645 réponses à ce sujet

[mesmerizedish]

Yes, it does make a lot of sense. I assumed I was straight until I was nineteen.

And didn't I justget done telling you you were misunderstanding me? Their sexualities are NOT necessarily "predetermined." As I said, you don't know that they're bi before you meet them. Maybe they're straight before you meet them. Maybe they're gay!

And your companion's life as a Templar is NOT determined before you meet him. Which I said ages ago.

If you're going to ignore what I'm actually saying in favor of the inane things you want me to have said, I'm just going to stop replying...

[Iosev]

I personally had no problem with the way the relationships were handled in DA 2. Yes, companions being PC-sexual isn't exactly realistic, but it gives players a larger degree of choice in terms of who your character can romance, which I value much more in a fantasy-based RPG than realism.

[Pasquale1234]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Yes, it does make a lot of sense. I assumed I was straight until I was nineteen.

Everyone is straight.  Until they're not.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Just because a character is designed as romanceable by both genders of PC, that doesn't mean that character needs to be bisexual. That character could favour one gender only in one playthrough, and then favour the other gender only in the next playthrough. Unless there's specific bi content, or a piece of backstroy about a differently gendered past partner, there's no need within any given playthrough to view a character as bi.

That the character would romance Hawke regardless of gender isn't knowable to Hawke. And while the player knows it, the player need not assume that the character's sexual preferences persist across playthroughs.

I like how BioWare is efficiently deploying resources to offer the greatest number of possible partners to all supported orientations. This is a good thing. There's no downside, unless you think that a gay man needs to be portrayed significantly differently from a straight man, but I don't accept that at all.

[Guns]

Or some characters could be strictly straight and some strictly gay instead of catering to every liberal whine out there.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Guns wrote...

Or some characters could be strictly straight and some strictly gay instead of catering to every liberal whine out there.

That would cost more to develop.

And again, who is to say that Anders isn't strictly gay when you play GentlemanHawke?  He only needs to be bi when you're playing LadyHawke, because he has that gay lover backstory.

[Guns]

How would that cost more to develop? Just keep the current characters except make some of them only romanceable(sp?) to certain genders?

[Akka le Vil]

Perles75 wrote...

the problem is the always same: both DAO and DA2 have only 4 LIs. With 4 LIs you can explore only few options regarding romance, as DAO showed.
The solution chosen for DA2 was to make each LI straight of gay depending on the sex of Hawke, which indeed gives always 4 choices but that is indeed not too elegant.

The only way to solve this problem "realistically" is to enlarge the number of LIs with preset sexuality. But this needs a minimum of 8 LIs (2 straight women, 2 straight men, 2 lesbians and 2 gays). And I'm not sure you can create 8 interesting characters with 8 interesting romances...
And this not to mention the race!

This post encompass everything that was pointed out when saying that romances are becoming just far too much formulaic.

It's not a compliment.

[Sutekh]

woundedheart wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

You don't know they're bisexual prior to meeting you.

Do you know what "predetermined" means?  

Me knowing their sexual orientation doesn't decide their sexual orientation. That's decided before they even meet you.

No. That's decided the very moment you choose that heart icon. Not a picosecond before.

What, other than your own meta-knowledge, gives you any indication whatsoever about their sexuality? And, again, how is that different than them becoming companions no matter what?

If you play only once, and stay away from any game information or spoiler, then all Lis have fixed and different sexual orientations. You, having the meta-knowledge you have, have decided they were all bi, based on no other evidence than said meta-knowledge. I, because I say so, could decide that Anders has always been gay, Merrill asexual and Fenris straight because in that one playthrough I did, I romanced Anders, ignored Merrill and Fenris hooked up with Isabela. In that other one, their orientations were different. None of them were bi in any playthrough.

Would you say that Carver is both a *spoiler* and a *spoiler* or even *spoiler*, because meta-knowledge dictates he can be all three?

Schrödinger's cat, anyone?

Also,

- Any LI will fall for Hawke if flirted with: predetermined by the game mechanics.

- Any potential companion will become one if asked: predetermined by the game mechanics.

By the very nature of computer programming, lots of things will be predetermined. Hawkesexuality is only one of them.

Why this one bothers you and not the other is beyond me. In one, they fall for Hawke as a lover, in the other as a leader. They still fall for Hawke. All of them. Regardless of cultural background, political views, or beliefs, which are as important as sexual orientation, if not more, because in a world as non-repressive as Thedas, orientation doesn't matter except in the sack.

[FieryDove]

Sutekh wrote...

Also,

- Any LI will fall for Hawke if flirted with: predetermined by the game mechanics.

- Any potential companion will become one if asked: predetermined by the game mechanics.

By the very nature of computer programming, lots of things will be predetermined. Hawkesexuality is only one of them.

Why this one bothers you and not the other is beyond me. In one, they fall for Hawke as a lover, in the other as a leader. They still fall for Hawke. All of them. Regardless of cultural background, political views, or beliefs, which are as important as sexual orientation, if not more, because in a world as non-repressive as Thedas, orientation doesn't matter except in the sack.

Well said, you are hired.

[happy_daiz]

FieryDove wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Also,

- Any LI will fall for Hawke if flirted with: predetermined by the game mechanics.

- Any potential companion will become one if asked: predetermined by the game mechanics.

By the very nature of computer programming, lots of things will be predetermined. Hawkesexuality is only one of them.

Why this one bothers you and not the other is beyond me. In one, they fall for Hawke as a lover, in the other as a leader. They still fall for Hawke. All of them. Regardless of cultural background, political views, or beliefs, which are as important as sexual orientation, if not more, because in a world as non-repressive as Thedas, orientation doesn't matter except in the sack.

Well said, you are hired.

Agreed.

[Wulfram]

Sutekh wrote...

No. That's decided the very moment you choose that heart icon. Not a picosecond before.

What, other than your own meta-knowledge, gives you any indication whatsoever about their sexuality? And, again, how is that different than them becoming companions no matter what?

Anders makes his attraction to Hawke clear if they are nice to him, and was established as interested in women in Awakening.  Fenris and Isabela sleep together.  Even Merrill potentially expresses a wish to dream of a naked Champion, and sort of flirts with Carver.

All without any heart icons selected. Not that I think this is a bad thing.

[Maria Caliban]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Everyone is straight.  Until they're not.

No. I never considered myself straight nor did I ever have an interest in men.

[Bejos_]

Sutekh wrote...

woundedheart wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

You don't know they're bisexual prior to meeting you.

Do you know what "predetermined" means?  

Me knowing their sexual orientation doesn't decide their sexual orientation. That's decided before they even meet you.

No. That's decided the very moment you choose that heart icon. Not a picosecond before.

What, other than your own meta-knowledge, gives you any indication whatsoever about their sexuality? And, again, how is that different than them becoming companions no matter what?

If you play only once, and stay away from any game information or spoiler, then all Lis have fixed and different sexual orientations. You, having the meta-knowledge you have, have decided they were all bi, based on no other evidence than said meta-knowledge. I, because I say so, could decide that Anders has always been gay, Merrill asexual and Fenris straight because in that one playthrough I did, I romanced Anders, ignored Merrill and Fenris hooked up with Isabela. In that other one, their orientations were different. None of them were bi in any playthrough.

Would you say that Carver is both a *spoiler* and a *spoiler* or even *spoiler*, because meta-knowledge dictates he can be all three?

Schrödinger's cat, anyone?

Also,

- Any LI will fall for Hawke if flirted with: predetermined by the game mechanics.

- Any potential companion will become one if asked: predetermined by the game mechanics.

By the very nature of computer programming, lots of things will be predetermined. Hawkesexuality is only one of them.

Why this one bothers you and not the other is beyond me. In one, they fall for Hawke as a lover, in the other as a leader. They still fall for Hawke. All of them. Regardless of cultural background, political views, or beliefs, which are as important as sexual orientation, if not more, because in a world as non-repressive as Thedas, orientation doesn't matter except in the sack.

Yeah, it's been said before, Setahk, but apparently very few people are happy with this explanation.
I would just imagine that no one has any determined sexuality in a particular playthrough in DA2, unless you specifically interact with them in such a way as to give them a sexuality.
Forests falling in trees and all that.
I'm satisfied with that; most people seem not to be.

[Sutekh]

Wulfram wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

No. That's decided the very moment you choose that heart icon. Not a picosecond before.

What, other than your own meta-knowledge, gives you any indication whatsoever about their sexuality? And, again, how is that different than them becoming companions no matter what?

Anders makes his attraction to Hawke clear if they are nice to him, and was established as interested in women in Awakening.  Fenris and Isabela sleep together.  Even Merrill potentially expresses a wish to dream of a naked Champion, and sort of flirts with Carver.

All without any heart icons selected. Not that I think this is a bad thing.

Agreed. Those are indeed the default behaviors in a no-romance case, and I could have expressed myself better. 
They're all straight by default, then? Hey, I could complain about that  *complains* 

The point I was replying to was their so-called bisexuality being decided (predetermined) prior to meeting Hawke. That they are all bisexual by default (and it's a bad, bad thing). We know Anders from Awakening (if we have played it, and many assumed he was straight then), but not the others. We have no way to determine their sexuality before Hawke meets them, it is our actions or gender that determines said sexuality, therefore it isn't predetermined, their Hawkesexuality is.

[Anathemic]

Hey look it's this thread again. Well since everyone else is adding to the fire contributing to the discussion at hand, best I'll give my own thoughts into it.

Having all the LI's bisexual gives off the unrealistic vibe to me, short and simple. Realistically in our world you will have more people with one-way sexual orientations (homosexuals and heterosexuals) than people with two-way sexual orientations (bisexuals).

But one may argue, this isn't the real world, this is Thedas! Fantasy herp derp.

Yes yes I know. You won't believe how many times this argument as been thrown around in this topic. However to counter, I can name a good number of things in Thedas/Dragon Age unvierse that is based off in our world. Such as the religion of the Maker which is a pseudo-spinoff of Catholicism/Christianity (give or take, and no you can't deny this, Andraste is Jesus). Or the fact that the known countries of Thedas are heavily similar to those of Western Europe (Orlais = France, Ferelden = Great Britain, etc.).

Anyways the main point to counter the argument above is that, the Dragon Age universe/Thedas is heavily based upon our world's aspects. Would it be unreasonable to say that the ratios of sexual orientation are not the same if not similar to a degree? I think not.

[Bejos_]

Anathemic wrote...

Hey look it's this thread again. Well since everyone else is adding to the fire contributing to the discussion at hand, best I'll give my own thoughts into it.

Having all the LI's bisexual gives off the unrealistic vibe to me, short and simple. Realistically in our world you will have more people with one-way sexual orientations (homosexuals and heterosexuals) than people with two-way sexual orientations (bisexuals).

But one may argue, this isn't the real world, this is Thedas! Fantasy herp derp.

Yes yes I know. You won't believe how many times this argument as been thrown around in this topic. However to counter, I can name a good number of things in Thedas/Dragon Age unvierse that is based off in our world. Such as the religion of the Maker which is a pseudo-spinoff of Catholicism/Christianity (give or take, and no you can't deny this, Andraste is Jesus). Or the fact that the known countries of Thedas are heavily similar to those of Western Europe (Orlais = France, Ferelden = Great Britain, etc.).

Anyways the main point to counter the argument above is that, the Dragon Age universe/Thedas is heavily based upon our world's aspects. Would it be unreasonable to say that the ratios of sexual orientation are not the same if not similar to a degree? I think not.

Except that Andrasteism doesn't seem to have anything against sexuality, and neither do other philosophies. Most people in Thedas seem okay with all of the sexualities.

It may well be that, had we grown up in different times and places (e.g. Ancient Greece), we might be bi. Who knows? I don't happen to find men particularly sexy, but maybe it's just because I grew up in a time that has heterosexuality as its norm?

Anyway ... discussion of the above would seem to move us in the direction that such threads go before they are locked.

Modifié par Bejos_, 17 juin 2011 - 10:16 .

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Everyone is straight.  Until they're not.

No. I never considered myself straight nor did I ever have an interest in men.

I don't know if I'd say I "considered" myself straight. I chose the word "assumed" for a reason. I had no interest in men, but assumed I was straight out of ignorance. In truth, I didn't have much sexual desire at all until college, when a passion was ignited inside me. It was more of a realization of a desire that was always there, but of which I was unaware. I hadn't really been exposed to the possiblities.

It was simply not something I really thought about until I saw something I wanted

[Anathemic]

Bejos_ wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Hey look it's this thread again. Well since everyone else is adding to the fire contributing to the discussion at hand, best I'll give my own thoughts into it.

Having all the LI's bisexual gives off the unrealistic vibe to me, short and simple. Realistically in our world you will have more people with one-way sexual orientations (homosexuals and heterosexuals) than people with two-way sexual orientations (bisexuals).

But one may argue, this isn't the real world, this is Thedas! Fantasy herp derp.

Yes yes I know. You won't believe how many times this argument as been thrown around in this topic. However to counter, I can name a good number of things in Thedas/Dragon Age unvierse that is based off in our world. Such as the religion of the Maker which is a pseudo-spinoff of Catholicism/Christianity (give or take, and no you can't deny this, Andraste is Jesus). Or the fact that the known countries of Thedas are heavily similar to those of Western Europe (Orlais = France, Ferelden = Great Britain, etc.).

Anyways the main point to counter the argument above is that, the Dragon Age universe/Thedas is heavily based upon our world's aspects. Would it be unreasonable to say that the ratios of sexual orientation are not the same if not similar to a degree? I think not.

Except that Andrasteism doesn't seem to have anything against sexuality, and neither do other philosophies. Most people in Thedas seem okay with all of the sexualities.

It may well be that, had we grown up in different times and places (e.g. Ancient Greece), we might be bi. Who knows? I don't happen to find men particularly sexy, but maybe it's just because I grew up in a time that has heterosexuality as its norm?

Anyway ... discussion of the above would seem to move us in the direction that such threads go before they are locked.

Aww but I was only replying to the OP.

As for your ocmment on Andrasteism, that's why I said it's a "pseudo-spinoff of Catholicism/Christianity" :happy:

[Pasquale1234]

Anathemic wrote...

Hey look it's this thread again. Well since everyone else is adding to the fire contributing to the discussion at hand, best I'll give my own thoughts into it.

Having all the LI's bisexual gives off the unrealistic vibe to me, short and simple. Realistically in our world you will have more people with one-way sexual orientations (homosexuals and heterosexuals) than people with two-way sexual orientations (bisexuals).

But one may argue, this isn't the real world, this is Thedas! Fantasy herp derp.

Yes yes I know. You won't believe how many times this argument as been thrown around in this topic. However to counter, I can name a good number of things in Thedas/Dragon Age unvierse that is based off in our world. Such as the religion of the Maker which is a pseudo-spinoff of Catholicism/Christianity (give or take, and no you can't deny this, Andraste is Jesus). Or the fact that the known countries of Thedas are heavily similar to those of Western Europe (Orlais = France, Ferelden = Great Britain, etc.).

Anyways the main point to counter the argument above is that, the Dragon Age universe/Thedas is heavily based upon our world's aspects. Would it be unreasonable to say that the ratios of sexual orientation are not the same if not similar to a degree? I think not.

Except that the Chantry is matriarchal and does not condemn same-sex relationships.  Are you seriously suggesting those factors would not have a significant impact on the culture?

If you want an example of such impact, I suggest you take a look at what we know about early (pre-Christian) Roman and Greek cultures.

[whykikyouwhy]

Anathemic wrote...

Hey look it's this thread again. Well since everyone else is adding to the fire contributing to the discussion at hand, best I'll give my own thoughts into it.

Having all the LI's bisexual gives off the unrealistic vibe to me, short and simple. Realistically in our world you will have more people with one-way sexual orientations (homosexuals and heterosexuals) than people with two-way sexual orientations (bisexuals).

But one may argue, this isn't the real world, this is Thedas! Fantasy herp derp.

Yes yes I know. You won't believe how many times this argument as been thrown around in this topic. However to counter, I can name a good number of things in Thedas/Dragon Age unvierse that is based off in our world. Such as the religion of the Maker which is a pseudo-spinoff of Catholicism/Christianity (give or take, and no you can't deny this, Andraste is Jesus). Or the fact that the known countries of Thedas are heavily similar to those of Western Europe (Orlais = France, Ferelden = Great Britain, etc.).

Anyways the main point to counter the argument above is that, the Dragon Age universe/Thedas is heavily based upon our world's aspects. Would it be unreasonable to say that the ratios of sexual orientation are not the same if not similar to a degree? I think not.

Sure, this topic has come up again, and sure, people are jumping in to comment on it, because intelligent discourse can be a wonderful thing.

I am with the crowd that believes that the companions aren't clear-cut. As its been pointed out before, Hawke doesn't know their sexual leanings or desires prior to meeting them. And as its also been pointed out, Hawke doesn't have to go down any road to discover those things. So really, the LIs may not be bisexual. If you play out a game where you don't seek any of the romance options, you might not even know that the companions are having sex, save for a few sentences in some party banter.

And yes, there are RL parallels in Dragon Age. There are influences and homages. But that doesn't necessarily dictate that Thedas should be judged through the lens of the real world, especially when it comes to statistics. That's a tenuous area to judge the game by.

[Anathemic]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Hey look it's this thread again. Well since everyone else is adding to the fire contributing to the discussion at hand, best I'll give my own thoughts into it.

Having all the LI's bisexual gives off the unrealistic vibe to me, short and simple. Realistically in our world you will have more people with one-way sexual orientations (homosexuals and heterosexuals) than people with two-way sexual orientations (bisexuals).

But one may argue, this isn't the real world, this is Thedas! Fantasy herp derp.

Yes yes I know. You won't believe how many times this argument as been thrown around in this topic. However to counter, I can name a good number of things in Thedas/Dragon Age unvierse that is based off in our world. Such as the religion of the Maker which is a pseudo-spinoff of Catholicism/Christianity (give or take, and no you can't deny this, Andraste is Jesus). Or the fact that the known countries of Thedas are heavily similar to those of Western Europe (Orlais = France, Ferelden = Great Britain, etc.).

Anyways the main point to counter the argument above is that, the Dragon Age universe/Thedas is heavily based upon our world's aspects. Would it be unreasonable to say that the ratios of sexual orientation are not the same if not similar to a degree? I think not.

Except that the Chantry is matriarchal and does not condemn same-sex relationships.  Are you seriously suggesting those factors would not have a significant impact on the culture?

If you want an example of such impact, I suggest you take a look at what we know about early (pre-Christian) Roman and Greek cultures.

What kind of influence does culture have on the biological ratios of sexual orientations?

[Pasquale1234]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Everyone is straight.  Until they're not.

No. I never considered myself straight nor did I ever have an interest in men.

I don't know if I'd say I "considered" myself straight. I chose the word "assumed" for a reason. I had no interest in men, but assumed I was straight out of ignorance. In truth, I didn't have much sexual desire at all until college, when a passion was ignited inside me. It was more of a realization of a desire that was always there, but of which I was unaware. I hadn't really been exposed to the possiblities.

It was simply not something I really thought about until I saw something I wanted

That line came from an episode of The L Word, and seemed pertinent to me.

Heterosexuality seems to be the assumed default in this culture at this time.

I've never heard of anyone having to tell their family and friends they are straight...

[Sylvius the Mad]

Anathemic wrote...

What kind of influence does culture have on the biological ratios of sexual orientations?

Culture clearly has an enormous impact on sexual behaviour.

[Anathemic]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Hey look it's this thread again. Well since everyone else is adding to the fire contributing to the discussion at hand, best I'll give my own thoughts into it.

Having all the LI's bisexual gives off the unrealistic vibe to me, short and simple. Realistically in our world you will have more people with one-way sexual orientations (homosexuals and heterosexuals) than people with two-way sexual orientations (bisexuals).

But one may argue, this isn't the real world, this is Thedas! Fantasy herp derp.

Yes yes I know. You won't believe how many times this argument as been thrown around in this topic. However to counter, I can name a good number of things in Thedas/Dragon Age unvierse that is based off in our world. Such as the religion of the Maker which is a pseudo-spinoff of Catholicism/Christianity (give or take, and no you can't deny this, Andraste is Jesus). Or the fact that the known countries of Thedas are heavily similar to those of Western Europe (Orlais = France, Ferelden = Great Britain, etc.).

Anyways the main point to counter the argument above is that, the Dragon Age universe/Thedas is heavily based upon our world's aspects. Would it be unreasonable to say that the ratios of sexual orientation are not the same if not similar to a degree? I think not.

Sure, this topic has come up again, and sure, people are jumping in to comment on it, because intelligent discourse can be a wonderful thing.

I am with the crowd that believes that the companions aren't clear-cut. As its been pointed out before, Hawke doesn't know their sexual leanings or desires prior to meeting them. And as its also been pointed out, Hawke doesn't have to go down any road to discover those things. So really, the LIs may not be bisexual. If you play out a game where you don't seek any of the romance options, you might not even know that the companions are having sex, save for a few sentences in some party banter.

And yes, there are RL parallels in Dragon Age. There are influences and homages. But that doesn't necessarily dictate that Thedas should be judged through the lens of the real world, especially when it comes to statistics. That's a tenuous area to judge the game by.

That argument is reasonable, for one and only one playthrough. The problem is in that argument is when you go through another playthrough and decide to go somewhere different (in terms of choosing LI's) the game caters to that descision and decides to switch the sexual orientation of a character (yes I said caters, not adapts). From here we can only assume that said LI is bisexual (having preference for both sexual orientations), unless in every playthrough it's really a parallel universe, which I tend to find just plain silly.

No Thedas shouldn't be judged all the time through the lens of the real world. Take the aspect of magic for instance. Everyone agrees upon magic and likes it, because it has a good foundation into the game, work has been done upon it to make it fit perfectly.

Now on the topic of sexual orientation, no work has really been done upon it except for the cultural policy of "it's okay! Everyone can be who they want to be with!" This is cool and whatnot, however, that's all it has. What about hte biological aspect of it? It would be great if any sex coupling will produce offspring, but from what we've seen in the game this isn't the case. So I'm afraid since the aspect of sexual orientations hasn't been granted enough effort to solidfy itself in the game as the norm, it has to be observed by its RL parallel.