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[CaptainZaysh]

This thread is the Punishing Paragons thread's cool younger sister.

There's a lot of talk on these forums about how Paragon options are an "I win" button.  In short: with the sole exception of the Elnora encounter, Paragon options never have negative outcomes.  The commonly proposed solution is to Punish Paragons - make some of those decisions backfire.

Here's an alternative idea.  Instead of Punishing Paragons, let's think more about Rewarding Renegades.  Instead of gimping the Paragon "I win" button, why not give the Renegades one, too?

This thread is either to discuss the merit of the idea itself (should there even be one "I win" button, let alone two?) or to suggest ways Renegades could have been Rewarded for their decisions.  I'll kick off with one:

ME1 RACHNI DECISION.  
Paragon reward: a cameo character who reinforces the Paragon decision and promises rachni aid in ME3.
Renegade reward: nada.

Now the Paragon Punishment route would probably suggest instead of a peaceful asari emissary, the Paragons should have to deal with a tearful asari refugee whose bondmate and nine adorable children were torn to shreds by terrifying psychic insects.  But I don't think that's really ideal because all it amounts to is BioWare saying LOL U WERE PLAYING IT WRONG!

Proposed Renegade Reward: extra dialogue on Tuchanka.  A krogan praises Shep for "having the quad to finish the job" and asks why s/he made the decision.  Shep can express remorse (Paragon) or ruthlessness (Renegade).  The krogan ends the conversation by saying that whatever the reason, Shep is a hero to a lot of krogan.  "I just expected you to be a bit taller."

This way both Paragons and Renegades get to feel all warm and fuzzy inside - they're both playing it right.  Thoughts?

[Bogsnot1]

If you need some form of pat on the back from someone else in regards to your renegade decisions, you're not a renegade.
Being a renegade is its own reward.

[Golden Owl]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

If you need some form of pat on the back from someone else in regards to your renegade decisions, you're not a renegade.
Being a renegade is its own reward.

Though the same can also be said for paragons, if being a paragon is for the pats on the back, then all they are is a people pleaser, not a paragon.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I'm a Paragon player and I dn't care if sparing lives gives me a bonus in the next game or not. Sure it would be cool to have the Rachni help me out and other things like that but if they don't that's ok. I made the decisions I made because they were morally correct to me and that's it.

[SennenScale]

I always thought the reward is you get to punch reporters, pull outrageous stunts, using ME2 interrupts that make battles easier and yet Shepard is merely reprimanded.

But yeah, giving renegade players alternate content would be a good idea.

[tjzsf]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

If you need some form of pat on the back from someone else in regards to your renegade decisions, you're not a renegade.
Being a renegade is its own reward.

No, being a paragon is its own reward.
Being a renegade means you're like Mordin, always having to rationalize to yourself that it was the best thing that could be done, and always getting called out by people with paragon leanings until one day you snap and give them the "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH" speech.

To OP, I'm not so sure that "rewarding" a renegade is really all that possible. There's two ways to "reward", in-verse (approval by other characters) or meta (extra content), and the reward/punishment also has to be something at least kind of foreseeable (rewriting the geth causes the true geth to see things the heretics way after concensus is reached is foreseeable; rewriting them causing another computational error that makes them decide to stop taking care of quarian homeworld is not). The moral divide is supposedly that Paragons are more idealistic/trusting and Renegades are more cynical/skeptical, so if you wanted to really "reward" one it necessitates taking away/punishing the other. Like with the rachni, the reward is less the cameo and more the fact that you've been promised help against the Reapers. It's hard to think of a way for renegades to be rewarded roughly equitably with something foreseeable for that decision - the only real foreseeable negative is if the rachni turn out to be a problem later on, but what then? Do you give a "exterminate rampaging rachni" subquest (thus giving more extra content to paragons)? Or just a Charm/Intimidate check to see if you can convince both sides to live in peace vs a bad ending after the Reapers are beaten where a rachni war resumes?

The best way IMO to solve this would just be to make more BDtS decisions, where you can justify both choices using reason that goes further than standard p/r dogma, and to give different cameos for renegades as well (thus giving you a consequence for your action, but also not giving you less content, even if certain paragon players belittle that content). The next best would be to somehow reward both, but for the big decisions it's kind of hard. The only fallback, then, is to punish some paragon decisions. Doesn't have to be all or even half of them; something like 1/3 (enough to deter people from just picking upper right if blue/red isn't enabled). I guarantee you there'd be a LOT less renegade complaining if that happened.

[Seboist]

Here's my list of replacement cameos and references that should have been added.

Sacrificed the council? You get to see the human led council and get congragulated by Alliance brass (Hackett and/or Mikhailovich) for making humans stronger on the Galactic scene.

Killed the Rachni Queen? You get to see an ex-Peak 15 worker (Captain Vetralis, Han Olar or Dr. Zev Cohen) and/or Wrex/Wreav or some random Krogan congragulating Shepard for honoring the sacrifice of their ancestors.

Killed criminals like Helena Blake and Fist? You get a news report or a mention by Bailey that their deaths reduced crime.

Killed Shiala? Lizbeth/Juliana Baynham replace her.

Killed Rana Thanoptis? Some new assistant researcher replaces her.

Gianna dies?  Lorik Quin or Maeko Mutsuo replace her.

^ any of these would be better than the current suitation where we get absolutely nothing (Fist/Helena Blake) or any indicator that our past decision has any long term impact (Killing Rachni Queen).

[Smeelia]

I don't really think any punishment or reward is necessary since both sides "win" in pretty much every situation (as it should be, in my view at least).

Still, I'm in favour of extra content and I can't see any reason you couldn't have alternative encounters in a lot of situations where a particular choice was made (people keep coming up with good ideas for examples).

I think the idea of "punishments" for Paragons is particularly stupid, it'd mean a drastic change in the tone of the game and wouldn't make nearly as much sense as some people seem to think (improbable is not impossible).  Similarly, having Renegades "lose" because they weren't "moral" enough would be ridiculous so I can't see that happening either (they might have a significantly different situation in the end but they'll still deal with the Reapers and such).  It's also better when each decision has it's own outcomes, since a lot of players don't stick entirely to one side or the other and it wouldn't be as good if there were really only two mutually exclusive paths (ME2 proves this to an extent).

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I agree that being renegade is its own reward. Playing paragon is painful at times, paragon Shep is just so naive, she thinks everything will work out so long as you have good intentions (sadly she's often right in the ME universe).

Maybe in ME3 when the Collector Base has been turned into an anti-reaper strip club and paragon Shep is being chased around by Samara who's pissed about arrival, renegade Shep will be enjoying a drink with Morinth and toasting her good choices.

[Smeelia]

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...
I agree that being renegade is its own reward. Playing paragon is painful at times, paragon Shep is just so naive, she thinks everything will work out so long as you have good intentions (sadly she's often right in the ME universe).

You have an odd definition of "sadly".

[Commander_Adept]

The Rachni decision is definitely going to influence Mass 3, or else it wouldn't have been included in Genesis.

In any case, I'm sure Bioware will shake it up a little in 3 in the way that some painful Renegade decisions would reward you more than the Paragon ones.

Perhaps, sacrificing Wrex on Virmire is a good thing for Shepard in 3? Maybe Wreav is more likely to allow the Krogan as a whole take up arms against the Reapers, whereas Wrex wants to save the species and focus on the genophage? Either choice has a different, interesting outcome. Perhaps related to that, if Mordin is alive and has Maelon's data, Wrex won't let the clans battle the Reapers due to this data that should be follow through upon. Whereas if the data was destroyed/Mordin is dead, Wrex will give into the idea of fighting the Reapers. That would be certainly cool with me. It's possible that the Rachni decision may come into play here as well. "You dug your own hole, you can get out of it" if the Rachni lived or "Well, at least you didn't add an enemy that we already killed many years ago. You're alright, Shepard" etc

Renegades will likely be rewarded in 3, but I'm not saying that Paragons won't get a similar treatment, in different ways.

[Smeelia]

Commander_Adept wrote...

The Rachni decision is definitely going to influence Mass 3, or else it wouldn't have been included in Genesis.

In any case, I'm sure Bioware will shake it up a little in 3 in the way that some painful Renegade decisions would reward you more than the Paragon ones.

Perhaps, sacrificing Wrex on Virmire is a good thing for Shepard in 3? Maybe Wreav is more likely to allow the Krogan as a whole take up arms against the Reapers, whereas Wrex wants to save the species and focus on the genophage? Either choice has a different, interesting outcome. Perhaps related to that, if Mordin is alive and has Maelon's data, Wrex won't let the clans battle the Reapers due to this data that should be follow through upon. Whereas if the data was destroyed/Mordin is dead, Wrex will give into the idea of fighting the Reapers. That would be certainly cool with me. It's possible that the Rachni decision may come into play here as well. "You dug your own hole, you can get out of it" if the Rachni lived or "Well, at least you didn't add an enemy that we already killed many years ago. You're alright, Shepard" etc

Renegades will likely be rewarded in 3, but I'm not saying that Paragons won't get a similar treatment, in different ways.

This sort of thing makes sense and could work, it'd be especially good for people who took a varied approach and didn't just stick to Paragon or Renegade choices.  It's much better to have interesting explorations of possible outcomes and both the positives and negatives.  The main thing is that it should mean more for Shepard to do (just because things ended up a mess, doesn't mean you can't clean it up) and more interesting choices and scenes.

It should stick to the general tone and theme though, Mass Effect isn't particularly "dark" (especially when you make Paragon choices) and if it changed drastically I'd be disappointed (there are plenty of "dark" stories out there already, perhaps too many).  I'm pretty sure things will all work out in the long run (even if the galaxy isn't exactly going to end up a perfect place either way) and I'm happy with that (of course they could sneak a "you lose" ending in there, which is fine as long as it makes sense and isn't the only possibility).

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Smeelia wrote...

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...
I agree that being renegade is its own reward. Playing paragon is painful at times, paragon Shep is just so naive, she thinks everything will work out so long as you have good intentions (sadly she's often right in the ME universe).

You have an odd definition of "sadly".

lol you have a point, but I don't think naivety should be rewarded. Shepard's never gonna learn if some of her illogical but moral choices don't bite her in the arse.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Alternate encounters that match Paragon results in terms of raw content, times where the Renegade choice results in a better outcome (ie more lives saved, more respect, more positive feedback), and if you are responsible for someone coming on the scene... maybe seeing them... that'd be nice.

It's not about people pleasing, but Renegade Shepard is still a hero... if the game never takes the time to focus on this (or any bright side of what the Renegade has done)... people may start getting the idea that Renegade means "evil"... whoops too late.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 juin 2011 - 04:20 .

[Smeelia]

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

lol you have a point, but I don't think naivety should be rewarded. Shepard's never gonna learn if some of her illogical but moral choices don't bite her in the arse.

The problem with that is that if Shepard is making choices on a moral basis (taking the hopeful approach that doing the good thing might work out, even if it's less likely) then they're never going to "learn" no matter how many things go wrong.  Quite simply, if they're making the decision on a moral basis then the outcome doesn't affect the "rightness" of the original choice.  This kind of works the same for more "rational" Shepards, they make the decision that seems the most likely to work based on their given knowledge and even if it doesn't work out as they'd hoped it doesn't mean there was anything "wrong" with the decision making process.

The fact is that taking a chance on a positive outcome isn't guaranteed to go wrong.  It may not be likely that things will work out well every time but it's still possible and I think that's an important point that people sometimes forget.  Naive pessimism is no better than naive optimism.

I quite like the positive vibe of Mass Effect (maybe less positive when playing Renegade but that works for me too, I do both and some in-between) and it'd be boring if every story was cynical (or "rational").

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Alternate encounters that match Paragon results in terms of raw content, times where the Renegade choice results in a better outcome (ie more lives saved, more respect, more positive feedback), and if you are responsible for someone coming on the scene... maybe seeing them... that'd be nice.

It's not about people pleasing, but Renegade Shepard is still a hero... if the game never takes the time to focus on this (or any bright side of what the Renegade has done)... people may start getting the idea that Renegade means "evil"... whoops too late.

This is a good point, a lot of people in the game might think that Renegade Shepard is a bit evil but at the end of the day you know that Shepard is the hero and is doing "what needs to be done" (even if, metagaming wise, there are alternatives that give similar results without the hate).  There are moment where even Bioware seem to risk forgetting that Shepard is the hero of the story no matter which bar is being filled (I think they mostly do alright though, to be fair).

Modifié par Smeelia, 16 juin 2011 - 04:30 .

[ReallyRue]

Seboist wrote...

Here's my list of replacement cameos and references that should have been added.

Sacrificed the council? You get to see the human led council and get congragulated by Alliance brass (Hackett and/or Mikhailovich) for making humans stronger on the Galactic scene.

Killed the Rachni Queen? You get to see an ex-Peak 15 worker (Captain Vetralis, Han Olar or Dr. Zev Cohen) and/or Wrex/Wreav or some random Krogan congragulating Shepard for honoring the sacrifice of their ancestors.

Killed criminals like Helena Blake and Fist? You get a news report or a mention by Bailey that their deaths reduced crime.

Killed Shiala? Lizbeth/Juliana Baynham replace her.

Killed Rana Thanoptis? Some new assistant researcher replaces her.

Gianna dies?  Lorik Quin or Maeko Mutsuo replace her.

^ any of these would be better than the current suitation where we get absolutely nothing (Fist/Helena Blake) or any indicator that our past decision has any long term impact (Killing Rachni Queen).

I agree with this. Especially the top two. There are plenty of characters who would agree with renegade Shep's decisions, just as there are plenty who agree with the paragon Shep. I rather hope that the existence of the rachni affects the krogans' willingness to help Shepard, though I suppose Wrex would tip the balance in Shep's favour anyway.

[Blitzkrieg0811]

No. I think it's finally time for Renegades to get their comeuppance. Paragon players got severely shafted in ME2. All the coolest cutscenes and all the best lines were renegade, despite the fact that every poll shows that most players aren't renegade. The writting staff needs to balance this in ME3.

[Seboist]

ReallyRue wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Here's my list of replacement cameos and references that should have been added.

Sacrificed the council? You get to see the human led council and get congragulated by Alliance brass (Hackett and/or Mikhailovich) for making humans stronger on the Galactic scene.

Killed the Rachni Queen? You get to see an ex-Peak 15 worker (Captain Vetralis, Han Olar or Dr. Zev Cohen) and/or Wrex/Wreav or some random Krogan congragulating Shepard for honoring the sacrifice of their ancestors.

Killed criminals like Helena Blake and Fist? You get a news report or a mention by Bailey that their deaths reduced crime.

Killed Shiala? Lizbeth/Juliana Baynham replace her.

Killed Rana Thanoptis? Some new assistant researcher replaces her.

Gianna dies?  Lorik Quin or Maeko Mutsuo replace her.

^ any of these would be better than the current suitation where we get absolutely nothing (Fist/Helena Blake) or any indicator that our past decision has any long term impact (Killing Rachni Queen).

I agree with this. Especially the top two. There are plenty of characters who would agree with renegade Shep's decisions, just as there are plenty who agree with the paragon Shep. I rather hope that the existence of the rachni affects the krogans' willingness to help Shepard, though I suppose Wrex would tip the balance in Shep's favour anyway.

The Rachni Queen decision should have factored into whether Wrex would back down on Virmire as well. I found it strange how he just brushes it off like it's no big deal afterwords and then in ME2 completely forgets about it.

[Smeelia]

Blitzkrieg0811 wrote...

No. I think it's finally time for Renegades to get their comeuppance. Paragon players got severely shafted in ME2. All the coolest cutscenes and all the best lines were renegade, despite the fact that every poll shows that most players aren't renegade. The writting staff needs to balance this in ME3.

That's really a matter of opinion, I like a lot of lines and moments that are Paragon (or at least upper portion of the wheel).  I still like playing Renegade as well, I just happen to think both are quite awesome in their own ways.

Seboist wrote...
The Rachni Queen decision should have factored into whether Wrex would back down on Virmire as well. I found it strange how he just brushes it off like it's no big deal afterwords and then in ME2 completely forgets about it.

Saving the Queen isn't necessarily a negative from the point of view of the Krogan though, it shows you're anti-genocide (something that they're facing) and willing to move on from past conflicts (something the Krogan have plenty of).  Of course most Krogan care more about being all warrior like and good at fighting but even for them killing a trapped creature in an acid bath is probably not going to seem like much of a "victory" or show of strength.

Krogan also believe that strength deserves respect (and loyalty in the case of leaders), Wrex has no reason to believe that you're not strong now (even death doesn't stop you) so he may well believe that your decisions were right (or at least that he should respect your decisions even if he doesn't agree).

Modifié par Smeelia, 16 juin 2011 - 04:54 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Blitzkrieg0811 wrote...

No. I think it's finally time for Renegades to get their comeuppance. Paragon players got severely shafted in ME2. All the coolest cutscenes and all the best lines were renegade, despite the fact that every poll shows that most players aren't renegade. The writting staff needs to balance this in ME3.

I disagree.  Punching Zaeed and saying "I outta knock you the h*** out" is one of my all time favorite moments in ME2 and an awesome only Paragon gets to enjoy.

Some others:

-Saving the Batarian sick with the plague
-Hugging Tali when she finds her father
-Stopping the kid from getting killed going against Archangel


Probably number one awesome moment is in ME1 against Saren...

Shepard:  "It's not over yet!  You can still redeem yourself!"

Saren:  "Thank you Shepard"  //shoots self in the head

Shepard:  "Make sure he's dead."

lol  OOOoooooooo!!  Shepard's one bad mamajama!

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 juin 2011 - 04:57 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

And saying "Renegade is its own reward" is like saying "House's attitude is its own reward." What makes House a compelling character is that, despite his attitude, he saves lives when no one else can.

For those who don't know, House (Gregory House) is a character of a doctor tv series that goes by the same name.

[Blitzkrieg0811]

You cited 4 incidents. I'm pretty sure almost every renegade dialogue option had better writting. And how about:
-pushing a merc through a window
-setting fire to a krogan
-shooting a crate causing it to fall on mercs
-threatening to cut of Kellam's balls and sell them to a krogan
-punching Al-Jilani
-shooting a mech with Garrus' sniper

[Ryzaki]

Oh great we have the "paragon choices are all about naivety" going on. I'll show myself out.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Blitzkrieg0811 wrote...

You cited 4 incidents. I'm pretty sure almost every renegade dialogue option had better writting. And how about:
-pushing a merc through a window
-setting fire to a krogan
-shooting a crate causing it to fall on mercs
-threatening to cut of Kellam's balls and sell them to a krogan
-punching Al-Jilani
-shooting a mech with Garrus' sniper

Two more huh?

But first, how do you define better writing?  Violence?

[Seboist]

Smeelia wrote...

Blitzkrieg0811 wrote...

No. I think it's finally time for Renegades to get their comeuppance. Paragon players got severely shafted in ME2. All the coolest cutscenes and all the best lines were renegade, despite the fact that every poll shows that most players aren't renegade. The writting staff needs to balance this in ME3.

That's really a matter of opinion, I like a lot of lines and moments that are Paragon (or at least upper portion of the wheel).  I still like playing Renegade as well, I just happen to think both are quite awesome in their own ways.

Seboist wrote...
The Rachni Queen decision should have factored into whether Wrex would back down on Virmire as well. I found it strange how he just brushes it off like it's no big deal afterwords and then in ME2 completely forgets about it.

Saving the Queen isn't necessarily a negative from the point of view of the Krogan though, it shows you're anti-genocide (something that they're facing) and willing to move on from past conflicts (something the Krogan have plenty of).  Of course most Krogan care more about being all warrior like and good at fighting but even for them killing a trapped creature in an acid bath is probably not going to seem like much of a "victory" or show of strength.

Krogan also believe that strength deserves respect (and loyalty in the case of leaders), Wrex has no reason to believe that you're not strong now (even death doesn't stop you) so he may well believe that your decisions were right (or at least that he should respect your decisions even if he doesn't agree).

Millions of Krogans died to stop the Rachni and you're telling me they'd brush it off as no biggie? Seriously?