645 réponses à ce sujet

[mesmerizedish]

To echo what Maria said earlier, I really doubt you'd be arguing that having all the LIs be straight took away from their uniqueness.

[Pasquale1234]

woundedheart wrote...

I've said several times that sexual orientation does not determine whether or not a character is unique. I said that it takes away from their uniqueness, which is true. Making all of the characters bisexual is like making all of the characters blonde-haired and blue-eyed. 

The hair and eye color of the companions doesn't determine whether or not they're unique, but it does play a role in their diversity, just as sexual orientation does.

Other than some presumed mental construct, how does it take away from their uniqueness?

It does not even come into play unless Hawke is seeking to romance them.

[Cutlass Jack]

woundedheart wrote...

I've said several times that sexual orientation does not determine whether or not a character is unique. I said that it takes away from their uniqueness, which is true. Making all of the characters bisexual is like making all of the characters blonde-haired and blue-eyed.

The hair and eye color of the companions doesn't determine whether or not they're unique, but it does play a role in their diversity, just as sexual orientation does.

So you've had this exact complaint in games where all your companions are straight then? NWN2? ME2? Do you complain every romancable character in any bioware game ever somehow less diverse because all of them will always fall for your main character purely on the basis of matching orientation?

The blonde-haired blue-eyed comparison is an exaggaration at best. Because you will always see visual diversity in a video game but you wil only see sexual diversity if you actively pursue it.

[happy_daiz]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

So you've had this exact complaint in games where all your companions are straight then? NWN2? ME2? Do you complain every romancable character in any bioware game ever somehow less diverse because all of them will always fall for your main character purely on the basis of matching orientation? 

The blonde-haired blue-eyed comparison is an exaggaration at best. Because you will always see visual diversity in a video game but you wil only see sexual diversity if you actively pursue it.

^This...and

I'm sorry, but I still don't buy this. LIs being bisexual is not a valid comparison to being blonde hair/blue-eyed. Just because you say it is, that doesn't make it true. I still haven't seen a strong argument for how that makes any of the LIs similar. From what I've seen, each companion is completely unique in personality, belief system, taste, how they look, how they interact with others, etc., etc., etc.

Besides, saying "they're all bi" is about is relevant as "they all like cheese". Are we not in the 21st century? How is this even an issue anymore?

[Cutlass Jack]

happy_daiz wrote...

Besides, saying "they're all bi" is about is relevant as "they all like cheese". Are we not in the 21st century? How is this even an issue anymore?

That's a much greater issue in my mind. I'm Lactose intolerant. I will not stand for you Dairyists pushing your agenda on me.

[Pasquale1234]

woundedheart wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Other than some presumed mental construct, how does it take away from their uniqueness?

It does not even come into play unless Hawke is seeking to romance them.

Pasquale, I'm not trying to be rude, but please read the 28498643 posts I made about how I'm talking about the characters themselves. Not how Hawke percieves them.

I'm talking about the fact that BioWare made all of the LIs attracted to both genders. That is ALL.

Except that your entire argument, at least the one you have been making here, is entirely about perception.

Your perception of them being somehow less unique, less diverse, less whatever - because of the metagame perspective that they are all bi.

(I prefer to think of them as pansexual, e.g., attracted to a -person- regardless of their sexual/gender identity and physical equipment, but...)

[happy_daiz]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

Besides, saying "they're all bi" is about is relevant as "they all like cheese". Are we not in the 21st century? How is this even an issue anymore?

That's a much greater issue in my mind. I'm Lactose intolerant. I will not stand for you Dairyists pushing your agenda on me.

That was an actual LOL moment for me; thank you.  

I need some coffee. I sense that i'm coming across a little growly without caffeine.

[Cutlass Jack]

happy_daiz wrote...

That was an actual LOL moment for me; thank you.  

I need some coffee. I sense that i'm coming across a little growly without caffeine.

I was just being a little silly. I sensed no growliness. I was mostly amused.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 17 juin 2011 - 01:41 .

[_Aine_]

woundedheart wrote...

I've said several times that sexual orientation does not determine whether or not a character is unique. I said that it takes away from their uniqueness, which is true. Making all of the characters bisexual is like making all of the characters blonde-haired and blue-eyed.

The hair and eye color of the companions doesn't determine whether or not they're unique, but it does play a role in their diversity, just as sexual orientation does.

Actually, making them ONLY have a single sexual preference is like making them all blonde haired and blue eyed.   ADDING options to the character is like them having ALL hair colours and eye colours depending on the way you want to view them.  

Just had to point that out as one way is restrictive and the other opens up options for playstyle (as it is a game, not RL) to give you more options for your Hawke.  

In one of my playthroughs, Anders was straight. In one he was bi and I just wasn't interested. In another he was only gay.  Yes, the character was built bi-sexual because it provides the most option.  It is done this way because it effectively gives more LI options without having to have double the companions around to provide the same amount of choice.  It is a simplification, certainly, but one that is there to provide more option not limit it.  

And who cares if they really are all bi?    Maybe Hawke and his/her inherent awesomeness just attracted all the statistically relevant bisexuals in Kirkwall.     Kidding.   In college and thereafter, a good percentage (majority) of my friends were mostly bisexual or gay.  It can happen, even in RL, though admittedly it depends on the company you keep.  

My Hawke's simply view them as they *choose* to.  In RL, this doesn't work.    But in games, the rules are different and they don't *have* to fit those of RL.  I'm glad of that, personally.     Otherwise we would have no dragons, magic, instant rebirth after deaths.....     

Modifié par shantisands, 17 juin 2011 - 01:44 .

[AllThatJazz]

woundedheart wrote...

About the romance options...

I have mixed feelings about everyone in DA2 being bisexual.

On one hand, I feel like it's a step forward because now the fans have more romance options. If a lesbian is playing a female character, they're not restricted to the only bisexual female in the entire game (such as Leliana in DA:O.) They have the option of romancing any of the females, which is great if the player happens to dislike Leliana and doesn't want to romance her.

On the other hand, however...

I feel like the bisexuality is ridiculous and contrived. I feel like it takes character away from the companions. Sexual preference is a very personal thing and I feel like having everyone in the game possess the same exact sexual preference just takes away from their individuality.

What do you guys think?

I would be more okay with LIs having differing sexual preferences if there were absolutely loads of them in the game. If you could populate the world with everybody's ideal romance of whatever sexual orientation as well as appearance, personality, moral code, depth of character etc, well  that would be just dandy. It would also be a bit of a dating sim, and would take a huge amount of resources to implement. As long as there are only a small number of potential romances, then in my view it's better, far, far, better, to make those romances accessible to as many people as possible; therefore having characters as bisexual or 'Hawkesexual' makes the most sense.  

Also, I would say that they aren't all bi. Anders and Isabela are bisexual; Sebastian is straight; Fenris and Merrill are inexperienced in relationships, and respond to Hawke specifically rather than having a more general sexual preference or lack thereof.  

Also Happy_Daiz, we have weirdly similar avatars. I had a moment there when I thought 'when the hell did I write that?!'

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 17 juin 2011 - 01:52 .

[Sutekh]

woundedheart wrote...

I'm talking about the fact that BioWare made all of the LIs attracted to both genders. That is ALL.

Technically, they aren't all attracted to both genders. Isabela is. The three others are undefined, which is a very important distinction. Depending on playthrough, they are either asexual, gay or straight (or bi if we take into account past relationships they might have had and we don't know about).

What makes them attracted to both genders is the meta-knowledge the player has. The objective reality of each playthrough doesn't.

[Pasquale1234]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

woundedheart wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Other than some presumed mental construct, how does it take away from their uniqueness?

It does not even come into play unless Hawke is seeking to romance them.

Pasquale, I'm not trying to be rude, but please read the 28498643 posts I made about how I'm talking about the characters themselves. Not how Hawke percieves them.

I'm talking about the fact that BioWare made all of the LIs attracted to both genders. That is ALL.

Except that your entire argument, at least the one you have been making here, is entirely about perception.

Your perception of them being somehow less unique, less diverse, less whatever - because of the metagame perspective that they are all bi.

(I prefer to think of them as pansexual, e.g., attracted to a -person- regardless of their sexual/gender identity and physical equipment, but...)

woundedheart wrote...
My argument about the characters being less diverse is based off personal perception, yes. What's your point? lol.

How soon we forget, lol.

And you still haven't addressed the question, which I bolded and underlined above for your convenience.

[Cutlass Jack]

AllThatJazz wrote...

Also Happy_Daiz, we have weirdly similar avatars. I had a moment there when I thought 'when the hell did I write that?!'

Funny, I've briefly confused you both on multiple occasions.

[AllThatJazz]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

Also Happy_Daiz, we have weirdly similar avatars. I had a moment there when I thought 'when the hell did I write that?!'

Funny, I've briefly confused you both on multiple occasions.

 I'm gonna have to make me a new Hawke! Not that I mind terribly, of course

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 17 juin 2011 - 02:02 .

[happy_daiz]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

Also Happy_Daiz, we have weirdly similar avatars. I had a moment there when I thought 'when the hell did I write that?!'

Funny, I've briefly confused you both on multiple occasions.

Too funny! I've done the same thing! 

[Cutlass Jack]

woundedheart wrote...

And I've explained before how all the characters having identical sexual preferences makes them less diverse.

Except they don't really. Yes all may go with either gender but its not for the same reasons. Lets look:

Isabela: Sex to her is a purely a physical thing you do for fun. Trying all sorts of things just adds to the fun. It would be like loving food but only eating the same meal every time. Love is an entirely different and scary creature that's not at all connected to the physical act of sex.

Anders: Lived a life of imprisonment, separated from his family. As an emotionally needy person, he takes love where he can find it. He can't afford to be picky. Even less so on his current path. He desparately wants to be loved but doesn't feel he deserves it.

Fenris: Lets face it: He was a slave picked for his looks in an highly decadent society. He probably was forced to do things that would make Isabela blush. Gender boundries probably don't even register in his mind.

Merril: A creature of affection more than physicality. Love is something to be embraced fully when you find it. Also, She's just not going to have the same hangups humans do.


That's pretty rich and diverse to me. All four potentially being for different reasons stretches coincidence perhaps, but not diversity.

[Cutlass Jack]

woundedheart wrote...

According to your logic, every single one of the LIs being a Templar doesn't detract from their individuality at all as long as they all have different reasons for being one.

Overexaggaration isn't helping your point any. Sexuality is a small portion of their character that you'll only see if pursued and has no effect on the main plotline. Everyone being Templars would have a massive impact on the main plotline.

But lets assume it was another plotline that didn't revolve so heavily on the mage vs. templar thing. Would it not be possible to have diverse and interesting Templars? I saw much diversity among them in game. Enemy-wise there were all four types of warriors and rogues (sword & shield/Two Hander/Dual/Archer). NPCwise, does Cullen, Cassandra and Leliana share much in common besides the group they work for?

I daresay you could have a wildly different and colorful group of Templars if you set your mind to it.

[happy_daiz]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

But lets assume it was another plotline that didn't revolve so heavily on the mage vs. templar thing. Would it not be possible to have diverse and interesting Templars? I saw much diversity among them in game. Enemy-wise there were all four types of warriors and rogues (sword & shield/Two Hander/Dual/Archer). NPCwise, does Cullen, Cassandra and Leliana share much in common besides the group they work for?

I daresay you could have a wildly different and colorful group of Templars if you set your mind to it.

You could add Keran and Samson to that lineup, and have quite the motley bunch.