645 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

jlb524 wrote...
Plus, opening them up does allow for more roleplaying freedom with your character.  I see the romances (and friendships) as an extra means to define your PCs personal story.  If you want to believe that Alistair falls in love with your Warden in spite of being a blood mage and have a good explanation for it...that's all good to me.

But that for me, weakens the companion's character and still makes it look like he'll fall in love with the glorious PC regardless of what she does.

I get your point, and it's certainly more cost effective. But I prefer otherwise and I know it's not that feasible, at least atm.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I know it's not sadly, which is why I said I don't really care atm, though Bioware's philosophy on a lot of thigns are starting to lose my interest. I am tired of companions lining up for the PC to pick and choose at his / her leisure. 

But are they really lining up? You say this as if the LIs were throwing themselves at the PC, which wasn't really the case for all of them (Anders being the only one that really starts the flirting on his own).

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Becoming a blood mage is not an incidental character creation option. Gender is, but I personally prefer it being shut out for a few LIs, but not on its own.

Blood mage, yes. I just meant, again, stuff like race/gender/base class. Anything you pick outside of the character creator is fine with me.

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

First, thank you for keeping it polite.

Second, this comment:

"in thedas, the kind of cultural oppression/repression that keeps one from fully exploring ideas of sexuality do not exist."

You see, that's where I disagree. I don't think they don't exist. They just haven't been specifically called out in the gameplay. However, how many homosexual couples did you run into in Thedas? Gamlen's comment if your male-Hawke romance's Fenris, "So, you're into elves? Well I guess I won't ask who's the girl." I disagree that there is no oppression/repression in Thedas on terms of sexuality. Thedas seems to revel in oppression/repression on many levels (mage/templar, elf/human, black divine vs. white divine vs Qun).

Pretty sure the writers have made statements to the contrary. Let's see if I can find them!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I know it's not sadly, which is why I said I don't really care atm, though Bioware's philosophy on a lot of thigns are starting to lose my interest. I am tired of companions lining up for the PC to pick and choose at his / her leisure. 

But are they really lining up? You say this as if the LIs were throwing themselves at the PC, which wasn't really the case for all of them (Anders being the only one that really starts the flirting on his own).

All it takes is one sweet word, and they line up. Whether explicitly or implictly, it doesn't matter (in ME2, they were more explicit). They still all feel shallow to me in that regard. And yes, DA:O also had that problem.

You'll say it's my fault for saying sweet words in the first place. Now barring the fact that I usually flirt without meaning anything for the lulz and that I didn't in the game because no one interested me, the fact that I can still makes them feel shallow to me. It is a metagaming view for sure, but it's one I personally can't ignore (unless the game does a really good job at immersing me, which DA2 did not).

[ipgd]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

He also indicated that they did it purposely to leave it open to the player's interpretation.

Also his point. He says in a later post:

I'm simply saying that what I find interesting is how many people assume the sexuality is literally subjective... as in reality itself changes to accomodate the player... when the characters are in fact written to be no different. One always assumes that players live in a very self-centered universe, but it's interesting to see it taken to the extent where some people are upset at the perception of the characters as different people and calling it invalidating even when it's their own doing.

Modifié par ipgd, 24 juin 2011 - 07:13 .

[ademska]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

First, thank you for keeping it polite.

Second, this comment:

"in thedas, the kind of cultural oppression/repression that keeps one from fully exploring ideas of sexuality do not exist."

You see, that's where I disagree. I don't think they don't exist. They just haven't been specifically called out in the gameplay. However, how many homosexual couples did you run into in Thedas? Gamlen's comment if your male-Hawke romance's Fenris, "So, you're into elves? Well I guess I won't ask who's the girl." I disagree that there is no oppression/repression in Thedas on terms of sexuality. Thedas seeme to revel in oppression/repression on many levels (mage/templar, elf/human, black divine vs. white divine vs Qun).

they don't exist in any significant way, at least that we've been presented. from what we can extrapolate from codices and characters:
the chantry has no religious dogma regarding same-sex relationships. the antivan crows use sexuality to lure in targets, targets traditionally of high stature, very frequently same-sex.  the ferelden circle has no qualms about casual same-sex relationships. the hero and champion both potentially have s/s romances with no blowback. in orlais, s/s relationships are treated as a quirk.  yes, there's always going to be a small perception of difference, but nothing strong enough to tie sexual identity to upbringing/personality as analogous to our own world.

if you contend that there is, the burden of proof is on you.

Modifié par ademska, 24 juin 2011 - 07:15 .

[Sutekh]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Gamlen's comment if your male-Hawke romance's Fenris, "So, you're into elves? Well I guess I won't ask who's the girl."

Gamlen gave me the exact same comment, word for word, while my male Hawke was romancing Merrill.

[jlb524]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But that for me, weakens the companion's character and still makes it look like he'll fall in love with the glorious PC regardless of what she does.

Yeah, the same glorious PC that saves the world from certain doom, has the power to crown Dwarven Kings, and can pretty much do whatever they want in any other area of the game. 

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But that for me, weakens the companion's character and still makes it look like he'll fall in love with the glorious PC regardless of what she does.

I get your point, and it's certainly more cost effective. But I prefer otherwise and I know it's not that feasible, at least atm.

and see, i think that is totally and completely fair. if they could do it in a way that wasn't lame, i'd love it.

but since they can't, i'd rather the only single checks not be sexuality. you understand this, but so many other seem not to.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jlb524 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But that for me, weakens the companion's character and still makes it look like he'll fall in love with the glorious PC regardless of what she does.

Yeah, the same glorious PC that saves the world from certain doom, has the power to crown Dwarven Kings, and can pretty much do whatever they want in any other area of the game. 

DA:O may not have shown that very well, but that's believable to me. Being able to influence outside events is quite different than being able to influence people's hearts in such a way as to make them go against everything they believe.

[Sylvianus]

The history of the cost is ridiculous. And this kind of pessimism as well.

This is exactly the same thought as the origins, which also are expensive and would be condemned if everyone, all players would followed, this kind of remark you do.

In DA2, Bioware had abandoned the idea of origins. With feedback, it is not impossible that we'll find this incredible thing again in the future. So no, just no.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 juin 2011 - 07:23 .

[Addai]

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

No, but I don't find a bisexual as attractive a romantic lead in a story.  If they're good characters, it won't matter to the adventure part of the story, but it makes the romance story line less appealing. 

Even if that character will show zero interest in a same sex relationship during your game (since you'd playing as the opposite gender)?

Why would lovers not know this about each other, unless there is purposeful deceit?

See, this is a general problem I felt with DA2.  Let's take Varric, who is the character I can say I liked the most.  I still didn't know jack about Varric at the end of the time, and I didn't feel like Hawke did, either.  So in that sense, her not knowing that her lover is also into guys would fit right in, but it just adds to the idea that Hawke is shallow, unconnected, and all around lame.

At any rate, I as a player still know, so it affects the appeal for me whether or not the characters are in denial/ in deceit/ oblivious.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

ipgd wrote...

Pretty sure the writers have made statements to the contrary. Let's see if I can find them!

Would be nice to hear what they have to say. If you can dig em up that would be cool.

ademska wrote...

if you contend that there is, the burden of proof is on you.

LOL, we're not running for office here people. Just stating opinions. My reading of the codex left me feeling that there wasn't enough information to make a determination one way or the other. I just find it very hard to believe that Thedas with ALL of it's opressive hang ups has absolutley ZERO opinion on the issue.

Sutekh wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Gamlen's comment if your male-Hawke romance's Fenris, "So, you're into elves? Well I guess I won't ask who's the girl."

Gamlen gave me the exact same comment, word for word, while my male Hawke was romancing Merrill.

Now THAT is interesting. I went by there with Merrill on my female Hawke not male one. However, when I go by there with my female Hawke and Fenris he doesn't say the second line, just the first.

Modifié par DaiyoukaiGeisha, 24 juin 2011 - 07:22 .

[jlb524]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DA:O may not have shown that very well, but that's believable to me. Being able to influence outside events is quite different than being able to influence people's hearts in such a way as to make them go against everything they believe.

But to influence events, often times you have to influence people to make it happen...and sometimes even make them go against everything they believe.

[ademska]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
LOL, we're not running for office here people. Just stating opinions. My reading of the codex left me feeling that there wasn't enough information to make a determination one way or the other. I just find it very hard to believe that Thedas with ALL of it's opressive hang ups has absolutley ZERO opinion on the issue.

ha, it's just a method of debate. i gave canon evidence that backed up my perspective, and until we know otherwise, there is nothing that suggests anyone cares on a significant level. why is that hard to grasp? thedas is a fantasy world completely different from our own. there are a parallels, but not in culture or history, and that's where social homophobia et al. originate sooo...

this is a world where there's a lot more to give a **** about than which orlesian noble is diddling which antivan noble, at least as far as gender is concerned.

[jlb524]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

LOL, we're not running for office here people. Just stating opinions. My reading of the codex left me feeling that there wasn't enough information to make a determination one way or the other. I just find it very hard to believe that Thedas with ALL of it's opressive hang ups has absolutley ZERO opinion on the issue.

There is oppression of mages and elves in Thedas.

Given that premise, how can you conclude that there's also oppression of homosexuality?

That's like saying, because homosexuals are oppressed in most areas of our world, blonde people are probably oppressed as well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jlb524 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DA:O may not have shown that very well, but that's believable to me. Being able to influence outside events is quite different than being able to influence people's hearts in such a way as to make them go against everything they believe.

But to influence events, often times you have to influence people to make it happen...and sometimes even make them go against everything they believe.

Which doens't happen in DA:O and which happens very rarely in rl. You don't influence anyone in the game to go against everything they believe, at least in the examples you provided. You influence people yes, but not to the point of being able to make them love everything they hate.

Great individuals existed in our history that were able to influence the course of history, sometimes with effects that are felt thousands of years after. That's believable and realistic. But I highly doubt they were able to make people genuinely love them (as in romantically) when they should hate them. They could make them love power, money and fame but that's not genuine love.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

jlb524 wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

LOL, we're not running for office here people. Just stating opinions. My reading of the codex left me feeling that there wasn't enough information to make a determination one way or the other. I just find it very hard to believe that Thedas with ALL of it's opressive hang ups has absolutley ZERO opinion on the issue.

There is oppression of mages and elves in Thedas.

Given that premise, how can you conclude that there's also oppression of homosexuality?

That's like saying, because homosexuals are oppressed in most areas of our world, blonde people are probably oppressed as well.

There is more than just oppression of elves and mages in Thedas those are just a few examples you can cite in-game. I'm saying there is oppression...period. Oppression is not just limited to anything. Why is the reverse true? Why does oppression exclude sexuality. Sorry, I don't think of Thedas as some kind of un-oppressed sexual Shangri-La. Hey, maybe it IS, but that wasn't my impression.

[jlb524]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Which doens't happen in DA:O and which happens very rarely in rl. ,

It seemed to me the kind of thing happened with Zathrian if you got him to end the curse.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Great individuals existed in our history that were able to influence the course of history, sometimes with effects that are felt thousands of years after. That's believable and realistic. But I highly doubt they were able to make people genuinely love them (as in romantically) when they should hate them. They could make them love power, money and fame but that's not genuine love.

Are we talking about hate though?  I mean, are there any romanceable NPCs that can downright hate the PC and yet you can still romance them in spite of that?

Modifié par jlb524, 24 juin 2011 - 07:34 .

[Pasquale1234]

ademska wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

First, thank you for keeping it polite.

Second, this comment:

"in thedas, the kind of cultural oppression/repression that keeps one from fully exploring ideas of sexuality do not exist."

You see, that's where I disagree. I don't think they don't exist. They just haven't been specifically called out in the gameplay. However, how many homosexual couples did you run into in Thedas? Gamlen's comment if your male-Hawke romance's Fenris, "So, you're into elves? Well I guess I won't ask who's the girl." I disagree that there is no oppression/repression in Thedas on terms of sexuality. Thedas seeme to revel in oppression/repression on many levels (mage/templar, elf/human, black divine vs. white divine vs Qun).

they don't exist in any significant way, at least that we've been presented. from what we can extrapolate from codices and characters:
the chantry has no religious dogma regarding same-sex relationships. the antivan crows use sexuality to lure in targets, targets traditionally of high stature, very frequently same-sex.  the ferelden circle has no qualms about casual same-sex relationships. the hero and champion both potentially have s/s romances with no blowback. in orlais, s/s relationships are treated as a quirk.  yes, there's always going to be a small perception of difference, but nothing strong enough to tie sexual identity to upbringing/personality as analogous to our own world.

if you contend that there is, the burden of proof is on you.

I've already written a couple of posts about this in this thread.

I have seen no indication that Thedas even has any concept of sexual orientation.  The very idea that people are inherently drawn to romances specifically with one sex or the other might not even exist in Thedas.

Every time someone refers to one of these fictional characters with an orientation label, they are putting the concepts and understandings of this world onto those characters.  (and then they complain that it seems unrealistic to them...)

[ademska]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
There is more than just oppression of elves and mages in Thedas those are just a few examples you can cite in-game. I'm saying there is oppression...period. Oppression is not just limited to anything. Why is the reverse true? Why does oppression exclude sexuality. Sorry, I don't think of Thedas as some kind of un-oppressed sexual Shangri-La. Hey, maybe it IS, but that wasn't my impression.

because it does! i provided evidence about just how ignored it is! evidence you didn't bother to address!

[ipgd]

Here we go:

1) How common are non-hetero people in DA:O? Are we talking a somewhat larger, more casual number, ala Ancient Greece? Or a small minority, like in modern times?

The notion exists, though it is uncommon in Ferelden. Tradition demands that men and women marry, for the sake of their families and procreation if nothing else, and beyond that the personal matters one gets up to in one's bedroom are their own affair. Even so, there isn't a culture where such interests are commonly spoken of or where people of non-straight persuasion could find each other -- so it's largely rare.

It would be a bit more prevalent in Orlais, where such practices are considered a quirk of character amongst the aristocracy.

: 2) Is non-hetero behavior generally regarded as odd, or revolting? Do people not care one way or another? Is it accepted? Is there some sort of gay subculture, sort of like how Nobleman could be gay, and nothing was really said about it?

In Ferelden it would be considered odd, but like Mary said the Chantry is far less judgemental of such matters than the Catholic church was in our own history. Even so, the forms must be observed. If such practices occur, they are generally done in secret and considered distasteful when made public (at least, when it comes to those from whom respectability is expected -- married folks and those with families).

So, no, I don't think Hawke or his/her love interests have anything to worry about in the ****** department.

Modifié par ipgd, 24 juin 2011 - 07:37 .

[jlb524]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

There is more than just oppression of elves and mages in Thedas those are just a few examples you can cite in-game. I'm saying there is oppression...period. Oppression is not just limited to anything. Why is the reverse true? Why does oppression exclude sexuality. Sorry, I don't think of Thedas as some kind of un-oppressed sexual Shangri-La. Hey, maybe it IS, but that wasn't my impression.

So are you saying everyone is oppressed for everything?

I'm just trying to understand where your impression is coming from, since there's no indication that homosexuality is oppressed in Thedas and your reasoning seems to boil down to, 'other things are oppressed so why wouldn't that be?'

[Sutekh]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...


LOL, we're not running for office here people. Just stating opinions. My reading of the codex left me feeling that there wasn't enough information to make a determination one way or the other. I just find it very hard to believe that Thedas with ALL of it's opressive hang ups has absolutley ZERO opinion on the issue.

Sutekh wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Gamlen's comment if your male-Hawke romance's Fenris, "So, you're into elves? Well I guess I won't ask who's the girl."

Gamlen gave me the exact same comment, word for word, while my male Hawke was romancing Merrill.

Now THAT is interesting. I went by there with Merrill on my female Hawke not male one. However, when I go by there with my female Hawke and Fenris he doesn't say the second line, just the first.

Well, I was rather , when he said that. Because indeed, Gamlen, you need the girl to be an elf to know who's the "girl"? I think it's more a racist comment? Maybe? Or it's just Gamlen being a douche.

And about that repression thing, proving a negative is always difficult, but think of all the people who, in DAO, could have used a same-sex relationship as an argument against the Warden if Thedas had been s/s repressive. Loghain only could have mentioned this in the Landsmeet, for instance, if it had any value. Even a little one. And we know that Ferelden is not a very "sexual liberated" country (as is lamented by Zevran numerous times).

Each time people talked about the Warden's relationship (Loghain if recruited, Anora, Morrigan, Wynne, Fergus Cousland if you "romance" Dairren as a male Pup....) they didn't seem to make any difference. The only one who did was Oghren, Orzammar-born and raised dwarf.

[FieryDove]

jlb524 wrote...

There is oppression of mages and elves in Thedas.

Given that premise, how can you conclude that there's also oppression of homosexuality?

That's like saying, because homosexuals are oppressed in most areas of our world, blonde people are probably oppressed as well.

I agree with this.
Why is it assumed homosexuality is frowned upon/bad on this world/game universe setting?
That’s like saying horses are extinct on this planet so they must be extinct on all planets.
It makes NO sense.