645 réponses à ce sujet

[Bejos_]

phoenixgoddess27 wrote...

It didn't bother me all that much, but I wish they weren't all bi. While we can't change this in DA2, I hope they don't make everyone bisexual in DA3. I don't like feeling like a piece of meat that all romanceable characters want to tap.

[...]

Another thing, after what happened with Fenris and his massive hate for a certain someone, I would think he'd be cautious of guys simply because he made it sound like that someone did more than just... show him off/have him guard him. Anders... just didn't scream, "I like guys, too." But I haven't went after him,(Despite the game ALMOST forcing you to with all the heart icons, the only real "I'm not interested" being impolite) so don't take my word for it.

[...]

Again, this is just my opinion.

Yeah, I was as perplexed as you with Fenris. I thought, "Guy, you've been hinting at some pretty dark stuff, why are you okay with Hawke?"
But then I considered that women who've been raped aren't all suddenly unattracted to the opposite sex.

[Bejos_]

phoenixgoddess27 wrote...

It didn't bother me all that much, but I wish they weren't all bi. While we can't change this in DA2, I hope they don't make everyone bisexual in DA3. I don't like feeling like a piece of meat that all romanceable characters want to tap.

[...]

Another thing, after what happened with Fenris and his massive hate for a certain someone, I would think he'd be cautious of guys simply because he made it sound like that someone did more than just... show him off/have him guard him. Anders... just didn't scream, "I like guys, too." But I haven't went after him,(Despite the game ALMOST forcing you to with all the heart icons, the only real "I'm not interested" being impolite) so don't take my word for it.

[...]

Again, this is just my opinion.

Yeah, I was as perplexed as you with Fenris. I thought, "Guy, you've been hinting at some pretty dark stuff, why are you okay with Hawke?"
But then I considered that women who've been raped aren't all suddenly unattracted to the opposite sex.

[phoenixgoddess27]

Bejos_ wrote...


Yeah, I was as perplexed as you with Fenris. I thought, "Guy, you've been hinting at some pretty dark stuff, why are you okay with Hawke?"
But then I considered that women who've been raped aren't all suddenly unattracted to the opposite sex.

You have me there.
I do take it back. I believe Fenris said he has no memory of doing the do with someone. Not sure if he meant willingly or unwillingly, though. He's a confusing man.

[Maria Caliban]

woundedheart wrote...

I feel like the bisexuality is ridiculous and contrived. I feel like it takes character away from the companions. Sexual preference is a very personal thing and I feel like having everyone in the game possess the same exact sexual preference just takes away from their individuality.

I cannot recall a book, movie, or RPG where people have claimed that everyone being straight reduced the characters' individuality. It's amazing how one sexual orientation manages to turn a person into a hollow shell and a different one leaves them completely intact.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 juin 2011 - 12:02 .

[Bejos_]

Maria Caliban wrote...

woundedheart wrote...

I feel like the bisexuality is ridiculous and contrived. I feel like it takes character away from the companions. Sexual preference is a very personal thing and I feel like having everyone in the game possess the same exact sexual preference just takes away from their individuality.

I cannot recall a book, movie, or RPG where people have claimed that everyone being straight reduced the characters' individuality. It's amazing how one sexual orientation manages to turn a person into a hollow shell and a different one leaves them completely intact.

Brofist!

[devSin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I cannot recall a book, movie, or RPG where people have claimed that everyone being straight reduced the characters' individuality.

I cannot recall anything, ever, where that was claimed. Maybe Broadway?

Sexuality is a very intimate, personal thing. Unless it's hetero. Then it's just normal.

Modifié par devSin, 17 juin 2011 - 12:06 .

[DragonAddict]

My take about sexuality in DA2 is as follows. This is a game and not reality. If you want the real deal, go outside and meet someone and not the computer screen. In the real world, the vaste majority of people are straight and the minority are bi, gay, lesbian, etc. and that's just the way it is. DA2 should be programmed in the same fashion and not all characters seeming to be gay, lesbian and bi to please the minority. You should be playing DA2 because its a cool game and not to get your rocks off. Does it offend me that there are bi, gay and lesbian characters in DA2, not at all. But I would think having a realistic and balanced approach to romances is in order, and remember, its just a game. Example, my co-workers are either single or married and none of them are gay, lesbian or bi. Same with all my family members, relatives and my wife's family members and relatives, etc., hence the minority. Every character being bi is just un-realistic and silly and too generic.

[Pasquale1234]

DragonAddict wrote...

My take about sexuality in DA2 is as follows. This is a game and not reality. If you want the real deal, go outside and meet someone and not the computer screen. In the real world, the vaste majority of people are straight and the minority are bi, gay, lesbian, etc. and that's just the way it is. DA2 should be programmed in the same fashion and not all characters seeming to be gay, lesbian and bi to please the minority. You should be playing DA2 because its a cool game and not to get your rocks off. Does it offend me that there are bi, gay and lesbian characters in DA2, not at all. But I would think having a realistic and balanced approach to romances is in order, and remember, its just a game. Example, my co-workers are either single or married and none of them are gay, lesbian or bi. Same with all my family members, relatives and my wife's family members and relatives, etc., hence the minority. Every character being bi is just un-realistic and silly and too generic.

Self-contradictory much?

How very comforting it must be to know beyond the shadow of a doubt that everyone in your world is strictly 100% straight - because we all know that gay and bi people never ever marry anyone of the opposite sex.  And because anyone who has ever experienced the slightest stirring of sexual interest in someone of their own sex wears a big bright tattoo to identify themselves as they come leaping out of the closet.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

It is kind of a strange compromise to me to have all romancible characters as bisexual in a game. I understand Bioware is trying to give players romance options, but then it feels kind of predictable if the player starts to expect all these things. l'm not sure where I sit on this issue really. On one hand it's nice to give players options (like races, please bring them back!) and on the other, sexuality is part of personality so it leads to somewhat bizarre situations sometimes for some characters. I know my characters are awesome and all that, but do I really want every NPC in my party, male and female, hitting on them? Err....not really.

[dcinroc]

I feel the same about all the romances, whether bi, gay, straight.

If it is done well and seems consistent with the character, then go for it. When Zevran started hitting on my male elf in DA:O, my first reaction was "What???", not because I was at all offended but because it was a real surprise that added depth to that character. When playing a hetero character, I sometimes wish there was an option to keep the sexy banter with Zevran without actually initiating the romance, cuz it's funny and refreshing.

For the most part, my preference is for low key, let the PC make the first move, regardless of sexual orientation. Obviously certain NPCs may be an exception, like Zevran in DA:O or Isabella in DA2. Regardless of the sexuality of my character (I've covered the gamut), it can be annoying to get hit on by everyone. I don't go through a game thinking about the sexuality of NPCs, just as I don't spend time thinking about the sexuality of co-workers in real life.

One feasible option is to set some kind of "plot flag" early in the game that will unlock optional romances. Say, for example, that if you bed Dairren in the Human Noble Origin story (DA:O), then that opens options for romance with other male characters beyond those written specifically as gay/bi.

There may never be a satisfactory way to please everyone in the romance department. One token gay/bi character can feel restrictrive or even discriminatory. Making everyone polyamorous can come off as cheap and unrealisitc.

I applaud Bioware's attempts at inclusiveness and agree with them that it is not merely being "politically correct."

Modifié par dcinroc, 17 juin 2011 - 08:46 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I find it interesting that one of the main complaints, or rather, areas of discontent, with the LIs is that they are all perceived as all "hitting on" Hawke. You really only see that with two characters - Anders and Isabela. While that may be a large ratio given how many companions you can have by game's end, it doesn't qualify as "everyone."

Granted, there are some comments made by other characters that may hint at something. Fenris makes a remark to F!Hawke about not anticipating coming across such a formidable woman (or some such). After he says that, you get a heart/flirty icon as one of your dialogue response options. While his remark can be seen as flirty, it could be completely innocent as well. Courtly even - his way of complimenting the Fereldan and showing his surprise at having a new ally. Whether or not you, as Hawke, choose to make something else of it and give a wink back is something else entirely.

The funny thing is, IRL people do get hit on, and in most uncomfortable ways sometimes. Not knowing the experience of the menfolk here, I can only speak for myself as a woman. Sometimes you go into a bar or club with a group of friends just for the sake of enjoying the company of said friends, and you wind up having someone approach you, offer you a drink, ask for your number, etc. It happens, and it can be flattering or it can be awkward. Heck, I had the manager at my car repair shop get flirty with me when I went for an oil change (not a euphemism). So it's not as though people making advances is something that is unknown or rare, and it's not a bombardment or constant attack. Maybe in the DA realm, it seems to occur a lot given the amount of gameplay, or the scope of Hawke's world. But again, it's only two companions who go beyond a hint.

"Plot flags" would be cool. Potential LIs rejecting you based on decisions you make in the game would be cool. There are many ways to enhance the social interaction of Hawke and his/her companions. But I think having the scope of available options is fantastic. No one is wearing an "I am bi" button, so it's not until Hawke engages the companions in some wink and nudge banter that you get to know that they might be interested. And I like that Hawke can pretty much express his/her own interest in characters that have depth and are simply fun, regardless of gender.

[whykikyouwhy]

woundedheart wrote...

I haven't noticed any characters come onto me uninvited, but I don't know why it would bother people if they were. You're right when you say that people get hit on in real life all the time, and it's usually not by someone we're interested in. There have been many times where I was hit on by a lesbian and I just sort of brushed it off as a compliment ("lol DAMN even the ladies can't resist me!") but I can sort of understand where people are coming from when they complain about the characters hitting on them. Just because I'm not bothered by it doesn't mean they have to be.

I know that no one is wearing an "I'm bi" button. My original post was refering to the character creation, not the gameplay. I don't know why people keep telling me this.

Ah, that "bi" button comment wasn't really directed at your original post and certainly wasn't intended to be a dig. Sorry if it came across that way.

What I meant (now that I have finished my coffee) is that the sexuality of the characters is really ambiguous at best (aside from the afore mentioned pirate and mage). It's open to interpretation, but mostly it's open to exploration. Hawke chats someone up, they chat back, Hawke selects a flirty option, they respond with a warm smile. Or...Hawke chats someone up, they chat back, Hawke selects anything other than the flirty option, they finish chatting and everyone goes on their merry way to slay some Raiders. I think the openness of the romance options may be more about allowing the player to decide the availability of love with the companions.

I think we want to have character canon established for us - that may be a very human instinct ("he is this", "she is that") but there's that interpretation factor. I just figure the companions are willing to love Hawke regardless of gender or standard (RL) social restrictions. Does that make the companions bi or gay? Maybe. But they aren't declaring themselves as much. They declare themselves simply "in love." Which is really a sweet way to look at it.

[Perles75]

the problem is the always same: both DAO and DA2 have only 4 LIs. With 4 LIs you can explore only few options regarding romance, as DAO showed.
The solution chosen for DA2 was to make each LI straight of gay depending on the sex of Hawke, which indeed gives always 4 choices but that is indeed not too elegant.

The only way to solve this problem "realistically" is to enlarge the number of LIs with preset sexuality. But this needs a minimum of 8 LIs (2 straight women, 2 straight men, 2 lesbians and 2 gays). And I'm not sure you can create 8 interesting characters with 8 interesting romances...
And this not to mention the race!

[whykikyouwhy]

Perles75 wrote...

the problem is the always same: both DAO and DA2 have only 4 LIs. With 4 LIs you can explore only few options regarding romance, as DAO showed.
The solution chosen for DA2 was to make each LI straight of gay depending on the sex of Hawke, which indeed gives always 4 choices but that is indeed not too elegant.

The only way to solve this problem "realistically" is to enlarge the number of LIs with preset sexuality. But this needs a minimum of 8 LIs (2 straight women, 2 straight men, 2 lesbians and 2 gays). And I'm not sure you can create 8 interesting characters with 8 interesting romances...
And this not to mention the race!

This also would present the problem of a player possibly not being able to have a specific character as a love interest. I think I would be quite sad (and perhaps also chagrined) if, say, Isabela was not a romanceable option for F!Hawke. I like Isabela, I like her story arc, I like how her character grows when romanced, hence some sorrow if I were denied that when playing a female character (which is what I typically play, if that option is available). So too, there are some nice dynamics between the PC and LI depending on the genders.

It's simply a difficult area to find balance in for the developers, I would wager.

[whykikyouwhy]

woundedheart wrote...

I can definitely see how this is a problem. It must be difficult as a BioWare dev trying to find a balance between character diversity and player satisfaction.

I don't know...am I the only one that cares more about the personality of characters than whether or not I can bed them? It's very important to me that my characters are unique and have depth. That's one of the biggest reasons why I loved DA:O so much. The characters were just so unique, full of depth, and different from each other.

Like I would interact with the Anders in Awakening than the Anders in DA 2 because even though I couldn't romance the Anders in Awakening, he was just so unique and quirky to me. 

I'd just rather have diversity than the god-like option to bang whoever I pleased. 

Well, being able to romance a character may not be the most important thing in a game, or even a consideration, for some players. And that's fine. A game has many layers - story, interactivity, characters, etc. Romances are one aspect that a lot of folks enjoy though.

I don't think that the possibility of romance with the characters in any way taints the personalities of those characters, or makes them less or contrived (and I realize that isn't what you're saying, so forgive my paraphrasing). Sure, the option to bed them is there. But the option to ignore that possible path is available to the player as well. Nothing is forced. It's simply a nice bonus if you choose to play Hawke as someone seeking and maintaining a relationship. Otherwise, Hawke could just be a hero with a lot of good friends who will stick by him/her and stop by the estate for drinks or conversation, but not stay the night.

I think the diversity is there, but it goes back to balance. Where do the devs decide what stays and what goes. Is it all or nothing? Something has to settle in the middle in order to reach a broader player audience. But with the power in the player's hand (what dialogue option you pick, or even if you start to flirt and then back off), you have a nice mix for your playthrough(s).

[Pasquale1234]

woundedheart wrote...

Perles75 wrote...

the problem is the always same: both DAO and DA2 have only 4 LIs. With 4 LIs you can explore only few options regarding romance, as DAO showed.
The solution chosen for DA2 was to make each LI straight of gay depending on the sex of Hawke, which indeed gives always 4 choices but that is indeed not too elegant.

The only way to solve this problem "realistically" is to enlarge the number of LIs with preset sexuality. But this needs a minimum of 8 LIs (2 straight women, 2 straight men, 2 lesbians and 2 gays). And I'm not sure you can create 8 interesting characters with 8 interesting romances...
And this not to mention the race!

I can definitely see how this is a problem. It must be difficult as a BioWare dev trying to find a balance between character diversity and player satisfaction.

I don't know...am I the only one that cares more about the personality of characters than whether or not I can bed them? It's very important to me that my characters are unique and have depth. That's one of the biggest reasons why I loved DA:O so much. The characters were just so unique, full of depth, and different from each other.

Like I would interact with the Anders in Awakening than the Anders in DA 2 because even though I couldn't romance the Anders in Awakening, he was just so unique and quirky to me. 

I'd just rather have diversity than the god-like option to bang whoever I pleased. 

I'm curious - in what way would you expect the characters to have more depth, more personality, or be more unique if they were defined to have some other sexual orientation?

[Cutlass Jack]

DragonAddict wrote...

My take about sexuality in DA2 is as follows. This is a game and not reality. If you want the real deal, go outside and meet someone and not the computer screen. In the real world, the vaste majority of people are straight and the minority are bi, gay, lesbian, etc. and that's just the way it is. DA2 should be programmed in the same fashion and not all characters seeming to be gay, lesbian and bi to please the minority. You should be playing DA2 because its a cool game and not to get your rocks off. Does it offend me that there are bi, gay and lesbian characters in DA2, not at all. But I would think having a realistic and balanced approach to romances is in order, and remember, its just a game. Example, my co-workers are either single or married and none of them are gay, lesbian or bi. Same with all my family members, relatives and my wife's family members and relatives, etc., hence the minority. Every character being bi is just un-realistic and silly and too generic.

You shot your own arguement in the foot in the second sentence. Its a game and not reality.

Realistic ratios of sexual preferences doesn't matter. If you want realistic portrayal of such, go outside and meet people.

[Cutlass Jack]

woundedheart wrote...

I'm not saying that sexual orientation = more depth/personality/uniqueness. I'm saying that, as a whole, I like for my characters to have depth/personality/uniqueness...and when they all share the same exact sexual orientation, that takes away from their diversity a little.

It's not JUST about sexual orientation. If every single one of my companions had blonde hair and blue eyes, I'd have the same complaints.

Something of a poor arguement. If you did like a companion enough to want to romance them its likely because something about them caught your interest. Their personality, their look, or their actions. Their sexuality is only going to come up because you were interested enough to pursue the option.

But when orientation is forced you have to pick your LI purely based on that orientation or have no LI at all in some cases. Diversity is taken off the table for you. They become defined by it.

Personally I don't feel that all LI's should be available to you on a given playthrough. But I'd rather that personality be the determining factor, not gender. If the character you choose to RP has a personality that really meshes perfectly with a particular LI, then its fully based on their uniqueness. Why not allow it?

[AngryFrozenWater]

woundedheart wrote...

About the romance options...

I have mixed feelings about everyone in DA2 being bisexual.

On one hand, I feel like it's a step forward because now the fans have more romance options. If a lesbian is playing a female character, they're not restricted to the only bisexual female in the entire game (such as Leliana in DA:O.) They have the option of romancing any of the females, which is great if the player happens to dislike Leliana and doesn't want to romance her.

On the other hand, however...

I feel like the bisexuality is ridiculous and contrived. I feel like it takes character away from the companions. Sexual preference is a very personal thing and I feel like having everyone in the game possess the same exact sexual preference just takes away from their individuality.

What do you guys think?

I am in the first camp. And about the second camp: My Hawke only sees what she's interested in. If I come across a LI in who I am not interested in I'll simply avoid it. I wouldn't even mind getting a penalty. It's like in real life. It's often hard to predict who has what sexual orientation and such a situation sometimes caused me to blush or I got an hostile reaction. Facts of life.

[Pasquale1234]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

woundedheart wrote...

I'm not saying that sexual orientation = more depth/personality/uniqueness. I'm saying that, as a whole, I like for my characters to have depth/personality/uniqueness...and when they all share the same exact sexual orientation, that takes away from their diversity a little.

It's not JUST about sexual orientation. If every single one of my companions had blonde hair and blue eyes, I'd have the same complaints.

Something of a poor arguement. If you did like a companion enough to want to romance them its likely because something about them caught your interest. Their personality, their look, or their actions. Their sexuality is only going to come up because you were interested enough to pursue the option.

But when orientation is forced you have to pick your LI purely based on that orientation or have no LI at all in some cases. Diversity is taken off the table for you. They become defined by it.

Personally I don't feel that all LI's should be available to you on a given playthrough. But I'd rather that personality be the determining factor, not gender. If the character you choose to RP has a personality that really meshes perfectly with a particular LI, then its fully based on their uniqueness. Why not allow it?

This.^

I find the idea of rivalmance much more contrived than making all of the companions bi.

Would Fenris -really- be willing to romance a mage?  Could Anders fall for someone who supports templars and sends apostates back to the circle?

But the implementation of the friendship/rivalry scale opens up more choice for the player.  Hawke can disagree with a companion at every turn and even treat them badly and they will still be loyal and willing to engage in romance.