645 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I have seen no indication that Thedas even has any concept of sexual orientation.  The very idea that people are inherently drawn to romances specifically with one sex or the other might not even exist in Thedas.

Every time someone refers to one of these fictional characters with an orientation label, they are putting the concepts and understandings of this world onto those characters.  (and then they complain that it seems unrealistic to them...)

Considering these concepts are relatively new to us, I agree.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

jlb524 wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

LOL, we're not running for office here people. Just stating opinions. My reading of the codex left me feeling that there wasn't enough information to make a determination one way or the other. I just find it very hard to believe that Thedas with ALL of it's opressive hang ups has absolutley ZERO opinion on the issue.

There is oppression of mages and elves in Thedas.

Given that premise, how can you conclude that there's also oppression of homosexuality?

That's like saying, because homosexuals are oppressed in most areas of our world, blonde people are probably oppressed as well.

There is more than just oppression of elves and mages in Thedas those are just a few examples you can cite in-game. I'm saying there is oppression...period. Oppression is not just limited to anything. Why is the reverse true? Why does oppression exclude sexuality. Sorry, I don't think of Thedas as some kind of un-oppressed sexual Shangri-La. Hey, maybe it IS, but that wasn't my impression.

ademska wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
LOL,
we're not running for office here people. Just stating opinions. My
reading of the codex left me feeling that there wasn't enough
information to make a determination one way or the other. I just find it
very hard to believe that Thedas with ALL of it's opressive hang ups
has absolutley ZERO opinion on the issue.

ha, it's
just a method of debate. i gave canon evidence that backed up my
perspective, and until we know otherwise, there is nothing that suggests
anyone cares on a significant level. why is that hard to grasp? thedas
is a fantasy world completely different from our own. there are a
parallels, but not in culture or history, and that's where social
homophobia et al. originate sooo...

this is a world where there's
a lot more to give a **** about than which orlesian noble is diddling
which antivan noble, at least as far as gender is concerned.

It's not hard to grasp. I'm saying that there is nothing to suggest that they don't care on a significant level either. I just disagree with you. The signifigance of the issue could very well vary from area to area. In Antiva, they might not care at all and the oppression is next to nothing on the issue. In Fereldan it may be big deal, but either way, there is no really proof to say "All of Thedas" doesn't care about sexuality.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jlb524 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Which doens't happen in DA:O and which happens very rarely in rl. ,

It seemed to me the kind of thing happened with Zathrian if you got him to end the curse.

Not really. He is convicned he is wrong (something he probably always felt), and not only by the Warden (in fact it's the Lady that does most of the talking). But no one told him to start loving humans for instance.

Are we talking about hate though?  I mean, are there any romanceable NPCs that can downright hate the PC and yet you can still romance them in spite of that?

Alistair should hate blood magic. In fact he expresses it several times. And yet can still fall in love with a maleficar (oen that can sacrifice elves for a meager +1 cons).
That for me is not believable.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 juin 2011 - 07:46 .

[ipgd]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

It's not hard to grasp. I'm saying that there is nothing to suggest that they don't care on a significant level either. I just disagree with you. The signifigance of the issue could very well vary from area to area. In Antiva, they might not care at all and the oppression is next to nothing on the issue. In Fereldan it may be big deal, but either way, there is no really proof to say "All of Thedas" doesn't care about sexuality.

As I quoted on the other page, Ferelden's view on homosexuality seems to amount to "weird, but wutevs". Gays are the gingers of DAO.

[ademska]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
It's not hard to grasp. I'm saying that there is nothing to suggest that they don't care on a significant level either.

oh you mean except all the stuff i said earlier and david gaider's own statements.

I just disagree with you.

and you'd be wrong.

i provided in-game evidence. david gaider confirmed it. what more do you need?

Modifié par ademska, 24 juin 2011 - 07:46 .

[Sylvianus]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

And I thought the devs had pretty much debunked that idea- that the characters are the way they are, whether you see a given dialogue or not.

Yep, Gaider did so:

http://social.biowar...51322/5#6959410

David Gaider wrote...
I will say that one element of the reaction to this I find interesting is the idea that so many people believe a character's sexuality actually changes because their exposure to it changes.

Anders isn't any different a person in a game with a male PC or a female PC, for instance, yet some people seem to think that because he doesn't mention his relationship with Karl to a female player it must never have happened... and he is therefore 100% straight as opposed to being 100% gay if it is mentioned. While the point of that is indeed to leave it free for the player to interpret for themselves, the part I find interesting is the assumption that the characters' personalities are somehow written differently based on the circumstance. I suspect that says a lot about how some people actually think about sexuality, which is if anything an interesting behavior to observe in the community.

He also indicated that they did it purposely to leave it open to the player's interpretation.

That's exactly what I dislike. The players are playing god and decide who are the characters. Sexuality is part of the definition of a human being. Sorry. We are no longer in the registry to choose its powers, armor, etc..

We touch directly to what should we be inaccessible as a human being in the game. There are rules that govern this world and beyond our control.Also remove the uniqueness, the difference is anything but enriching.

And finally, some players want their characters straight and other gays or bi. Why deny them that right ?  Many don't  let themselves be abused. Interpretation doesn't equal the truth. And we want something definite, because that is how the characters are translated.

This sloppy system affects the perception of the player who doesn't know who they are. Why he doesn't know? Because it is not for him to decide who they are. The characters are and it's like that , as people are in real life and it's like that. Deal with it.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 juin 2011 - 07:49 .

[ipgd]

Sylvianus wrote...

That's exactly what I dislike. The players are playing god and decide who are the characters. Sexuality is part of the definition of a human being. Sorry. We are no longer in the registry to choose its powers, armor, etc..

We touch directly to what should we be inaccessible as a human being in the game. There are rules that govern this world and beyond our control.Also remove the uniqueness, the difference is anything but enriching.

And finally, some players want their characters straight and other gays or bi. Why deny them that right ?  Many don't  let themselves be abused. Interpretation doesn't equal the truth. And we want something definite, because that is how the characters are translated.

This sloppy system affects the perception of the player who doesn't know who they are. Why he doesn't know? Because it is not for him to decide who they are. The characters are and it's like that , as people are in real life and it's like that. Deal with it.

And, again, from Gaider's own post:

I'm simply saying that what I find interesting is how many people assume the sexuality is literally subjective... as in reality itself changes to accomodate the player... when the characters are in fact written to be no different. One always assumes that players live in a very self-centered universe, but it's interesting to see it taken to the extent where some people are upset at the perception of the characters as different people and calling it invalidating even when it's their own doing.

Their character only changes if you interpret it that way. Don't interpret it that way if you don't like that interpretation.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

jlb524 wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

There is more than just oppression of elves and mages in Thedas those are just a few examples you can cite in-game. I'm saying there is oppression...period. Oppression is not just limited to anything. Why is the reverse true? Why does oppression exclude sexuality. Sorry, I don't think of Thedas as some kind of un-oppressed sexual Shangri-La. Hey, maybe it IS, but that wasn't my impression.

So are you saying everyone is oppressed for everything?

I'm just trying to understand where your impression is coming from, since there's no indication that homosexuality is oppressed in Thedas and your reasoning seems to boil down to, 'other things are oppressed so why wouldn't that be?'

- I gave an example before with Gamlen's comment (which when I first heard it made me raise my eyebrow)

Other indications:

- Alistair was raised by the Chantry and he was heterosexual only. Sebastian was incredibly pro-Chantry and he was also heterosexual only. Makes me think the Chantry may say on thing in the Chant but then stress a different code of behavior on thier templars/priests.
- There are no openly gay couples respresented in world around you. None. Even the dang female prostitutes in Lowtown don't even proposition my female-Hawke or Bethany, but they proposition Carver.
- "The Winters" mercenary leader's comment about Seamus and Ashad (sorry forget her name) when you save Seamus. She said it with a rather sneering innuendo which struck me as biased. Granted it could just be the fact that he was with a Qunari, so you can dismiss this one...but then again if sexuality is so open who would care since there is no oppression vis a vis sexuality.

Could I be DEAD wrong? Of course! But hey, this is how it struck me.

ademska wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
It's not hard to grasp. I'm saying that there is nothing to suggest that they don't care on a significant level either.

oh you mean except all the stuff i said earlier and david gaider's own statements.

I just disagree with you.

and you'd be wrong.

i provided in-game evidence. david gaider confirmed it. what more do you need?

Gaider confirmed that's up to the player's interpretation and player's reactions to personality vis a via sexuality. I also gave my own examples and specifically stated that my reading of the codex did not mesh 100% with yours (except the Chantry codicies). 

I don't need anything from you. We disagree. Why can't people be at peace with that?

Modifié par DaiyoukaiGeisha, 24 juin 2011 - 07:55 .

[ademska]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
- I gave an example before with Gamlen's comment (which when I first heard it made me raise my eyebrow)

Other indications:

- Alistair was raised by the Chantry and he was heterosexual only. Sebastian was incredibly pro-Chantry and he was also heterosexual only. Makes me think the Chantry may say on thing in the Chant but then stress a different code of behavior on thier templars/priests.
- There are no openly gay couples respresented in world around you. None. Even the dang female prostitutes in Lowtown don't even proposition my female-Hawke or Bethany, but they proposition Carver.
- "The Winters" mercenary leader's comment about Seamus and Ashad (sorry forget her name) when you save Seamus. She said it with a rather sneering innuendo which struck me as biased. Granted it could just be the fact that he was with a Qunari, so you can dismiss this one...but then again if sexuality is so open who would care since there is no oppression vis a vis sexuality.

Could I be DEAD wrong? Of course! But hey, this is how it struck me.

every single one of those requires either assumption on your part or isn't actually related to same-sex anything.

everything i presented was based in codex or required no assumption. david gaider himself just said and considering it's been quoted about five times now, i have to think you're just being willfully stubborn.

[ipgd]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

- Alistair was raised by the Chantry and he was heterosexual only. Sebastian was incredibly pro-Chantry and he was also heterosexual only. Makes me think the Chantry may say on thing in the Chant but then stress a different code of behavior on thier templars/priests.

The Chantry doesn't care about sexuality. Again, Gaider's post I quote on the other page.

- There are no openly gay couples respresented in world around you. None. Even the dang female prostitutes in Lowtown don't even proposition my female-Hawke or Bethany, but they proposition Carver.

Wade and Herren. Zevran and Taliesin. Leliana and Marjolaine. Julien and Nicolas in The Calling, whom no one (including the king of Ferelden) expresses any sort of prejudice towards.

Modifié par ipgd, 24 juin 2011 - 07:56 .

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

[quote]ademska wrote...

Could I be DEAD wrong? Of course! But hey, this is how it struck me.
[/quote]

every single one of those requires either assumption on your part or isn't actually related to same-sex anything.

everything i presented was based in codex or required no assumption. david gaider himself just said and considering it's been quoted about five times now, i have to think you're just being willfully stubborn.

[/quote]

What part of "Could I be DEAD wrong? Of course!" did you not get? LOL, I think you're getting riled up over nothing. You could be 100% in the right, and I could be 100% wrong. I'm just stating WHY I had the impressions/opinions I had while playing the game in terms of oppression and sexuality in Thedas.

[ademska]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
What part of "Could I be DEAD wrong? Of course!" did you not get? LOL, I think you're getting riled up over nothing. You could be 100% in the right, and I could be 100% wrong. I'm just stating WHY I had the impressions/opinions I had while playing the game in terms of oppression and sexuality in Thedas.

i'm not riled up so much as confused by why, now that you've been presented with far more compelling evidence to the contrary -- in fact, a definitive statement from the head writer -- you won't concede the point. it's not a matter of opinion anymore, it's you disagreeing with objective fact.

[Sylvianus]

ipgd wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

That's exactly what I dislike. The players are playing god and decide who are the characters. Sexuality is part of the definition of a human being. Sorry. We are no longer in the registry to choose its powers, armor, etc..

We touch directly to what should we be inaccessible as a human being in the game. There are rules that govern this world and beyond our control.Also remove the uniqueness, the difference is anything but enriching.

And finally, some players want their characters straight and other gays or bi. Why deny them that right ?  Many don't  let themselves be abused. Interpretation doesn't equal the truth. And we want something definite, because that is how the characters are translated.

This sloppy system affects the perception of the player who doesn't know who they are. Why he doesn't know? Because it is not for him to decide who they are. The characters are and it's like that , as people are in real life and it's like that. Deal with it.

And, again, from Gaider's own post:

I'm simply saying that what I find interesting is how many people assume the sexuality is literally subjective... as in reality itself changes to accomodate the player... when the characters are in fact written to be no different. One always assumes that players live in a very self-centered universe, but it's interesting to see it taken to the extent where some people are upset at the perception of the characters as different people and calling it invalidating even when it's their own doing.

Their character only changes if you interpret it that way. Don't interpret it that way if you don't like that interpretation.

Yes you ask me to play God and choose to each playthrough who is gay or hetero. It's not my role. Sexuality is part of the definition of who they are and I'm not allowed to touch it.

You ask me to pretend that I don't see the hearts. As if I didn't know that each character is exactly the same, and has no clear direction.

[ipgd]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

What part of "Could I be DEAD wrong? Of course!" did you not get? LOL, I think you're getting riled up over nothing. You could be 100% in the right, and I could be 100% wrong. I'm just stating WHY I had the impressions/opinions I had while playing the game in terms of oppression and sexuality in Thedas.

And we are trying to show you the evidence that contradicts your impressions, and are becoming confused when you ignore it.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

ipgd wrote...
Wade and Herren. Zevran and Taliesin. Leliana and Marjolaine. Julien and Nicolas in The Calling, whom no one (including the king of Ferelden) expresses any sort of prejudice towards.

Wade and Herren can be assumed to be together as couple, but in-game that's not explicity said at all. Zevran and Talisen I never got deep into, so you may be on to somethin there. Didn't play Leliana's DLC, did it go into that relationship? From the Origins standpoint, Leliana was definitely in love with Marjolaine but whether or not they were actually together as a couple openly was never really explored. Again, haven't read The Calling. So, I can't comment. I'm only pulling from my experiences in the game, not outside lore (like short stories or the novels).

[jlb524]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

- I gave an example before with Gamlen's comment (which when I first heard it made me raise my eyebrow)

...which only meanst that Gamlen thinks it's odd or funny.  That isn't necessarily a sign of oppression.  Social oppression involves the systematic categorization a group of people so they can be denied the same rights as others, stereotyped, and treated as lessers in general.

People tease others about being left-handed...left-handed people are not socially oppressed (anymore).

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Other indications:

- Alistair was raised by the Chantry and he was heterosexual only. Sebastian was incredibly pro-Chantry and he was also heterosexual only. Makes me think the Chantry may say on thing in the Chant but then stress a different code of behavior on thier templars/priests.
- There are no openly gay couples respresented in world around you. None. Even the dang female prostitutes in Lowtown don't even proposition my female-Hawke or Bethany, but they proposition Carver.
- "The Winters" mercenary leader's comment about Seamus and Ashad (sorry forget her name) when you save Seamus. She said it with a rather sneering innuendo which struck me as biased. Granted it could just be the fact that he was with a Qunari, so you can dismiss this one...but then again if sexuality is so open who would care since there is no oppression vis a vis sexuality.

Could I be DEAD wrong? Of course! But hey, this is how it struck me.

Well, Sebastian came to the Chantry late...he may have had tons of gay sex in his wild youth.  Now he's completely celibate beyond finding himself a wife so he can carry on the line as that's his duty.  He could still be attracted to men for all we know...

Also, Leliana spent time in the Chantry and it didn't turn her straight...

About the openly gay couples...where there a lot of openly straight couples around town? 

[ipgd]

Sylvianus wrote...

Yes you ask me to play God and choose
to each playthrough who is gay or hetero. It's not my role. Sexuality is
part of the definition of who they are and I'm not allowed to touch it.


You ask me to pretend that I don't see the hearts. As if I didn't know
that each character is exactly the same, and has no clear
direction.

No? Assume they're all bisexual, then their sexualities are the same in every playthrough and nothing changes.

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

Wade and Herren can be assumed to be together as couple, but in-game that's not explicity said at all.

They aren't exactly closeted.

Didn't play Leliana's DLC, did it go into that relationship? From the Origins standpoint, Leliana was definitely in love with Marjolaine but whether or not they were actually together as a couple openly was never really explored.

They were.

Again, haven't read The Calling. So, I can't comment. I'm only pulling from my experiences in the game, not outside lore (like short stories or the novels).

In The Calling, a couple of dudes make out in front of everybody and no one cares. As it is written by Gaider, I think it can be safely considered an authority on the matter of "how much people from Ferelden/Orlais care when two dudes make out".

Modifié par ipgd, 24 juin 2011 - 08:12 .

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

ipgd wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

What part of "Could I be DEAD wrong? Of course!" did you not get? LOL, I think you're getting riled up over nothing. You could be 100% in the right, and I could be 100% wrong. I'm just stating WHY I had the impressions/opinions I had while playing the game in terms of oppression and sexuality in Thedas.

And we are trying to show you the evidence that contradicts your impressions, and are becoming confused when you ignore it.

And I said I didn't ignore it. I responded to every post and every bit of evidence. I gave my impression, was asked "what gave you that impression?", and answered accordingly. Now it feels like I'm being attacked for having an impression even if it was erroneous.

Look, I'll make everyone happy. I'm wrong, you're right. 

About the openly gay couples...where there a lot of openly straight couples around town? 

- Lady Elegant though the husband is absent
- Leandra and Malcolm though he's quite dead
- Anora and Eamon
- Meredith and Orsino  (LOL, I kid)

And as a addition to a prior post. Leandra saying "well I need to find you a suitable husband". Er, why do I need a husband? Why can't I have a wife?

[ademska]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Wade and Herren can be assumed to be together as couple,

david gaider confirmed it.

Zevran and Talisen I never got deep into, so you may be on to somethin there

david gaider confirmed it.

Didn't play Leliana's DLC, did it go into that relationship?

david gaider confirmed it.

Again, haven't read The Calling.

david gaider wrote it.

Modifié par ademska, 24 juin 2011 - 08:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
- Anora and Eamon

Um...what?

[ademska]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
And as a addition to a prior post. Leandra saying "well I need to find you a suitable husband". Er, why do I need a husband? Why can't I have a wife?

because david gaider said (and we could already infer) that marriages are held for financial purposes and purposes of procreation. my male hawke gets it on with anders, leandra probably still wants him to continue the line.

i'm just gonna keep saying 'david gaider' and hope it sticks.

[ipgd]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

And as a addition to a prior post. Leandra saying "well I need to find you a suitable husband". Er, why do I need a husband? Why can't I have a wife?

No gay marriage. Marriage is primarily a political/financial/babies thing in Thedas.

Modifié par ipgd, 24 juin 2011 - 08:16 .

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

[quote]ipgd wrote...


Wade and Herren can be assumed to be together as couple, but in-game that's not explicity said at all.[/quote]They aren't exactly closeted.

[/quote]

I don't make an assumption that when two men together are automatically a couple. They could just work together and be great friends while having their own lover/husband at home. Just not enough evidence here other than to make an assumption on this one.

[quote]ipgd wrote...

[quote]Again, haven't read The Calling. So, I can't comment. I'm only pulling from my experiences in the game, not outside lore (like short stories or the novels).[/quote]In The Calling, a couple of dudes make out in front of everybody and no one cares. As it is written by Gaider, I think it can be safely considered an authority on the matter of "how much people from Ferelden/Orlais care when two dudes make out".

[/quote]

Good to know. I'm guessing this scene was in Orlais??

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
- Anora and Eamon

Um...what?

Oops, my bad. Meant Isolde. LOL

Edit: Damn that brought up a funny image.

Modifié par DaiyoukaiGeisha, 24 juin 2011 - 08:17 .

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

ademska wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Wade and Herren can be assumed to be together as couple,

david gaider confirmed it.

Zevran and Talisen I never got deep into, so you may be on to somethin there

david gaider confirmed it.

Didn't play Leliana's DLC, did it go into that relationship?

david gaider confirmed it.

Again, haven't read The Calling.

david gaider wrote it.

Again, I'll say....my impressions were formed IN GAME. I didn't play the game then run to forums to get Gaider's take on it. If he confirmed all that, great, but I didn't have a little Gaider mod on my game to have him pop up like "Clippy" and inform me of what's what.