645 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

masterthief wrote...

I think that has more to do with probability and simple odds.

As I said earlier, it's impossible to ascertain an accurate reading of the odds considering the stigma around being anything but heterosexual in current society.

But that's largely irrelevant when we make our guesses and presumptions based on the odds as we know it and believe to be accurate. As long as the common idea is that some orientation makes majority by a large margin, it's only natural (and makes sense) to presume a person is part of that majority unless there's reasons to believe otherwise.

Modifié par tmp7704, 22 juin 2011 - 11:56 .

[Harid]

tmp7704 wrote...

masterthief wrote...

I think that has more to do with probability and simple odds.

As I said earlier, it's impossible to ascertain an accurate reading of the odds considering the stigma around being anything but heterosexual in current society.

But that's largely irrelevant when we make our guesses and presumptions based on the odds as we know it and believe to be accurate. As long as the common idea is that some orientation makes majority by a large margin, it's only natural (and makes sense) to presume a person is part of that majority unless there's reasons to believe otherwise.

That only applies to the US, in the western world, and the Homosexual rate still seems to be roughly 10-15% in other western countries.

It's really not all that impossible.

I agree with the rest of what you said, though.

[ademska]

Harid wrote...

ademska wrote...
if you romance anders as a man and pick the diplo choices, he doesn't tell you about his relationship with karl either.

does this mean it didn't happen?

No, it would not happen in that case, but he'd still be a bisexual, so what would it matter.

in what universe is this a rational opinion

so if i play a game where i don't do the feynriel quest, he doesn't exist. good one.

in any case, bye!

Modifié par ademska, 22 juin 2011 - 11:59 .

[Harid]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Harid wrote...

I argued from the start that they should add more romances of each orientation rather than making everyone Hawkesexual from the very beginning.

I've paid the price for unequal representation in this series, I can't even make a proper black looking character.

I just dont think this is the proper step forward, as it were.  Because they are cutting into proper character development in this current future.

More romances of each orientation is a fine concept, except that it leaves players with the "how come I can't romance X" issue. If in DA2, Isabela was only female character available as a LI for F!Hawke, that would exclude F!Hawke players from being able to romance Merrill. Many wouldd cry foul at this. The compromise, for lack of a better word, was to have the romancable characters available to Hawke no matter what gender you play. It may not be perfect, but it allows for player inclusion.

Just like real life, you can't always get what you want?   Do you get mad when the bag person at Stop And Shop ignores your advances or do you chalk it up to life?

Is it that wierd to want a game to reflect that same part of life?

Modifié par Harid, 23 juin 2011 - 12:02 .

[Harid]

ademska wrote...

Harid wrote...

ademska wrote...
if you romance anders as a man and pick the diplo choices, he doesn't tell you about his relationship with karl either.

does this mean it didn't happen?

No, it would not happen in that case, but he'd still be a bisexual, so what would it matter.

in what universe is this a rational opinion

so if i play a game where i don't do the feynriel quest, he doesn't exist. good one.

in any case, bye!

Pretty much, like Sebastian doesn't exist if you don't get the dlc.

Well, he did before but I believe that was a bug.

Ok, last one.

[ademska]

Harid wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

More romances of each orientation is a fine concept, except that it leaves players with the "how come I can't romance X" issue. If in DA2, Isabela was only female character available as a LI for F!Hawke, that would exclude F!Hawke players from being able to romance Merrill. Many wouldd cry foul at this. The compromise, for lack of a better word, was to have the romancable characters available to Hawke no matter what gender you play. It may not be perfect, but it allows for player inclusion.

Just like real life, you can't always get what you want?   Do you get mad when the bag girl at Stop And Shop ignores your advances or do you chalk it up to life?

Is it that wierd to want a game to reflect that same part of life?

and it that weird to want to play a game (you know, fiction, and generally wish-fulfillment) where you can romance any of the options?

i am playing games. clearly i don't want to interact with the real world when i am playing these games.

i thought you were leaving

[masterthief]

Harid wrote...

masterthief wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

masterthief wrote...

Harid wrote...

masterthief wrote...

Characters are assumed straight because it's the default, and have to prove that they are gay/bi/lesbian "enough".     

That's generally how it works when it comes to romancable characters.  I'm pretty sure you know why.

Because they pander to heterosexuals.

I think that has more to do with probability and simple odds.

As I said earlier, it's impossible to ascertain an accurate reading of the odds considering the stigma around being anything but heterosexual in current society.    Bioware has made the decision to be more inclusive, and it has brought forth a lot of vitriol from people who are so used to being exclusively pandered to.    The point I'm trying to make is that before anyone says anything about "equal representation" they should look at the bigger picture.   I've been playing video games since I was in the single digits agewise, and up until I played DA it's been all heterosexual romance (when there is a romance) all the time.   But now that the option has been put in place to have the same experience playing a game regardless of the gender of your character and your LI, suddenly pandering is bad and people are complaining about being excluded because there should be equal representation.

What's wrong, guys? 

I argued from the start that they should add more romances of each orientation rather than making everyone Hawkesexual from the very beginning.

I've paid the price for unequal representation in this series, I can't even make a proper black looking character.

I just dont think this is the proper step forward, as it were.  Because they are cutting into proper character development in this current future.

Right.   So then don't assume I meant what I said at you--there are plenty of people on the board who are quite upset over the fact that they think they aren't being represented fairly in Dragon Age II because they're heterosexual.    I've seen it before I actually decided to register here with my EA account, and it was a lot of the reason I initially didnt because I had a relatively solid hunch I would totally lose my temper if someone started telling me a sad story about how they are a straight male gamer and no one loves them.    The fact that all romances in the Bioware games I've played kind of feel like dating sims to me because everyone is interested in you isn't something I'm personally a fan of.     Honestly, I'd love to see a "love interest" who you can't win over because they just aren't interested. 

And that's a perfectly valid point as well as problem.  It's like it didn't even occur to Bioware that perhaps not everyone wanted to make a white character.   That is something that by all means should be addressed, and not something I'm happy with either by any means.  Games in general, including Bioware games, have a long way to go when it comes to racial equality.  (This also goes back to  that OT comment I made about the ridiculous people who say things like "gay is the new black" somehow implying that racism is no longer a problem and ignoring the rampant racism inside the community and the fact that the majority of the LGBT movement is composed of middle to upper class white people who excuse their own racism because they're a minority in a different way. )

There's a long way to go on all fronts when it comes to equal representation in games, and I'm definitely not trying to say that the way things are right now is awesome.  I'm just frustrated because people in general here who are taking an issue with the all-bi party in DA2 are vehemently defiant about it being unrealistic or not having enough heterosexual people for a "balance".    If there was an even playing field to begin with then I would be able to see the point easier, but since there's not it looks to me like bisexuality is what's being singled out rather than the plethora of games that are exclusively heterosexual where everyone's interested.  

[ademska]

Harid wrote...
Pretty much, like Sebastian doesn't exist if you don't get the dlc.

Well, he did before but I believe that was a bug.

Ok, last one.

oh okay so the rest of thedas doesn't exist either. only what hawke explicitly observes.

that's a very epistemological outlook.  and also, a stupid one.

byeeeee

Modifié par ademska, 23 juin 2011 - 12:03 .

[masterthief]

tmp7704 wrote...

masterthief wrote...

I think that has more to do with probability and simple odds.

As I said earlier, it's impossible to ascertain an accurate reading of the odds considering the stigma around being anything but heterosexual in current society.

But that's largely irrelevant when we make our guesses and presumptions based on the odds as we know it and believe to be accurate. As long as the common idea is that some orientation makes majority by a large margin, it's only natural (and makes sense) to presume a person is part of that majority unless there's reasons to believe otherwise.

Which brings up the question: What does someone have to do to prove they are not a member of the aforementioned majority?  If someone isn't heterosexual, why is it mandated that they need to disclose it immediately to everyone they meet in order for it to be "valid" and "realistic"?    Some people choose to disclose immediately, others would prefer to do so on a need to know basis.  That doesn't make them any more straight.  

[whykikyouwhy]

Harid wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Harid wrote...

I argued from the start that they should add more romances of each orientation rather than making everyone Hawkesexual from the very beginning.

I've paid the price for unequal representation in this series, I can't even make a proper black looking character.

I just dont think this is the proper step forward, as it were.  Because they are cutting into proper character development in this current future.

More romances of each orientation is a fine concept, except that it leaves players with the "how come I can't romance X" issue. If in DA2, Isabela was only female character available as a LI for F!Hawke, that would exclude F!Hawke players from being able to romance Merrill. Many wouldd cry foul at this. The compromise, for lack of a better word, was to have the romancable characters available to Hawke no matter what gender you play. It may not be perfect, but it allows for player inclusion.

Just like real life, you can't always get what you want?   Do you get mad when the bag girl at Stop And Shop ignores your advances or do you chalk it up to life?

Is it that wierd to want a game to reflect that same part of life?

I would chalk it up to life, if said bag girl politely declined my offer for dinner.

But...this is a game. Let's just say that there are only two available player characters - one a male warrior and one a female mage. Well, I would like to play a warrior, but I would also like to play a female character. In that scenario, I can't have both. Sure, I could just play the male warrior and be able to lob off heads with a greatsword and have fun, but, as a woman, I like being able to play a woman. Call it whatever you will, but its my character for the length of the game and I want to be immersed in the gameplay. Maybe I'll write a letter to the game company and ask, rather humbly, if they might consider making their next game one with more PC options. A female warrior, and a male mage maybe. Maybe they'll hear my request, and the requests of others, and make that option available for me on the next go.

This is what Bioware did, to my understanding. They gave the players options, options that they thought would be the most inclusive possible without spending years in development, working with countless dialogue wheels, voiice actors, scenes, etc. It may not be the perfect game, but its an improvement from what was (as in non-BW games that had only static PCs).

As for the availability of said options not reflecting real life...maybe they could have included some rejections in there. Maybe that will be part of DAIII. The thing is, you can romance who you want, but that part is your choice. You could choose to not romance anyone, or have Hawke engage in a heterosexual or a homosexual romance. If you don't care for the options, don't take them. The romance is really only one aspect of a much larger game, and the options (that you may not take) shouldn't distract you from the rest of the story.

[tmp7704]

masterthief wrote...

Which brings up the question: What does someone have to do to prove they are not a member of the aforementioned majority?  If someone isn't heterosexual, why is it mandated that they need to disclose it immediately to everyone they meet in order for it to be "valid" and "realistic"?    Some people choose to disclose immediately, others would prefer to do so on a need to know basis.  That doesn't make them any more straight.  

I agree there's no real need to disclose this kind of information immediately, certainly it's not something that everyone does. At the same time though, a person who chooses to keep such information to themselves can be reasonably presumed to be a member of the majority until that info is revealed, or there's other signs which could invalidate that presumption.

[Sutekh]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Harid wrote...



Just like real life, you can't always get what you want?   Do you get mad when the bag girl at Stop And Shop ignores your advances or do you chalk it up to life?

Is it that wierd to want a game to reflect that same part of life?

I wanted Aveline and Varric. None of them wants me in return. The only people the the entire game who would consider me are the four LI's.

True. Strange how people forget that when they mourn the lack of realistic rejection. I only pursued Aveline, so I wouldn't know about Varric, but it was rejection loud and clear, even if done in a very gentle fashion.

Hey, I felt mortified on my Hawke's behalf when it happened 

[Demx]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Harid wrote...



Just like real life, you can't always get what you want?   Do you get mad when the bag girl at Stop And Shop ignores your advances or do you chalk it up to life?

Is it that wierd to want a game to reflect that same part of life?

I wanted Aveline and Varric. None of them wants me in return. The only people the the entire game who would consider me are the four LI's.

If it makes you feel better, your cousin hears a rumor about you sleeping with Aveline.

[-leadintea-]

Didn't read through all of it, but I'm personally not a fan of it. I can see why people would enjoy it as it offers more options to them, but for me, that system felt very shallow.

[hoorayforicecream]

Sutekh wrote...

True. Strange how people forget that when they mourn the lack of realistic rejection. I only pursued Aveline, so I wouldn't know about Varric, but it was rejection loud and clear, even if done in a very gentle fashion.

Hey, I felt mortified on my Hawke's behalf when it happened 

Varric also rejects Hawke very gently. Bianca stands in everyone's way.

[ademska]

Thunderbringer wrote...

Didn't read through all of it, but I'm personally not a fan of it. I can see why people would enjoy it as it offers more options to them, but for me, that system felt very shallow.

oh, it seems i'm still here.

bully for you, you're entitled to your opinion. just don't ask them to take away that freedom of choice and we're all golden.

[axl99]

Huh. I was always under the impression that, fictional characters or no, people are attracted to each other because of who they are as individuals, not necessarily what gender they are. Writers and poets can go on all day until the cows come home about one's appearance and mannerisms, but the meat and potatoes of any developing relationship they depict is almost always about interactions between people.

Personally I think it's already a lot of work to put content for romances based on friendships and rivalries for BOTH genders.

Origins had an even mix of heterosexual and bisexual romances, but even then the fans made mods to circumvent what's already there. People are gonna roleplay however they please, and Bioware tried to accommodate.

Perhaps bisexuality in the Dragon Age world just means despite how judgmental its denizens can be about politics and religion, love is love to them no matter the form.

[-leadintea-]

ademska wrote...

Thunderbringer wrote...

Didn't read through all of it, but I'm personally not a fan of it. I can see why people would enjoy it as it offers more options to them, but for me, that system felt very shallow.

oh, it seems i'm still here.

bully for you, you're entitled to your opinion. just don't ask them to take away that freedom of choice and we're all golden.

Although I'd rather prefer they go back to DAO's style of romance, if Bioware really feels that this is the correct way for them to execute romances for this series then they should continue to do so by all means.

[Deathwurm]

I'm coming up on the end of Act 2 of my 1st playthrough, so I haven't seen everything yet...
But nothing I've seen really seems forced on us in any way...it's more a matter of choice.
I know a lot of folks have mentioned how much they disliked being hit on by Anders and the fact that rejecting him gained you Rivalry points, but I really didn't see all that big a problem with it. I will say that I do wish my Male Hawke would have had an option to let him down a little easier...the response made was a bit harsh.

One thing I'm noticing more is that in the world the francise has created, there is a lot more "gender neutrality" than in real life. There aren't any characters expressing wonder at "how good a Warrior she is for a woman" or "how sensitive a Healer he is for a man" and I think that story-convention helps set up a World where same sex relationships would not be seen as anything unusual.

[nightscrawl]

Harid wrote...

Just like real life, you can't always get what you want?   Do you get mad when the bag person at Stop And Shop ignores your advances or do you chalk it up to life?

Is it that wierd to want a game to reflect that same part of life?

But this isn't real life. This is a fantasy RPG.

If you're talking about realism, it's silly to think that 4 bisexual people, or even 2 homosexual people end up in the perfect circumstance and clustered around each other and the main character. The odds aren't in their favor. So, right there the game is not realistic. There is no real mention of orientation stigma, also not realistic. If you consider The Calling as an example, elves in particular have even more reason to encourage heterosexual unions, in addition to discouraging miscegenation.

And for those who crow about realism while also asking for a check box in character creation, how is that realistic in any way? Do you go around with a sign that proclaims your orientation to the world? No. You learn about other people, and they learn about you, through conversation, just like in DA2.

I think referring to them as "all Bi" isn't entirely correct, since, other than Isabella and Sebastian, their orientation is dependent on Hawke's gender. There is no sexual identity outside of that. And no, I don't care what Anders says in DAA. It's not the same Anders, and he doesn't factor into this discussion, since it's about DA2.

Personally, as a straight girl if I think Fenris and Anders are hot and play as a self-portraying female Hawke, and I have a male gay friend who also thinks Fenris and Anders are hot and play as a self-portraying male Hawke, we should both be able to romance them. It adds more variety for everyone, regardless of orientation.

The only negative that I see is that they felt the need to add the extra dialogue about Anders and Karl for a male Hawke. I think it deviates from their pattern of orientation the other romance characters have and somehow singles out Anders in particular as being special enough to merit extra writing.

I'm quite curious to know how many of the "yeah let's go back to the restrictive romances from DAO" have played as the opposite gender specifically to romance a person they wouldn't be able to otherwise. If so, how did you feel about it?

Deathwurm wrote...

I know a lot of folks have mentioned
how much they disliked being hit on by Anders and the fact that
rejecting him gained you Rivalry points, but I really didn't see all
that big a problem with it. I will say that I do wish my Male Hawke
would have had an option to let him down a little easier...the response
made was a bit harsh.

One thing I'm noticing more is that in the
world the francise has created, there is a lot more "gender neutrality"
than in real life. There aren't any characters expressing wonder at "how
good a Warrior she is for a woman" or "how sensitive a Healer he is for
a man" and I think that story-convention helps set up a World where
same sex relationships would not be seen as anything unusual.

RE Anders: there is a specific path of dialogue that you can take that won't net you any rivalry and no flirtation. I don't remember what it is right at the moment, but I have used that a few times in my "let's make everybody max Friendship" plays (which is easily doable). I did play as a male once and rejected him. I think I had to reload and pick the humorous option to avoid it, it was so bad...

Did you ever play DAO? Playing as a dwarf female or human female noble especially you see more sexism, it's quite interesting (I never played an elf, so I wouldn't know there). They toned it down considerably for DA2. In fact, there was a lengthy thread on this very subject about a month ago.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 23 juin 2011 - 09:59 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Well said.

nightscrawl wrote...

The only negative that I see is that they felt the need to add the extra dialogue about Anders and Karl for a male Hawke. I think it deviates from their pattern of orientation the other romance characters have and somehow singles out Anders in particular as being special enough to merit extra writing.

Giving that some more thought this morning, maybe this was due to the fact that Anders was a known character (arguably, so is Isabela, but her scene in DA:O is brief, whereas Anders had a whole DLC to endear himself). In order to make him a bit more well-rounded and to go beyond what we may have already known about him, some extra backstory was injected, especially since there were no romance options in DA:A.

Some folks a few pages back posed some good takes as to why M!Hawke has that dialogue but F!Hawke doesn't (and did so far more eloquently than I could now). While having those dialogue differences may not have been the best decision, I think it makes some sense to have some deviation between the Hawke-genders, depending on the situation and/or topic. Say, if Hawke were talking about underwear or something, we might see a difference in what article is mentioned. (Not my best analogy...) So with regard to past lovers, it makes a bit more sense for Anders to mention Karl to M!Hawke, even if only to pull the player away from any preconceived notions about Anders in DA:A. It puts Anders in the moment, so to speak.

[Deathwurm]

@nightscrawl: I've played DAO twice...1st as a Male Dwarf Duster Fighter & as a Female Elf Mage the 2nd so I didn't get to see either of the character types you mentioned...I'll eventually go back and play through at least some of the other Origins and probably the whole game again at least once, so I'll have to check those out.