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[The dead fish]

ipgd wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Yes you ask me to play God and choose to each playthrough who is gay or hetero. It's not my role. Sexuality is part of the definition of who they are and I'm not allowed to touch it.

You ask me to pretend that I don't see the hearts. As if I didn't know that each character is exactly the same, and has no clear direction.

No? Assume they're all bisexual, then their sexualities are the same in every playthrough and nothing changes.

But it is still an interpretation, nothing definite, not the truth. It's still me who decides if they are all bi or not. It's not my role.
What you called compromise for me is a disaster for immersion in the story. It is subjective, but to each to raise its priorities. Mine are clearly in the realism and story, especially guaranteed integrity of the characters..

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 juin 2011 - 08:25 .

[ipgd]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

I don't make an assumption that when two men together are automatically a couple. They could just work together and be great friends while having their own lover/husband at home. Just not enough evidence here other than to make an assumption on this one.

Wade and Herren are a little... okay, Wade and Herren are gigantic flamers. I'm assuming the people of Thedas have some rudimentary gaydar power.

Good to know. I'm guessing this scene was in Orlais??

Uh, in the Deep Roads. Technically.

[KnightofPhoenix]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Again, I'll say....my impressions were formed IN GAME. I didn't play the game then run to forums to get Gaider's take on it. If he confirmed all that, great, but I didn't have a little Gaider mod on my game to have him pop up like "Clippy" and inform me of what's what.

That would have been so annoying, as I would have required him to pop up every second for him to explain to me wth's happening in his game. 

[ademska]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Again, I'll say....my impressions were formed IN GAME. I didn't play the game then run to forums to get Gaider's take on it. If he confirmed all that, great, but I didn't have a little Gaider mod on my game to have him pop up like "Clippy" and inform me of what's what.

and that's fine. but now you know.

[Sutekh]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

- Lady Elegant though the husband is absent
- Leandra and Malcolm though he's quite dead
- Anora and Eamon
- Meredith and Orsino  (LOL, I kid)

Assuming you meant "Isolde" and not "Anora" they are all married couples. (Yes even Meredith and Orsino ) Ask Oghren what being in an hetero marriage means in regard to sexual orientation

[ipgd]

Sylvianus wrote...

But it is still an interpretation, nothing definite, not the truth.

Same as the interpretation that their sexualities are malleable through your will. I hate the subjective sexuality thing so I consider them all bi, problem solved.

Sutekh wrote...

Assuming you meant "Isolde" and not "Anora" they are all married couples. (Yes even Meredith and Orsino [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]) Ask Oghren what being in an hetero marriage means in regard to sexual orientation

Oh, right, Branka and Hespith, too. And Oghren just seemed to think the "they're both ladies" thing by itself was hot.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Again, I'll say....my impressions were formed IN GAME. I didn't play the game then run to forums to get Gaider's take on it. If he confirmed all that, great, but I didn't have a little Gaider mod on my game to have him pop up like "Clippy" and inform me of what's what.

That would have been so annoying, as I would have required him to pop up every second for him to explain to me wth's happening in his game. 

Admittedly, I would have clicked on him for explanation on Broodmother.

O.o "Gaider? WTH is going on here?"

ipgd wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...

I don't
make an assumption that when two men together are automatically a
couple. They could just work together and be great friends while having
their own lover/husband at home. Just not enough evidence here other
than to make an assumption on this one.

Wade and Herren are a little... okay, Wade and Herren are gigantic flamers. I'm assuming the people of Thedas have some rudimentary gaydar power.

Good to know. I'm guessing this scene was in Orlais??

Uh, in the Deep Roads. Technically.

Flamer flames were high on them, but I just couldn't automatically see Herren with Wade. I think the poor man need a break from Wade at the end of the day.

Deep Roads? O.o Ok, I didn't realize darkspawn infested caverns were a great setting for lovin'.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

ipgd wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

But it is still an interpretation, nothing definite, not the truth.

Same as the interpretation that their sexualities are malleable through your will. I hate the subjective sexuality thing so I consider them all bi, problem solved.

Sutekh wrote...

Assuming you meant "Isolde" and not "Anora" they are all married couples. (Yes even Meredith and Orsino [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]) Ask Oghren what being in an hetero marriage means in regard to sexual orientation

Oh, right, Branka and Hespith, too. And Oghren just seemed to think the "they're both ladies" thing by itself was hot.

LOL, yeah I meant Isolde. Sorry, I hate Anora and Isolde with an equal passion so they morph into one being. Totally forgot about Branka and Hespith. That one had to be pretty open, seeing she was in the Deep Roads with her entire house and very opernly dumped her husband.

[RougeSu11y]

why is this thread still going there is only oh so many times people can say yes,no,maybe,so. please i am going to hate my self but any admin even "woo" lock this thread

[JerHopp]

RougeSu11y wrote...

why is this thread still going there is only oh so many times people can say yes,no,maybe,so. please i am going to hate my self but any admin even "woo" lock this thread

If you don't like this thread, just don't click on the link I would say.

I find it fascinating and read it everytime i go online, just to read both ends of the spectrum.

don't have anyting to contribute other then gimme some more bi or gay love interest:bandit:

[Addai]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
If he confirmed all that, great, but I didn't have a little Gaider mod on my game to have him pop up like "Clippy" and inform me of what's what.

New codex app for DA3!  DO WANT

Re the Thedas sexuality- it appears to be a looser version of the traditional European mentality to me.  Not say, like the Kushiel's Dart series, where it was written into the metaphysics that everyone does everyone and no one cares.  Although it seems I recall from one of Hepler's interviews that she liked Jacqueline Carey, so who knows, maybe they want to push it in that direction. 

Medieval Europe wasn't as draconian as everyone assumes it to be, anyway.  People had their bastards, they had their lovers on the side, etc., and you weren't automatically burned at the stake for it.  And I know people aren't meaning to imply that people only fall in love with/ get married to the opposite sex because they're oppressed. 

Modifié par Addai67, 24 juin 2011 - 08:41 .

[RougeSu11y]

no its not like i care what videogame characters do in there bedrooms but that fact this thread hit 27 pages is more then a little ridiculous its just crazy and its mostly just the same 3-4 responses over and over again.

[xkg]

RougeSu11y wrote...

no its not like i care what videogame characters do in there bedrooms but that fact this thread hit 27 pages is more then a little ridiculous its just crazy and its mostly just the same 3-4 responses over and over again.

If you don't care and this thread doesn't bother you nor offend you then ... have a nice day - there are plenty of other threads you can enjoy.

[DaiyoukaiGeisha]

Addai67 wrote...

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
If he confirmed all that, great, but I didn't have a little Gaider mod on my game to have him pop up like "Clippy" and inform me of what's what.

New codex app for DA3!  DO WANT

Re the Thedas sexuality- it appears to be a looser version of the traditional European mentality to me.  Not say, like the Kushiel's Dart series, where it was written into the metaphysics that everyone does everyone and no one cares.  Although it seems I recall from one of Hepler's interviews that she liked Jacqueline Carey, so who knows, maybe they want to push it in that direction. 

Medieval Europe wasn't as draconian as everyone assumes it to be, anyway.  People had their bastards, they had their lovers on the side, etc., and you weren't automatically burned at the stake for it.  And I know people aren't meaning to imply that people only fall in love with/ get married to the opposite sex because they're oppressed. 

If Gaider would be willing do a voice-over for the app I'd write it. Talking Gaider-Clippy Codex Helper!

Alrighty, being a rabid fan of Carey's books. That bit (in bold) makes a heck of lot more sense to me. I wouldn't call Thedas completely "Love as thou wilt", but it's close.

[Addai]

DaiyoukaiGeisha wrote...
Alrighty, being a rabid fan of Carey's books. That bit (in bold) makes a heck of lot more sense to me. I wouldn't call Thedas completely "Love as thou wilt", but it's close.

That book gave me nightmares. 

[Pasquale1234]

jlb524 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I have seen no indication that Thedas even has any concept of sexual orientation.  The very idea that people are inherently drawn to romances specifically with one sex or the other might not even exist in Thedas.

Every time someone refers to one of these fictional characters with an orientation label, they are putting the concepts and understandings of this world onto those characters.  (and then they complain that it seems unrealistic to them...)

Considering these concepts are relatively new to us, I agree.

Thank you for acknowledging that.  It is immensely appreciated.

It is also my personal interpretation of Gaider's intent - he speaks of it as being a "quirk", e.g., not something that defines a character or personality outside of that particular "quirk".

[tmp7704]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I've already written a couple of posts about this in this thread.

I have seen no indication that Thedas even has any concept of sexual orientation.  The very idea that people are inherently drawn to romances specifically with one sex or the other might not even exist in Thedas.

You can have a talk with Zevran regarding his contacts with men, going as far as to go "eewwww" at that. When Leliana tells you she enjoys the company of other women, you can tell her she's got the wrong idea about your character. The concept may not be explicitly defined in the terms we use nowadays, but at least vague recognition and related expectations appear to exist.

Every time someone refers to one of these fictional characters with an orientation label, they are putting the concepts and understandings of this world onto those characters.

Doesn't strike me as a problem, really. People who were gay in our own world were gay long before the terms and understanding of it was coined. Whether they were aware of it or not.

(there is also the matter of reader's/player's expectations. If you know they'll come "into" your world with their own expectations and presumptions about it, then if you're doing something different it makes sense to let the reader explicitly know in some way that things are different in your realm. Otherwise you risk they'll misinterpret your story somehow, plus this logic of "how do we know if things aren't different in Thedas" can get quickly out of hand -- how do we know it's not the women who impregnate men there e.g., and the resulting children are found in cabbage patch? We actually don't.

So going this route, you can perhaps draw some conclusions from lack of such acknowledgment regarding possible difference in the orientations and concepts of it)

Modifié par tmp7704, 25 juin 2011 - 01:43 .

[whykikyouwhy]

tmp7704 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I've already written a couple of posts about this in this thread.

I have seen no indication that Thedas even has any concept of sexual orientation.  The very idea that people are inherently drawn to romances specifically with one sex or the other might not even exist in Thedas.

You can have a talk with Zevran regarding his contacts with men, going as far as to go "eewwww" at that. When Leliana tells you she enjoys the company of other women, you can tell her she's got the wrong idea about your character. The concept may not be explicitly defined in the terms we use nowadays, but at least vague recognition and related expectations appear to exist.

Every time someone refers to one of these fictional characters with an orientation label, they are putting the concepts and understandings of this world onto those characters.

Doesn't strike me as a problem, really. People who were gay in our own world were gay long before the terms and understanding of it was coined. Whether they were aware of it or not.

(there is also the matter of reader's/player's expectations. If you know they'll come "into" your world with their own expectations and presumptions about it, then if you're doing something different it makes sense to let the reader explicitly know in some way that things are different in your realm. Otherwise you risk they'll misinterpret your story somehow, plus this logic of "how do we know if things aren't different in Thedas" can get quickly out of hand -- how do we know it's not the women who impregnate men there e.g., and the resulting children are found in cabbage patch? We actually don't.

So going this route, you can perhaps draw some conclusions from lack of such acknowledgment regarding possible difference in the orientations and concepts of it)

That's a very valid point, and yet one more area where balance is key, yet so difficult to maintain. We can gather from the human appearance and overall movement and behavior of people in Thedas that they are similar to ourselves. They talk about things that are relatable. And thus far, there are no cabbage patches in the games (um...maybe one in Awakenings though. Wasn't there some farm?).

The tricky bit comes with societal norms and expectations. I don't know that any player can completely remove his/herself from their perspective - their personal biases, beliefs or prejudices. We can to a degree - we immerse ourselves in games and believe that yeah, as Hawke, we can propel ourselves forward with lightning speed and swing a greatsword, or summon balls of fire from the very sky. But on the deeper levels, those having to do with things we hold in our hearts and minds, it's much more difficult. Not impossible. Just a good challenge to role-playing.

But with societies in games or books or movies, I always try and take a step back and assess how things might be. Get the lay of the land, so to speak, and then act accordingly. So while sexual orientation may not be cheese and wine conversation in Thedas, there are clearly some attitudes about partnerings. But those could possibly fall into the same category as relationships across classes or races. Depending on where in Thedas you are from, or how you were raised (Circle vs chantry vs alienage vs forest, etc), you may not give two shakes, or you may be very interested in who is doing what. I just think, based on what we have seen thus far, the good peoples of Thedas are more inclined to worry about Blights or putting food on the table, than who is snogging with who. Unless, of course, that allows for a juicy bit of gossip.

[Pasquale1234]

tmp7704 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I've already written a couple of posts about this in this thread.

I have seen no indication that Thedas even has any concept of sexual orientation.  The very idea that people are inherently drawn to romances specifically with one sex or the other might not even exist in Thedas.

You can have a talk with Zevran regarding his contacts with men, going as far as to go "eewwww" at that. When Leliana tells you she enjoys the company of other women, you can tell her she's got the wrong idea about your character. The concept may not be explicitly defined in the terms we use nowadays, but at least vague recognition and related expectations appear to exist.

Either of those can be just as easily attributed to one's individual personal tastes as one's reaction to the idea of same-sex relationships.  If you find Zevran unappealing, for example, you could go 'eewww' at the thought of him having sex with anyone.  Or with anyone other than you if you are attracted.  Ditto the interaction with Leliana.

I think it's perfectly valid to consider that one's reaction to specific thoughts about specific sexual activities performed by specific characters might not have anything to do with one's feelings about the genders of the people involved in those specific activities.

Every time someone refers to one of these fictional characters with an orientation label, they are putting the concepts and understandings of this world onto those characters.

Doesn't strike me as a problem, really. People who were gay in our own world were gay long before the terms and understanding of it was coined. Whether they were aware of it or not.

The same can be said of straight people.  No concept of sexual orientation means exactly that.  In that context, people are really only aware of attractions to specific individuals, not their sex.  Or their apparent sex - and the possible existence of intersexed people in that world is yet another factor this binary male/female system does not address.  The trinary het/bi/****** orientation scale we use today is inaccurate at best and misleading at worst.  But it seems to be the best we have at this point.

I also want to point out the fact that orientation labels are generally self-selected - and rightfully so.  No other person has the ability to measure and tally one's attractions, affections, or sexual interest in the various other people we encounter throughout our lives.  I don't remember ever hearing any of the residents of Thedas state a sexual orientation.  Isabela tells us that she has enjoyed sex with men and women, but I don't remember her ever saying that she considers herself to be bisexual.  She does say that 'men are good for one thing, women for six' - and for all we know, she might identify herself as a lesbian if she were asked to define her orientation.

(there is also the matter of reader's/player's expectations. If you know they'll come "into" your world with their own expectations and presumptions about it, then if you're doing something different it makes sense to let the reader explicitly know in some way that things are different in your realm. Otherwise you risk they'll misinterpret your story somehow, plus this logic of "how do we know if things aren't different in Thedas" can get quickly out of hand -- how do we know it's not the women who impregnate men there e.g., and the resulting children are found in cabbage patch? We actually don't.

So going this route, you can perhaps draw some conclusions from lack of such acknowledgment regarding possible difference in the orientations and concepts of it)

I've stated quite a few things in previous posts that we know in Thedas to be very different from our own world - the equality of the sexes and apparent lack (or minimization) of gender role-playing is but one of them.  The matriarchal chantry is another.  These things should provide pretty strong clues that Thedas is not like our world (not to mention mages, dragons, etc.).

Yes, it's nice to let people know that things are different in your gameworld - but in this particular case, we have 4 LIs who are open to romance with Hawkes of either sex - and yet we get a lot of complaints about it seeming unrealistic.  The point here being that even when you do show people that things might be different from the world they live in, the reaction is to complain instead of to try to accept and work with these differences.

[tmp7704]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Either of those can be just as easily attributed to one's individual personal tastes as one's reaction to the idea of same-sex relationships. 

Except this still relies on the concept of person being attracted to people of certain sex rather than to individuals regardless of their gender. I.e. the very thing that isn't supposed to exist.

The same can be said of straight people. No concept of sexual orientation means exactly that.  In that context, people are really only aware of attractions to specific individuals, not their sex.

Absolutely. Hence being able to say in such setting "i'm not attracted to women" or "you had sex with men, eeew" goes quite against this, since you're voicing a concept you're supposed to be unaware of.

I've stated quite a few things in previous posts that we know in Thedas to be very different from our own world - the equality of the sexes and apparent lack (or minimization) of gender role-playing is but one of them.  The matriarchal chantry is another.

 That isn't somehow different from our own wold. What you describe varies in Thedas from nation to nation, and in our own world there's been societies which practiced about any combination of gender equality (or lack thereof) and religious organizations that we can think of.

At best we can make a point that individual nations of Thedas viewed on case by case basis may lack identical equivalents in our own world... but that doesn't really mean much, and even that is doubtful.

Modifié par tmp7704, 25 juin 2011 - 05:09 .

[Pasquale1234]

tmp7704 wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Either of those can be just as easily attributed to one's individual personal tastes as one's reaction to the idea of same-sex relationships. 

Except this still relies on the concept of person being attracted to people of certain sex rather than to individuals regardless of their gender. I.e. the very thing that isn't supposed to exist.

I'm not so sure about that as you seem to be.

The same can be said of straight people. No concept of sexual orientation means exactly that.  In that context, people are really only aware of attractions to specific individuals, not their sex.

Absolutely. Hence being able to say in such setting "i'm not attracted to women" or "you had sex with men, eeew" goes quite against this, since you're voicing a concept you're supposed to be unaware of.

If you are referencing a specific conversation, it would be helpful if you could quote it.  It's pretty hard for me to respond otherwise.  I'm not familiar with any convos that include those snippets of dialog.

Even so, an individual might decide (or recognize) that s/he is not attracted to women or finds the thought of someone having sex with men to be distasteful.  It does not necessitate a cultural concept of sexual orientation, only a recognition of a personal "quirk".  I don't like tomatoes and go 'eewww' at liver.

I've stated quite a few things in previous posts that we know in Thedas to be very different from our own world - the equality of the sexes and apparent lack (or minimization) of gender role-playing is but one of them.  The matriarchal chantry is another.

 That isn't somehow different from our own wold. What you describe varies in Thedas from nation to nation, and in our own world there's been societies which practiced about any combination of gender equality (or lack thereof) and religious organizations that we can think of.

At best we can make a point that individual nations of Thedas viewed on case by case basis may lack identical equivalents in our own world... but that doesn't really mean much, and even that is doubtful.

Yes, there certainly have been societies on this planet that have had different foundations, and their cultures have evolved in ways that are very different from the modern western culture in which many of us live.  I thought we were discussing the idea that players coming into a gameworld have certain expectations that it will be like their own culture/world unless it is pointed out to be specifically different.