645 réponses à ce sujet

[masterthief]

Harid wrote...

masterthief wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

If we're going to talk about the appropriateness of Hawkesexual or bisexual characters, we might want to focus on Merrill and Fenris, as those are the two most people read as 'really straight.'

Which, I think, is just a matter of "straight until proven otherwise," which is a viewpoint I'm really not a fan of.

Yes. There is nothing in the game to indicate either Merrill or Fenris have an exclusive preference for the opposite sex.  Characters are assumed straight because it's the default, and have to prove that they are gay/bi/lesbian "enough".     

That's generally how it works when it comes to romancable characters.  I'm pretty sure you know why.

Because they pander to heterosexuals.  Pander to anyone else and BSN revolts to complain about equal representation and how unfair/unrealistic/inaccurate/weakening the characters/etc it is.  Like, I've never seen anyone say that heterosexuality weakens a character, but I've seen a copious amount of people say homosexuality and bisexuality do.    Anders not disclosing that he was in a relationship with Karl to a female Hawke initially could have to do with the fact that for game purposes, he was interested in her and didn't know how she would feel on the matter right off the bat.   Not everyone who is bisexual discloses it immediately, especially when interested in someone of the opposite sex.   There's no proof that they didn't discuss it afterward.  The game takes place over ten years and Varric only tells the parts he thinks are interesting.  All I'm getting is that he didn't find Anders having a private conversation with a female Hawke about how he's slept with a man interesting or noteworthy enough to tell Cassandra.   That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[whykikyouwhy]

Harid wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

If we're going to talk about the appropriateness of Hawkesexual or bisexual characters, we might want to focus on Merrill and Fenris, as those are the two most people read as 'really straight.'

Which, I think, is just a matter of "straight until proven otherwise," which is a viewpoint I'm really not a fan of.

I find myself looking at things in a "not really anything unless proven otherwise" manner. Who am I to assume straight or gay? Unless someone tells me about their relationship, I just figure that he/she isn't in one.

This is a good philosophy to have in real life.

Not video games that generally pander to the "default." (Straight, white christian male)

I don't know that we want to bring Christianity into this.

That philosophy can and does work in a game though. If I decided to not romance any character, then I wouldn't know if that character even had sex unless its mention in-game (and for some characters, it is), or hinted at. It certainly wouldn't make me think "Oh, Anders is straight" or "Hey, Merrill must be straight." Even with Aveline, who has a husband when Hawke meets her - that doesn't mean she is 'straight'. Wesley could be her spouse for any number of reasons. I could have stepped into the game purely for combat and quest reasons - hang all of that crazy romance stuff! But no. I went for a well-rounded game with well-rounded characters, some of whom are romanceable, and available to whatever Hawke I create and play.

Sure, Bioware could have made direct declarations about each of the characters, but I think they left some ambiguity in order to keep the LI options open and not rigid, and also to allow a bit of RPing. I think had the company written everything in stone, you'd have a different discussion here.

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

Around and around we go!

It is a circular argument because you make it one. If you could pick and argument and defend it instead of inventing new, completely irrelevant ones this would be more coherent.

[jlb524]

Harid wrote...

Not video games that generally pander to the "default." (Straight, white christian male)

So...things that don't pander to these 'default' people need to be explained to death in order to be 'proven'?  Like, everything?

[Harid]

My argument lies in the fact that the devs found it necessary to ignore and obfuscate his sexual history if you choose to have a straight sexual relationship with him.

That is not fault with me, but with the devs.

[tmp7704]

masterthief wrote...

Harid wrote...

masterthief wrote...

Characters are assumed straight because it's the default, and have to prove that they are gay/bi/lesbian "enough".     

That's generally how it works when it comes to romancable characters.  I'm pretty sure you know why.

Because they pander to heterosexuals.

I think that has more to do with probability and simple odds.

[Harid]

masterthief wrote...
 Anders not disclosing that he was in a relationship with Karl to a female Hawke initially could have to do with the fact that for game purposes, he was interested in her and didn't know how she would feel on the matter right off the bat.   Not everyone who is bisexual discloses it immediately, especially when interested in someone of the opposite sex.   There's no proof that they didn't discuss it afterward.

They don't discuss it afterward, and you are filling holes in your mind that are based on nothing.

And I have not yet been in a relationship with a bisexual where it has not been brought up, and while anecdotal, I am pretty sure that is something one would tell their partner over the course of 7 years.

Modifié par Harid, 22 juin 2011 - 11:35 .

[masterthief]

jlb524 wrote...

Harid wrote...

Not video games that generally pander to the "default." (Straight, white christian male)

So...things that don't pander to these 'default' people need to be explained to death in order to be 'proven'?  Like, everything?

Of course.  I guess I can't entirely blame them since they're so used to being pandered to that they see any kind of attempt at compromise or step toward equal representation to be invading and popping their special pander bubble.

[Harid]

masterthief wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Harid wrote...

Not video games that generally pander to the "default." (Straight, white christian male)

So...things that don't pander to these 'default' people need to be explained to death in order to be 'proven'?  Like, everything?

Of course.  I guess I can't entirely blame them since they're so used to being pandered to that they see any kind of attempt at compromise or step toward equal representation to be invading and popping their special pander bubble.

I thought you were better than this.  This wasn't compromise, this was making things easier for them.

But yes, you generally explain these things.

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

They don't discuss it afterward, and you are filling holes in your mind that are based on nothing.

And I have not yet been in a relationship with a bisexual where it has not been brought up, and while anecdotal, I am pretty sure that is something one would tell their partner over the course of 7 years.

I'm pretty sure most people have more than 6 conversations with their partner over the course of 7 years. Why couldn't it have happened in one of those, you know, off-screen conversations?

[Harid]

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

They don't discuss it afterward, and you are filling holes in your mind that are based on nothing.

And I have not yet been in a relationship with a bisexual where it has not been brought up, and while anecdotal, I am pretty sure that is something one would tell their partner over the course of 7 years.

I'm pretty sure most people have more than 6 conversations with their partner over the course of 7 years. Why couldn't it have happened in one of those, you know, off-screen conversations?

It's not reflected in anything shown to you?

Sandal could have told me he was an Old God Baby over the course of those 7 years, but that never happened.  You can't make up things that could have happened when there is no proof that any of these things occured.

[jlb524]

Harid wrote...
But yes, you generally explain these things.

So, they have to explain why the PC could be female?  Non-white?

[Harid]

jlb524 wrote...

Harid wrote...
But yes, you generally explain these things.

So, they have to explain why the PC could be female?  Non-white?

What the hell are you talking about?

Especially when a large percentage of the board argues against a sexual orientation check box.

They are not even remotely the same thing.

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

It's not reflected in anything shown to you?

Sandal could have told me he was an Old God Baby over the course of those 7 years, but that never happened.  You can't make up things that could have happened when there is no proof that any of these things occured.

So Hawke never had any other conversations with his/her LI in the time gaps.

There is proof. The writers have stated he is bisexual.

[masterthief]

tmp7704 wrote...

masterthief wrote...

Harid wrote...

masterthief wrote...

Characters are assumed straight because it's the default, and have to prove that they are gay/bi/lesbian "enough".     

That's generally how it works when it comes to romancable characters.  I'm pretty sure you know why.

Because they pander to heterosexuals.

I think that has more to do with probability and simple odds.

As I said earlier, it's impossible to ascertain an accurate reading of the odds considering the stigma around being anything but heterosexual in current society.    Bioware has made the decision to be more inclusive, and it has brought forth a lot of vitriol from people who are so used to being exclusively pandered to.    The point I'm trying to make is that before anyone says anything about "equal representation" they should look at the bigger picture.   I've been playing video games since I was in the single digits agewise, and up until I played DA it's been all heterosexual romance (when there is a romance) all the time.   But now that the option has been put in place to have the same experience playing a game regardless of the gender of your character and your LI, suddenly pandering is bad and people are complaining about being excluded because there should be equal representation.

What's wrong, guys? 

[Harid]

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

It's not reflected in anything shown to you?

Sandal could have told me he was an Old God Baby over the course of those 7 years, but that never happened.  You can't make up things that could have happened when there is no proof that any of these things occured.

So Hawke never had any other conversations with his/her LI in the time gaps.

There is proof. The writers have stated he is bisexual.

You can't make conjecture on couldas and shouldas.

And like I stated.  I don't trust the writers backpedaling to appease an angry mob of people.

[masterthief]

Harid wrote...

masterthief wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Harid wrote...

Not video games that generally pander to the "default." (Straight, white christian male)

So...things that don't pander to these 'default' people need to be explained to death in order to be 'proven'?  Like, everything?

Of course.  I guess I can't entirely blame them since they're so used to being pandered to that they see any kind of attempt at compromise or step toward equal representation to be invading and popping their special pander bubble.

I thought you were better than this.  This wasn't compromise, this was making things easier for them.

But yes, you generally explain these things.

I'm, uh, touched.  I think.  But like I said earlier, I don't see things on the same vein you do.  You see it as things being easier, I see it as an attempt to be more inclusive.  I can't speak for you or your life experiences so I won't assume, but for me, getting a chance to play a game and actually make the decisions I wanted to make, to have the character on the screen be like me, that was a really cool moment for me.  That could be where my attitude is coming from.

[ipgd]

Harid wrote...

You can't make conjecture on couldas and shouldas.

And like I stated.  I don't trust the writers backpedaling to appease an angry mob of people.

In other words, you want to believe something so you need to invent justifications for discarding any and all evidence that is contrary.

And now I am going to do something more productive than this debacle, like stabbing my eyes out with dildos.

[Harid]

masterthief wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

masterthief wrote...

Harid wrote...

masterthief wrote...

Characters are assumed straight because it's the default, and have to prove that they are gay/bi/lesbian "enough".     

That's generally how it works when it comes to romancable characters.  I'm pretty sure you know why.

Because they pander to heterosexuals.

I think that has more to do with probability and simple odds.

As I said earlier, it's impossible to ascertain an accurate reading of the odds considering the stigma around being anything but heterosexual in current society.    Bioware has made the decision to be more inclusive, and it has brought forth a lot of vitriol from people who are so used to being exclusively pandered to.    The point I'm trying to make is that before anyone says anything about "equal representation" they should look at the bigger picture.   I've been playing video games since I was in the single digits agewise, and up until I played DA it's been all heterosexual romance (when there is a romance) all the time.   But now that the option has been put in place to have the same experience playing a game regardless of the gender of your character and your LI, suddenly pandering is bad and people are complaining about being excluded because there should be equal representation.

What's wrong, guys? 

I argued from the start that they should add more romances of each orientation rather than making everyone Hawkesexual from the very beginning.

I've paid the price for unequal representation in this series, I can't even make a proper black looking character.

I just dont think this is the proper step forward, as it were.  Because they are cutting into proper character development in this current future.

[ademska]

Harid wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

They don't discuss it afterward, and you are filling holes in your mind that are based on nothing.

And I have not yet been in a relationship with a bisexual where it has not been brought up, and while anecdotal, I am pretty sure that is something one would tell their partner over the course of 7 years.

I'm pretty sure most people have more than 6 conversations with their partner over the course of 7 years. Why couldn't it have happened in one of those, you know, off-screen conversations?

It's not reflected in anything shown to you?

Sandal could have told me he was an Old God Baby over the course of those 7 years, but that never happened.  You can't make up things that could have happened when there is no proof that any of these things occured.

you know, except for the fact that anders is bisexual, and this is a fact, and thus he might have told female hawke. it's no conjuring out of thin air if it's established fact -- even, according to your interpretations, only in male canon.

WHICH OKAY FINE LET'S LOOK AT IT THIS WAY:

if you romance anders as a man and pick the diplo choices, he doesn't tell you about his relationship with karl either.

does this mean it didn't happen?

[Sutekh]

Harid wrote...

It's not reflected in anything shown to you?

Sandal could have told me he was an Old God Baby over the course of those 7 years, but that never happened.  You can't make up things that could have happened when there is no proof that any of these things occured.

And we never see anyone eating or performing any bodily function either. Does that mean they're robots? Don't you think that some things are left for you to fill in?

You can argue that those things are so obvious they don't need to be shown, but since according to your own words, it is obvious that someone in a long-term relationship would talk to their s.o. about their bisexuality*, we can safely conclude it did happen.

* I don't agree, btw. But another topic entirely.

[Harid]

ademska wrote...

Harid wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Harid wrote...

They don't discuss it afterward, and you are filling holes in your mind that are based on nothing.

And I have not yet been in a relationship with a bisexual where it has not been brought up, and while anecdotal, I am pretty sure that is something one would tell their partner over the course of 7 years.

I'm pretty sure most people have more than 6 conversations with their partner over the course of 7 years. Why couldn't it have happened in one of those, you know, off-screen conversations?

It's not reflected in anything shown to you?

Sandal could have told me he was an Old God Baby over the course of those 7 years, but that never happened.  You can't make up things that could have happened when there is no proof that any of these things occured.

you know, except for the fact that anders is bisexual, and this is a fact, and thus he might have told female hawke. it's no conjuring out of thin air if it's established fact -- even, according to your interpretations, only in male canon.

WHICH OKAY FINE LET'S LOOK AT IT THIS WAY:

if you romance anders as a man and pick the diplo choices, he doesn't tell you about his relationship with karl either.

does this mean it didn't happen?

No, it would not happen in that case, but he'd still be a bisexual, so what would it matter.

The devs are the ones who stated that when you make a character Hawkesexual, they are apparently not bisexual, but whatever orientation you made them in the game, in one of the prior argument threads on this issue in the past.  Anders is a special case due to his past.  I don't care if he's bi or pansexual in DA2, as so far that when you play femHawke, I don't know if the relationship with Karl happened or not, and based on his past in DA:A, there was no reason for him not to be hit on or hit on MaleWarden, if the devs wanted him to be bisexual from the get go.  There has never been a bisexual written in a Bioware game that has allowed one sex to hit on them, but not the other.  So excuse me if I consider it backpedalling when the devs didn't have a clear idea where to take this character, heck, his death or expulsion from the Wardens is clear proof of this.

But I'll agree to disagree, because like I stated this is going nowhere.

And I have chores to do.

Modifié par Harid, 22 juin 2011 - 11:56 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Harid wrote...

I argued from the start that they should add more romances of each orientation rather than making everyone Hawkesexual from the very beginning.

I've paid the price for unequal representation in this series, I can't even make a proper black looking character.

I just dont think this is the proper step forward, as it were.  Because they are cutting into proper character development in this current future.

More romances of each orientation is a fine concept, except that it leaves players with the "how come I can't romance X" issue. If in DA2, Isabela was only female character available as a LI for F!Hawke, that would exclude F!Hawke players from being able to romance Merrill. Many wouldd cry foul at this. The compromise, for lack of a better word, was to have the romancable characters available to Hawke no matter what gender you play. It may not be perfect, but it allows for player inclusion.

Bioware may not have created the perfect game for everyone - certainly all creeds, religions, ethnicities and orientations were not, and maybe could not be, part of the package. But they have made steps in the right direction, and sure, there is room for improvement. It's not pandering. It's making a game open to all players.