabela can have with anders where they both realize they've met at the pearl. if isabela is not recruited, which is just as much of a player choice as hawke's gender, does that mean anders never went to the pearl?

because according to your admittedly arbitrary argument confines, it should.

i'm going to say it one more time, for good measure, just because i'm right:

anders had sex with karl thekla.

nothing you say is going to change this established fact.

[whykikyouwhy]

Harid wrote...

1) I do not, I just know that Bioware aren't masters of subtlety as you guys seem to think they are.  They have all of the subtlety of using a sledgehammer to open a door, and acting like they don't is lying to oneself, heck, look at the writing for the mage/templar schism for proof of their inability to have nuance in anything.

2) I don't like to base game lore off of shouldas and couldas.  Because you can frame any argument based on would could happen, and at that point, you are just making stuff up.

I never argued that Anders isn't Hawkesexual in Dragon Age 2, I just don't see the proof that he was any sexuality other than the choice you make for him due to the problems of him being a Hawkesexual.  He is either straight or bisexual based on your choice, and I don't feel like that should be something malleable in a character.

Oh, and as far as the Isabela thing, given how epilogues were rumors, as said by Bioware, as far as we know it could or could not happen, so I'd rather not make arguments based on Epilogue choices.  Being an epilogue choice negates his sexual history because all epilogues are rumors.

I didn't see anyone here claim that Bioware is comprised of masters of subtlely. Maybe I missed that. If so, I apologize. But writing is a subjective topic. Some people may enjoy the story arcs in Bioware games, some people may think they need improvement. Some people may feel a combination of those two perspectives. Lots of folks claim that Faulkner is a master, but I personally don't care for his work.

So when you play, you don't fill in any blanks? You don't think "now, I bet Anders/Merrill/Varric, etc would do or think x, y or z?" If not, we play differently. I went through several quests in the game and made certain decisions that made me wonder how the characters in my active party would react. And my concern on that reaction came from putting together a mental picture of them based on dialogue and banter, and based on a few things I filled in for myself. Not quite meta-gaming, but more just trying to get a well-rounded image of someone. There's only so much that can be addressed in game lore or a codex. At some point, the player and the PC needs to act based on what is learned and what is role-played.

[masterthief]

22nd MadJack wrote...
I am right wing because I wish multiple sexualities to be fairly represented?  This ... boggles the mind.

If your goal here is to have multiple sexualities fairly represented, but you find an all bisexual party in one game to be an example of unfair representation, look at the bigger picture.   The majority of video games, especially popular games, have characters who are all heterosexual because being heterosexual is considered to be "default".   If a character is interpreted as anything but heterosexual regardless of whether or not they pursue anyone in the game romantically, it's met with vitriol by a solid amount of fans because even if you don't know all the details, you're expected to assume heterosexuality.  Dragon Age II is one game with one all bi party.  This isn't a common occurence by any means, and when it does happen it's necessary to have multiple threads discussing the subject and how unrealistic it is (not to mention that whole Straight Male Gamer debacle).    Outside of a few people who are typically dismissed addressing the fact that most games with romance options pander to exclusively heterosexuals the subject is rarely brought up, and when it is it's not discussed with such detail.    The all-bisexual party is being singled out as "unfair" and "unrealistic" and "not fairly representing all sexualities" when y'know, most games don't fairly represent all sexualities.  They just happen to be all heterosexual parties, and "straight by default, no exceptions" doesn't bring out the same reaction.

Modifié par masterthief, 22 juin 2011 - 11:02 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Harid wrote...

Oh, and as far as the Isabela thing, given how epilogues were rumors, as said by Bioware, as far as we know it could or could not happen, so I'd rather not make arguments based on Epilogue choices.  Being an epilogue choice negates his sexual history because all epilogues are rumors.

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

If you are talking about the Isabela/Hawke romance, each example I gave happened in game and on camera, and not during an epilogue.

[Maria Caliban]

If we're going to talk about the appropriateness of Hawkesexual or bisexual characters, we might want to focus on Merrill and Fenris, as those are the two most people read as 'really straight.'

[ademska]

masterthief wrote...
If your goal here is to have multiple sexualities fairly represented, but you find an all bisexual party in one game to be an example of unfair representation, look at the bigger picture.   The majority of video games, especially popular games, have characters who are all heterosexual because being heterosexual is considered to be "default".   If a character is interpreted as anything but heterosexual regardless of whether or not they pursue anyone in the game romantically, it's met with vitriol by a solid amount of fans because even if you don't know all the details, you're expected to assume heterosexuality.  Dragon Age II is one game with one all bi party.  This isn't a common occurence by any means, and when it does happen it's necessary to have multiple threads discussing the subject and how unrealistic it is (not to mention that whole Straight Male Gamer debacle).    Outside of a few people who are typically dismissed addressing the fact that most games with romance options pander to exclusively heterosexuals the subject is rarely brought up, and when it is it's not discussed with such detail.    The all-bisexual party is being singled out as "unfair" and "unrealistic" and "not fairly representing all sexualities" when y'know, most games don't fairly represent all sexualities.  They just happen to be all heterosexual parties, and "straight by default, no exceptions" doesn't bring out the same reaction.

not even all bi! only the four romancable people of eight total!

which is why the fact that this debate exists at all blows my mind.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If we're going to talk about the appropriateness of Hawkesexual or bisexual characters, we might want to focus on Merrill and Fenris, as those are the two most people read as 'really straight.'

Which, I think, is just a matter of "straight until proven otherwise," which is a viewpoint I'm really not a fan of.

[Maria Caliban]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

You are wrong, clearly. The only way for Anders to prove his bisexuality is by standing on the highest point in Kirkwall and sing "I kissed a boy and I liked it".

That's an interesting statement. I've read I Kissed a Girl as a song about a straight woman's experience with a titillating other. It doesn't suggest bisexuality to me at all.

[masterthief]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

ademska wrote...


i'm going to say it one more time, for good measure, just because i'm right:

anders had sex with karl thekla.

nothing you say is going to change this established fact.

You are wrong, clearly. The only way for Anders to prove his bisexuality is by standing on the highest point in Kirkwall and sing "I kissed a boy and I liked it".

He just needs a t-shirt. "I AM ANDERS AND I HAD SEX WITH A MAN."   Problem solved!   Since apparently unless you're making sure to let everyone know at every turn how homosexual or bisexual you are it's unrealistic.

[ipgd]

Maria Caliban wrote...

That's an interesting statement. I've read I Kissed a Girl as a song about a straight woman's experience with a titillating other. It doesn't suggest bisexuality to me at all.

Build a hundred bridges and no one calls you an engineer, but...

[Rest of comment removed as inappropriate for these forums]

I VERY STRONGLY suggest toning your comments down....

~Selene Moonsong

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 23 juin 2011 - 12:19 .

[ademska]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

You are wrong, clearly. The only way for Anders to prove his bisexuality is by standing on the highest point in Kirkwall and sing "I kissed a boy and I liked it".

That's an interesting statement. I've read I Kissed a Girl as a song about a straight woman's experience with a titillating other. It doesn't suggest bisexuality to me at all.

:|