645 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

If we're going to talk about the appropriateness of Hawkesexual or bisexual characters, we might want to focus on Merrill and Fenris, as those are the two most people read as 'really straight.'

Which, I think, is just a matter of "straight until proven otherwise," which is a viewpoint I'm really not a fan of.

I find myself looking at things in a "not really anything unless proven otherwise" manner. Who am I to assume straight or gay? Unless someone tells me about their relationship, I just figure that he/she isn't in one.

[Harid]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Harid wrote...

Oh, and as far as the Isabela thing, given how epilogues were rumors, as said by Bioware, as far as we know it could or could not happen, so I'd rather not make arguments based on Epilogue choices.  Being an epilogue choice negates his sexual history because all epilogues are rumors.

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

If you are talking about the Isabela/Hawke romance, each example I gave happened in game and on camera, and not during an epilogue.

Talking about Anders/Isabela apparently.  I never got this conversation.

I am not going to take something a writer wrote 3 months ago to appease people who were complaining about Anders' apparent sexuality change.  I feel that if they weren't making things up as they went along, they would have let you hit on Anders as the male Warden given they had 2 bisexuals in that game and had no reason to hide his sexual history.

I'm pretty sure it's something that changed with DA2, and not something that was initially implied from the beginning, as such you as Hawke influence his sexuality.  I am only arguing the history itself if you played femHawke.  The reason I won't take what writers say now seriously is because they have to explain the choice they made to make all characters Hawkesexual and because Anders was the only Hawkesexual character we have met before, he requires a better explanation than the other 2 characters would need.

The reason one would contend that making all the characters bi is because prior to you coming along, they don't generally mention a past with other sexualities, i.e. they aren't truly bisexual characters like say Isabela is.  Bisexuality generally doesn't work that way.

And I never stated I don't fill in the blanks, just that me filling in the blanks means jack **** until Bioware confirms it.  I think that Malcolm Hawke for instance was a Mage Seeker given the heavy Andraste imagrey on his Robes and staff, but it doesn't mean anything until Bioware states it to be true or false.  The same applies to any blanks I fill in on anything in game.

Modifié par Harid, 22 juin 2011 - 11:15 .

[masterthief]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

If we're going to talk about the appropriateness of Hawkesexual or bisexual characters, we might want to focus on Merrill and Fenris, as those are the two most people read as 'really straight.'

Which, I think, is just a matter of "straight until proven otherwise," which is a viewpoint I'm really not a fan of.

Yes. There is nothing in the game to indicate either Merrill or Fenris have an exclusive preference for the opposite sex.  Characters are assumed straight because it's the default, and have to prove that they are gay/bi/lesbian "enough".     

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

I'm pretty sure it's something that changed with DA2, and not something that was initially implied from the beginning

What does that have to do with him being bisexual in DA2? It is impossible to argue with someone who repeatedly moves the goalposts to evade arguments instead of actually answering them.

[Harid]

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

I'm pretty sure it's something that changed with DA2, and not something that was initially implied from the beginning

What does that have to do with him being bisexual in DA2? It is impossible to argue with someone who repeatedly moves the goalposts to evade arguments instead of actually answering them.

It's an explanation that I don't take what the writers say now seriously.  I've made that point clear.

[Maria Caliban]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...


That's an interesting statement. I've read I Kissed a Girl as a song about a straight woman's experience with a titillating other. It doesn't suggest bisexuality to me at all.

Oh, I know. It was merely a joke. A bad one, perhaps, I'm good at making those.

It wasn't a bad joke. It was amusing.

[Harid]

masterthief wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

If we're going to talk about the appropriateness of Hawkesexual or bisexual characters, we might want to focus on Merrill and Fenris, as those are the two most people read as 'really straight.'

Which, I think, is just a matter of "straight until proven otherwise," which is a viewpoint I'm really not a fan of.

Yes. There is nothing in the game to indicate either Merrill or Fenris have an exclusive preference for the opposite sex.  Characters are assumed straight because it's the default, and have to prove that they are gay/bi/lesbian "enough".     

That's generally how it works when it comes to romancable characters.  I'm pretty sure you know why.

[ademska]

Harid wrote...
Talking about Anders/Isabela apparently.  I never got this conversation.

and you still don't address the difference between the two arguments.  probably because there isn't one.

writers who write characters know their characters. jennifer hepler probably knows anders' favorite color, but just because she didn't find it prudent to include it in a dialogue doesn't mean it's less valid. if she comments in this post and says, "by the way, it's green", i wonder how much of a fit you'll put up.

edit: except to make this argument truly analogous, anders would have actually told male hawke his favorite color was green.

The reason one would contend that making all the characters bi is because prior to you coming along, they don't generally mention a past with other sexualities, i.e. they aren't truly bisexual characters like say Isabela is.  Bisexuality generally doesn't work that way.

i'm glad to realize that the new arbitrary goalpost you've just set up is every character shouting their sexual histories at the top of their lungs.

And I never stated I don't fill in the blanks, just that me filling in the blanks means jack **** until Bioware confirms it.  I think that Malcolm Hawke for instance was a Mage Seeker given the heavy Andraste imagrey on his Robes and staff, but it doesn't mean anything until Bioware states it to be true or false.  The same applies to any blanks I fill in on anything in game.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

i guess i'm not done saying it then.

Anders had sex with Karl Thekla.

Modifié par ademska, 22 juin 2011 - 11:20 .

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

It's an explanation that I don't take what the writers say now seriously.  I've made that point clear.

Why? Even if it's a "change" it is still relevant to his sexuality in DA2.

[Harid]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

If we're going to talk about the appropriateness of Hawkesexual or bisexual characters, we might want to focus on Merrill and Fenris, as those are the two most people read as 'really straight.'

Which, I think, is just a matter of "straight until proven otherwise," which is a viewpoint I'm really not a fan of.

I find myself looking at things in a "not really anything unless proven otherwise" manner. Who am I to assume straight or gay? Unless someone tells me about their relationship, I just figure that he/she isn't in one.

This is a good philosophy to have in real life.

Not video games that generally pander to the "default." (Straight, white christian male)

[mesmerizedish]

Harid wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

I'm pretty sure it's something that changed with DA2, and not something that was initially implied from the beginning

What does that have to do with him being bisexual in DA2? It is impossible to argue with someone who repeatedly moves the goalposts to evade arguments instead of actually answering them.

It's an explanation that I don't take what the writers say now seriously.  I've made that point clear.

I believe that Anders has black hair. The writers say he's blonde, Varric calls him Blondie, and he's blonde in-game, but I don't take any of that seriously.

[Harid]

ademska wrote...

Anders had sex with Karl Thekla.

I am sure he did.  If you are playing a Male Hawke that's romancing him.

But if you are not, then as far as you know, you have no idea of this being true or not.

Romancable characters in Bioware games DO pretty much shout their sexuality for all to know who are romancing them.

Modifié par Harid, 22 juin 2011 - 11:21 .

[tmp7704]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I believe that Anders has black hair. The writers say he's blonde, Varric calls him Blondie, and he's blonde in-game, but I don't take any of that seriously.

Could be hair dye. I say we'd have to see him without pants to tell for sure.

[ademska]

Harid wrote...

ademska wrote...

Anders had sex with Karl Thekla.

I am sure he did.  If you are playing a Male Hawke that's romancing him.

But if you are not, then as far as you know, you have no idea of this being true or not.

no, as far as hawke knows. i am not hawke. i have access to information hawke does not.  so do you. i just choose to not willfully ignore it.

[ipgd]

tmp7704 wrote...

Could be hair dye. I say we'd have to see him without pants to tell for sure.

Now would be a good time for the "Anders doesn't have a crotch" picture.

Harid wrote...

Not video games that generally pander to the "default." (Straight, white christian male)

Oh my goodness. This is going to hell in a handbasket.

[mesmerizedish]

Harid wrote...

ademska wrote...

Anders had sex with Karl Thekla.

I am sure he did.  If you are playing a Male Hawke that's romancing him.

But if you are not, then as far as you know, you have no idea of this being true or not.

Romancable characters in Bioware games DO pretty much should their sexuality for all to know who are romancing them.

Except you do, because the writers have said it. Oh, wait, you don't take them seriously. It's clear that absoutely nothing will "prove" you wrong, so I'm exiting unless Maria says any more great things.

[Harid]

ademska wrote...

Harid wrote...

ademska wrote...

Anders had sex with Karl Thekla.

I am sure he did.  If you are playing a Male Hawke that's romancing him.

But if you are not, then as far as you know, you have no idea of this being true or not.

no, as far as hawke knows. i am not hawke. i have access to information hawke does not.  so do you. i just choose to not willfully ignore it.

Once again.  Meta-gaming.

I know my sister dies if I bring her to the Ancient Thaig without Anders.  Hawke doesn't know this.  You are basically saying s/he should or does.

My point is why didn't Bioware make it known if you romance him as a female, if they wanted him to be considered a bisexual.  There is no point to exclude this fact.

Modifié par Harid, 22 juin 2011 - 11:25 .

[tmp7704]

ipgd wrote...

Now would be a good time for the "Anders doesn't have a crotch" picture.

That's true. Sneaky Anders, removing the evidence like that

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

Once again.  Meta-gaming.

I know my sister dies if I bring her to the Ancient Thaig without Anders.  Hawke doesn't know this.  You are basically saying s/he should or does.

... No, we're not. We're talking about broad, meta descriptions of a character. Hawke has nothing to do with this conversation whatsoever. This is an inherently meta exercise. Metagame information implies.

[Mr.House]

ipgd wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

That's an interesting statement. I've read I Kissed a Girl as a song about a straight woman's experience with a titillating other. It doesn't suggest bisexuality to me at all.

Build a hundred bridges and no one calls you an engineer, but

[Rest of comment removed as inappropriate for these forums]...

:lol::lol:

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 23 juin 2011 - 12:26 .

[Maria Caliban]

The marketing department certainly thinks Dragon Age is a game for younger straight, white men. I am not convinced the writers and other developers feel the same, and would suggest there's evidence they're interested in a much more varied demographic.

It's no Duke Nukem.

Then again, I get the feeling Duke Nukem hates its target demographic.

[ademska]

Harid wrote...

ademska wrote...

no, as far as hawke knows. i am not hawke. i have access to information hawke does not.  so do you. i just choose to not willfully ignore it.

Once again.  Meta-gaming.

I know my sister dies if I bring her to the Ancient Thaig without Anders.  Hawke doesn't know this.  You are basically saying s/he should or does.

no, what i am saying is that i know bethany will be bitten by darkspawn if brought into the thaig. you also just said that. this is an established part of her character.

so is anders having sex with karl thekla.

moreover, you are failing to draw a distinction between established character history and established character in-game possibility. your argument is not analogous. it is a logical fallacy.

if i had a scanner, i would draw out the diagram. we can do a whole truth table!

Modifié par ademska, 22 juin 2011 - 11:29 .

[Harid]

Around and around we go!

[ademska]

only because you refuse to acknowledge that the sky is blue. i am not going to shut up, because i am correct.

you are not.