347 réponses à ce sujet

[KevShep]

Blitzkrieg0811 wrote...

You cited 4 incidents. I'm pretty sure almost every renegade dialogue option had better writting. And how about:
-pushing a merc through a window
-setting fire to a krogan
-shooting a crate causing it to fall on mercs
-threatening to cut of Kellam's balls and sell them to a krogan
-punching Al-Jilani
-shooting a mech with Garrus' sniper

lol...I do all of this even as a 100% paragon!

Modifié par KevShep, 26 juin 2011 - 10:33 .

[TheRevanchist]

[Kaiser Shepard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I like Tali but something tells me she wouldn't appreciate being rescued at the expense of other people. Quarians are all about self-sacrifice after all.

Because she really showed self-sacrifice when Shepard covered up for her war criminal father, at the expense of the possibly hundreds of families who lost their loved ones on the Alarei.

[Rip504]

Mr GoGeta34 I think you should watch this video,and think about the Idea of Renegade Shepard & Morality.
And your whole quoting Casey Hudson.

www.youtube.com/watch

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
CH:  "It does get into grey areas and more and more we want to try and obfuscate ultimately what is right or
wrong because ultimately Paragon and Renegade is not meant to be 'Good' and 'Evil.'  It's a little bit different where it's a question of 'do you sacrifice anything for the greater good' or are you unwilling to
make certain sacrifices just to justify the end."

GS:  "and then you have to deal with those consequences"

CH:  "that's right"

You do not to seem to "deal with the consequences" to well,do you? Here let me quote you: "The lack of content/Validation isn't a consequence." Then what is it? You killed the queen,now she is dead. No Appearance in ME2. Cause. Killing Queen. Effect-No Queen in ME2. Cause and effect=Consequence. No?
It's not equal. It is,but even so(If that were the case.It is not but if) it is never stated that something HAS to be equal. That's life. It is your opinion. We all agree on more content. So let's leave it at that.

Add more meaningful content to ME3.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I like Tali but something tells me she wouldn't appreciate being rescued at the expense of other people. Quarians are all about self-sacrifice after all.

Because she really showed self-sacrifice when Shepard covered up for her war criminal father, at the expense of the possibly hundreds of families who lost their loved ones on the Alarei.

And to the Tali comment. It isn't about her. It was about an individual Shepard's choice. Tali's opinion doesn't matter in this discussion. Yes it can influence your decision,but letting her die will not be the Best outcome for that individual Shepard. Tali's opinion included or not

Renegades= www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Rip504, 26 juin 2011 - 11:38 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Extra/Exclusive content is the key thing.  A service is never tangible... but nonetheless positive.  I also missed where I was talking about tangible effects... by all means quote me and refresh my memory.

At some point back in the depths of this thread you had said this wasn't about renegades wanting to be praised for politicly incorrect choices.

And services are always tangible. Even when the service is to provide an intangible asset recieving an intangible asset is still a tangible benefit. Any benefit from a mere thank you though is outweighed by the fact that the threat is still there. The Rachni could still be indoctrinated or the rest of civilization could react 'OMG, Rachni!", shoot their fleet on sight and start a new Rachni war anyway, or the Rachni could simply get upset over some future trade or territorial dispute and go back to war again and win this time.

Whether the threat outweighs the value of the promise cannot be known in advance and depends on how you assess the risks.

The Thorian is dead, the threat was Thorian mind control was it not?.  The threat is gone for now unless a new threat rises... but such a threat has not been mentioned, so nothing to report.

That thorian is dead. Its spores live on, hence the side effects. Spores are seeds. There is every reason to believe a new threat could arise from this. Just because that hasn't happened so far doesn't change the fact that we have been warned. Analysis is about observation and interpretation. Reality doesn't hand out text banners explaining itself.

More to the point, if someone handed us something saying 'these people are a major threat, destroy them now' or alternatively 'this condition is definately benign and is going away,' there would be no decisions at all in the game.

In so many words, I said pats on the back aren't necessary to convey a positive aspect to a choice made.  And yes, it's not specifically about people literally saying "Thank you" to Shepard.

But that is all there really has been so far. "Thank you for saving our lives, so we will tell you to your face we think you are a traitor rather than hide from/try to ignore you", "thank you for sparing us, we will help you sometime in the future but won't give you any contact information so any help will still be at our discretion rather than when you feel you need it or what you would like them to send. And again, that is if they show up on our side at all rather than follow a new song from space, maybe 'slightly tart with a hint of lemon' this time.

The Collector base isn't so much a thank you but a no thank you, but from from people who said a momment before 'please do.' Magpies. And again we don't know the real results of keeping the base yet.

How do you know it took a lot of lives to bring down Osama?  The news right?   You hear anything like that for hunting Balak?  On that front, there's nothing to report.

We didn't hear about that mission either before it was successful. The Council has a history of avoiding engagements such as Afghanistan, but we do know from that news report that they are hunting for him. It is a one line news report we get, not a detailed report.

If I feel what way?  That Paragon choices are being favored?  No... I'd do what I'm doing now... making an informal complaint about it and hope that they fix it.

That the thank yous are the reason for making those choices rather than the actual consequences. Or alternatively that lives saved immediately are always more valuable than removing the continuing risks.

Yes, tell me about what you view to be a "more positive outcome" than another.  Assume that both outcomes achieve their basic objective... but now... what makes an outcome more positive or content-filled than another to you?

Put some examples out there and lets look at it... this should be interesting... if you're up to it.

For the record, regarding your last comment... from what I can tell you're not trying to reason with me, you're just arguing... but you can prove me wrong on that...

I am trying to convince you that there are other valid arguements and thus viewpoints than your own, that people having different values does not equate to those people having no values at all.

I consider the best outcome the one that has the best results overall, not merely the immediate obvious results such as saved hostages but the full results both obvious and implied.

[Smeelia]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I like Tali but something tells me she wouldn't appreciate being rescued at the expense of other people. Quarians are all about self-sacrifice after all.

Because she really showed self-sacrifice when Shepard covered up for her war criminal father, at the expense of the possibly hundreds of families who lost their loved ones on the Alarei.

Which also covered up those loved ones having been complicit in war crimes (and treason, something that would put lasting shame on their families).  Even if they wouldn't have been held personally responsible (due to following orders) it still could have had an unfortunate impact for their families.  There were also political considerations like the Quarians admitting what they were doing (which the Geth wouldn't be happy about if they found out) and the possibility of the results driving them to make a decision that they weren't prepared for.

She was willing to be exiled for the good of the fleet, sounds like self-sacrifice to me.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

[quote]Rip504 wrote...

And you still fail to acknowledge you were wrong about the frustration. No you rather explain it to me some more. I acknowledged why you did it.And also acknowledged it was wrong. It seems to me that you are unwilling to see anything else,but what you decide is truth. Why should I read or comment to the rest?[/quote]

It was not an expression of annoyance. It was an expression of me having other things to do. I am done, does not equal frustration. That was your wrong interpretation of my words. Words can have many meanings,more so then just what you say it means. It was my words.[/quote]



OMG LOL.  I am done.  You refuse to see the game is seen from your Shepard's PoV.


....




....

Seriously, this conversation is fruitless if you can't even admit what you did when it's plain as day.  What was the preceding "OMG LOL" for?  The realization of having something else to do hit you that hard?  It shocked you into all caps?  Or perhaps your attention broke sharply after you said "I am done" so that you could focus on accusing me of more stuff that isn't true...  You expressed annoyance... no need to make a big deal out of it.

I have no problem being wrong or corrected... but seriously... here?  You need to be alot more compelling than that. 
You may not have "intended" to be annoyed, most emotions aren't intentional...  come on now...

Moving on: 

[quote]Bioware does not decide what is wright,wrong,good,evil or what your individual best outcome is. The individual player does, People are different. They will always have different opinions. Yours are not always hard facts.[/quote] 

If you truly feel that way, then we definitely need to discuss fundamentals...  I defined what "best" was in the arguement I was making.  Because the word "best" trips you up, I just left it at the definition itself (positive validation, cameos, and extra content for choices).

And yes, Bioware does decide what's right or wrong and good or evil in the games.  They can turn the story however they want.  They make heroes and villains (good guys and bad guys)... to argue against that is simply incorrect.  (The notions of positive validation, cameos, more lives saved, and extra content for Paragon choices over the Renegade ones are not my opinion... they are evidenced hard facts.) 

Example:  Collector Base decision aftermath... your entire squad is against the decision... that's not a "positive" reaction... and to argue that would frankly be silly.

And your only response to points like those boil down to "I don't care about that so it doesn't matter."  I'm sorry but when talking about game content... it doesn't matter how little you feel about them.  If they're extra they're extra.  If they're positive, they're positive. 

And regarding positive and negative... pending some kind of mental disorder, some things will for sure be a positive outcome... while others will for sure be a negative one.  You may "like it"... but that's irrelevant to positive and negative.  You may "like" less content... but that's irrelevant to there being less content.


P.S.  Positive and Negative does not = Right and Wrong.

[Rip504]

See we now know you are unwilling to be wrong,as you continue to deny being wrong about the way you interpreted my words to be wrong. Anything else is now pointless,as you refuse to be wrong even when you are. Telling me how I feel is ignorant. Lol You were/are wrong. Forget the rest I refuse to acknowledge anything you say past this ,as you are now making stuff up out of thin air,and refuse to see the obvious. I just told you,do not correct me on my feelings. What a joke.
I did not express anything,You were wrong,It was a test,an intetional dropping of the line. You failed and continue to show us how hard headed you really are. Admit you were wrong and I may take your further discussion as serious,until then it is a bad joke. I know plenty of people like you,keep talking until you are right,well in this case you will never be right. Nope you are simply wrong,and pushing the issue further while being wrong,and trying to prove otherwise,is funny to me. And shows us exactly what you are doing with the whole Renegade/Paragon Thing. Peace out funny boy.

Edit: Lol I just read the rest of your post. Now you are putting words in my mouth to strengthen your argument? This is a bad joke. Bioware can create a villain. DA orgins had a Villains that some could relate to. I decide what is right/wrong/good/evil. No someone else does not tell me so. Yes Bioware creates content, The obvious bad guy is not what we are talking about. NO choice and outcome. The rest you did make up out of thin air. Wow. Spewing words doesn't help. Respond to what I say. Do not make things up. Really? Quit putting words in my mouth.

Or I will do it for you also. As you do not care about anything other then your PoV. If you think random NPCs are the better outcome,then they are. No one else can think differently. That's not true. I am done having this discussion with you as you will make things up,misinterpret my words.and refuse to be wrong,Even when you obviously are.
It is fast becoming pointless. Do not put words in my mouth. How do you even come up with some of the things you are saying about me? If I didn't say it,do not assume I feel that way. Putting words in my mouth to help you,is the main reason I will no longer take you seriously.

Modifié par Rip504, 26 juin 2011 - 09:11 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

At some point back in the depths of this thread you had said this wasn't about renegades wanting to be praised for politicly incorrect choices.

Positive validation.. it doesn't have to be someone praising Shepard... just "something" showing an upside to making the choice (I personally don't mind the bad ones either... but if the red button consistently gets these outcomes... someone who puts 2 and 2 together will have a deflated choice to make in any given Paragon/Renegade situation).

And services are always tangible.

I don't mean to keep throwing the dictionary around in this thread... but you can't "touch" a service.

Whether the threat outweighs the value of the promise cannot be known in advance and depends on how you assess the risks.

You could say the same thing about the Renegade choice cameo... if it were there...  But only the Paragon choice gets that.  A little extra nugget.

That thorian is dead. Its spores live on, hence the side effects. Spores are seeds. There is every reason to believe a new threat could arise from this. Just because that hasn't happened so far doesn't change the fact that we have been warned. Analysis is about observation and interpretation. Reality doesn't hand out text banners explaining itself.

The spores are the medium through which the mind control occurred.  Could something happen?  Possibly.  Has something happened?  No.  Most victims that suffer mental abuse aren't instantly "all better" just because their attacker is dead... they may be scarred for life... but they're still alive.

More to the point, if someone handed us something saying 'these people are a major threat, destroy them now' or alternatively 'this condition is definately benign and is going away,' there would be no decisions at all in the game.

Good to be cautious, for sure... but still nothing negative to report.

But that is all there really has been so far. "Thank you for saving our lives, so we will tell you to your face we think you are a traitor rather than hide from/try to ignore you", "thank you for sparing us, we will help you sometime in the future but won't give you any contact information so any help will still be at our discretion rather than when you feel you need it or what you would like them to send. And again, that is if they show up on our side at all rather than follow a new song from space, maybe 'slightly tart with a hint of lemon' this time.

Shepard apparently didn't get the same memo you did...  Shepard told the Council that it's good to have them on his side.  He also told Anderson that they were on good terms.  You're the only one being paranoid about that.

The Collector base isn't so much a thank you but a no thank you, but from from people who said a momment before 'please do.' Magpies. And again we don't know the real results of keeping the base yet.

We can call them names... but they still bash the Renegade choice and praise the Paragon one.  Can we atleast acknowledge that much and be on the same page here?  Because it's there... the only thing missing is you agreeing to this point.

We didn't hear about that mission either before it was successful. The Council has a history of avoiding engagements such as Afghanistan, but we do know from that news report that they are hunting for him. It is a one line news report we get, not a detailed report.

We've heard about casualties in Afghanistan before they found bin laden.  If Bioware wanted to report something negative regarding Balak... they could have.  But for now, nothing negative to report.

That the thank yous are the reason for making those choices rather than the actual consequences. Or alternatively that lives saved immediately are always more valuable than removing the continuing risks.

It's not just "thank yous," no "risk" has yielded a negative outcome for being let go in the 2 games released thusfar.  There's either been positive news (and additional content/cameos) or the same/no news at all.  Nothing negative to report. 

I am trying to convince you that there are other valid arguements and thus viewpoints than your own, that people having different values does not equate to those people having no values at all.

I consider the best outcome the one that has the best results overall, not merely the immediate obvious results such as saved hostages but the full results both obvious and implied.

How about this then, which inescapable choices (where you can pick between atleast a Paragon or Renegade choice) thusfar have yielded the most positive validation, cameos, appearances, and npc favor across Mass Effect 1 and 2?  You can break them down into individual sections if you want. 

I'll look forward to your answer.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 juin 2011 - 09:07 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Rip504 wrote...

See we know know you are unwilling to be wrong,as you continue to deny being wrong about the way you interpreted my words to be wrong. Anything else is now pointless,as you refuse to be wrong even when you are. Telling me how I feel is ignorant. Lol You were/are wrong. Forget the rest I refuse to acknowledge anything you say past this ,as you are now making stuff up out of thin air,and refuse to see the obvious. I just told you,do not correct me on my feelings. What a joke.
I did not express anything,You were wrong,It was a test,an intetional dropping of the line. You failed and continue to show us how hard headed you really are. Admit you were wrong and I may take your further discussion as serious,until then it is a bad joke. I know plenty of people like you,keep talking until you are right,well in this case you will never be right. Nope you are simply wrong,and pushing the issue further while being wrong,and trying to prove otherwise,is funny to me. And shows us exactly what you are doing with the whole Renegade/Paragon Thing. Peace out funny boy.

"OMG. LOL.  I am done." (just quoting it again for emphasis)

Sounds to me like you're just making up excuses... or haven't been posting on forums long enough to understand the meaning of such grammar.  Now you're saying it was a "test"?  Then your "test" expressed annoyance... Why does that bother you so much?  Get over it, it's not a big deal.

But if this is your concession... then I accept it, take care.


P.S.  I'm glad we can atleast agree on "more content" and "more meaningful content." 

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 juin 2011 - 09:21 .

[Rip504]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

See we know know you are unwilling to be wrong,as you continue to deny being wrong about the way you interpreted my words to be wrong. Anything else is now pointless,as you refuse to be wrong even when you are. Telling me how I feel is ignorant. Lol You were/are wrong. Forget the rest I refuse to acknowledge anything you say past this ,as you are now making stuff up out of thin air,and refuse to see the obvious. I just told you,do not correct me on my feelings. What a joke.
I did not express anything,You were wrong,It was a test,an intetional dropping of the line. You failed and continue to show us how hard headed you really are. Admit you were wrong and I may take your further discussion as serious,until then it is a bad joke. I know plenty of people like you,keep talking until you are right,well in this case you will never be right. Nope you are simply wrong,and pushing the issue further while being wrong,and trying to prove otherwise,is funny to me. And shows us exactly what you are doing with the whole Renegade/Paragon Thing. Peace out funny boy.

OMG. LOL.  I am done.  Sounds to me like you're just making up excuses... or haven't been posting on forums long enough to understand the meaning of such grammar.  Now you're saying it was a "test"?  Why does that bother you so much?  Get over it, it's not a big deal.

But if this is your concession... then I accept it, take care.

You are wrong and refuse to admit it. It kills the rest of your argument. You will only see it your way. Everyone else is wrong. Even when they are addressing their feelings. Maybe you have not been alive long enough to understand grammar. Words have more then one meaning wow. A game that is meant to be Told from your PoV.Does not mean one thing. What you consider the best outcome for a single choice,others may not. IT is the truth,denying it is pointless.

Nothing in the previous 2 games support your argument. Your are making a stretch and forcing it on us as the only truth. This is not the case. Shepard can be the bad guy. A paragons positive benefits mean nothing to them. They are different.
You continue to misunderstand the Morality system and the way the content works,but tell us we are wrong,and every single word you say is right. Lol That is a bad joke ,that I will no longer take serious,So yea Peace Out.

[FrozenShadow]

I'm not sure about is rewarding necessary. I just want to see how they'll make it profitable to play renegade in ME. Because right now, I don't really see any of the major choices as advantage for renegade. Paragon route looks superficially so much better.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Rip504 wrote...
You are wrong and refuse to admit it. It kills the rest of your argument. You will only see it your way. Everyone else is wrong. Even when they are addressing their feelings.

You're welcome to break down your quote and explain how your true feelings translated to me... but continuing to say "You are wrong" given what's on display here isn't helping you... and only further makes you seem like you've been making excuses on an issue that isn't a big deal.  Take a break/relax/whatever you need to do and we can continue our discussion... otherwise...

This is just a discussion about the Mass Effect series up to this point, not on our own personal views and decisions (trying to be objective).

Take care.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 juin 2011 - 09:32 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Newart wrote...

I'm not sure about is rewarding necessary. I just want to see how they'll make it profitable to play renegade in ME. Because right now, I don't really see any of the major choices as advantage for renegade. Paragon route looks superficially so much better.

Another person who notices this issue.

No one is saying the game sucks because of this issue or that the game isn't fun with this issue... it's just something that (if changed) can make for a more engaging experience for all Shepards (be they Paragon or Renegade).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 juin 2011 - 09:25 .

[Rip504]

Newart wrote...

I'm not sure about is rewarding necessary. I just want to see how they'll make it profitable to play renegade in ME. Because right now, I don't really see any of the major choices as advantage for renegade. Paragon route looks superficially so much better.

 Renegade is a personal choice. A gameplay style. Nothing states there has to be rewards and profits for your actions.Equal to or greater then the other choice. The 2 choices are meant to be different. Kind of defeats the purpose of accepting responsibility for your actions."Deal with the Consequences"(Even though all major events will be imported,and if you can not see the benefits to some of the Renegade choices in ME2,that's your opinion. I disagree. Many things in ME2 can help the Renegade,just as much as the Paragon.)

As we do not know what will happen in ME3,we can not even make a real argument for or against. As nothing in the previous two games prove this. Hinting at something is not proof. The way you interpret what is hinted at,is nothing more then your opinion on the matter.

The game is not about reward and outcomes,It's about Shepard,the Reapers and choice. What you base your choice on, is up to you. If you pick"blue" because you feel it will benefit you more in ME3,that is nothing more then an assumption based on an opinion. Not facts or proof. I also am interested to see how the Renegade playthrough is handled in ME3,but I will not make random accusations based off of what we have seen so far. Nothing hints at the Renegade getting screwed in ME3. That would kind of defeat the entire purpose of the ME series and ME3. I also do not feel this is the case in ME2,as both Shepards acquire their goal, just as simply as the other.

The playthroughs are meant to be different,and they are. Nothing in ME2 or ME1 helped Paragon or Renegade more then the other.It just did not. An appearance isn't some great benefit showing Bioware favors one or the other. Nothing in ME2 supports this. Crying you didn't get what you wanted is what is truly going on here. (I wanted to talk about a dead queen in ME2 with a random pointless NPC.) As Bioware delivered on their promise and I personally feel they did a good job with it. And I expect ME3 to have greater repercussions to our unresolved choices in ME2 be it Paragon or Renegade.

Modifié par Rip504, 26 juin 2011 - 09:57 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I personally expect Paragon and Renegade decisions to have positive validation in Mass Effect 3 (based on Casey Hudson's quote).

I also personally expect some Paragon decisions to finally backfire a little (how much is still uncertain)... but hinted at on twitter... something about "Should've killed me when you had the chance"... though he could've been talking about something else...

All in all, a reason to make a choice based on the situation again... instead of what "side" you want to be on.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 juin 2011 - 09:59 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Positive validation.. it doesn't have to be someone praising Shepard... just "something" showing an upside to making the choice (I personally don't mind the bad ones either... but if the red button consistently gets these outcomes... someone who puts 2 and 2 together will have a deflated choice to make in any given Paragon/Renegade situation).

There are already obvious upsides to paragon choices by their very nature. If you save hostages, the hostages are saved. If you save factory workers, the factory workers are saved. If you save the Council, if you spare someone, they are spared, etc, etc, etc.

The reasons why such decisions are deemed to have turned out better in RL is that the potential for those saved to do something meaningful in their future is deemed to be worth the risks. The renegade position, which is also held by many is that the risks criminals represent can outweigh those benefits. Hence police are authorized to use lethal force within guidelines. Hence swat teams sometimes do go in to try to save some hostages knowing that they will likely not save them all. Hence we on occassion go to war. After 911, there were calls from many to go as far as nuking Afghanistan, literally.

We can never know the full results of our actions. Just because it is a game doesn't mean we get full reports detailing how we really did. Those that we saved are thankful and any criminals we let go are smart enough not to confess to any crimes they commit after they escape. Go figure.

I don't mean to keep throwing the dictionary around in this thread... but you can't "touch" a service.

You keep treating words as only having one meaning.

If someone provides you the service of car repairs, you have a repaired car at the end. If someone teaches you have what you learned from them. Those are 'palpable or concrete' benefits.

You could say the same thing about the Renegade choice cameo... if it were there...  But only the Paragon choice gets that.  A little extra nugget.

The renegade benefits are that you know that the Rachni cannot be indoctrinated or otherwise go to war because they are gone. You know that Shiala can't be re-indoctrinated or sprout as a new Thorian in the Illium spaceport requiring countless more people to be killed. You know that Vido can't lead the blue suns on behalf of a reaper ploy or just as pirates. You know that Balak cannot succeed at another attempt. You don't need cameos to tell you those things, they are self evident.

The spores are the medium through which the mind control occurred.  Could something happen?  Possibly.  Has something happened?  No.  Most victims that suffer mental abuse aren't instantly "all better" just because their attacker is dead... they may be scarred for life... but they're still alive.

For someone who seems to rely on precise definitions so much, you should perhaps look up 'spore' before trying to talk about what they are. Normally they are a type of seed. The alternative defintion is an inert state some bacteria can enter that lets them survive adverse conditions, but that state being inert that definition really doesn't apply.

Good to be cautious, for sure... but still nothing negative to report.

If you refuse to acknowlege warning signs, it would explain why you think paragon decisions are the only way to go.

Shepard apparently didn't get the same memo you did...  Shepard told the Council that it's good to have them on his side.  He also told Anderson that they were on good terms.  You're the only one being paranoid about that.

Anderson was in the room for the conversation. I think you mean Udina? Shepard also buys into TIM's spin tactics so not sure that his judgement means much either.

We can call them names... but they still bash the Renegade choice and praise the Paragon one.  Can we atleast acknowledge that much and be on the same page here?  Because it's there... the only thing missing is you agreeing to this point.

They only do that after one had already advocated the renegade choice (at the time the choice was made). You are looking at the second half ignoring the first.

We've heard about casualties in Afghanistan before they found bin laden.  If Bioware wanted to report something negative regarding Balak... they could have.  But for now, nothing negative to report.

If we only caught one random newsbyte we likely wouldn't have heard about casualties. Casualties are so infrequent that they are considered news when they happen, but don't happen most days.

It's not just "thank yous," no "risk" has yielded a negative outcome for being let go in the 2 games released thusfar.  There's either been positive news (and additional content/cameos) or the same/no news at all.  Nothing negative to report.

The positive news has only been with respect to what we already know (saved people stay saved) other than the Rachni.

How about this then, which inescapable choices (where you can pick between atleast a Paragon or Renegade choice) thusfar have yielded the most positive validation, cameos, appearances, and npc favor across Mass Effect 1 and 2?  You can break them down into individual sections if you want. 

I'll look forward to your answer.

So then this is about validation. Paragon obviously. Saved people are saved, go figure. If that is what you are looking for, play paragon. I thought this was about the best outcomes, not the most socially popular outcomes.

[FrozenShadow]

Rip504 wrote...

Renegade is a personal choice. A gameplay style.

What you base your choice on, is up to you. If you pick"blue" because you feel it will benefit you more in ME3,that is nothing more then an assumption based on an opinion. Not facts or proof. I also am interested to see how the Renegade playthrough is handled in ME3,but I will not make random accusations based off of what we have seen so far. Nothing hints at the Renegade getting screwed in ME3.

The playthroughs are meant to be different,and they are. Nothing in ME2 or ME1 helped Paragon or Renegade more then the other.It just did not.

Alright I you made good posts and I understand what you're saying.

However I'm not accusing that Renegades are fools and they can't possibly win the game. Like you said, we don't know what will happen in ME3 and that's exactly what I want to see.

But to me Paragon options looks more beneficial in ME3. Yes, that's my assumption, which is based on my opinion of what could happen in ME3. That's why most of my Shep's are either Paragon, Paragade/Renegon combinations. But I don't know if Paragon choices are better or even more beneficial. All I know is that saving Rachni Queen or destroying Collectors Base could be my biggest mistakes.

So, personally, I can't see renegade options being really beneficial in ME3. The way I see it, Paragon choices will help you to win the war, but renegade options doesn't really do that. But I want to see how destroying even early stage genophage cure will benefit renegade or how saving Colletors base will benefit you or how killing Wrex or let Council die will benefit you. Because right now, I personally can't see any of these being good choices.

But ultimately it's my personal choice to see that being renegade is not good for me. But I want that BW proves me wrong and shows to me how your previous renegade choices will bear fruit in ME3.

Modifié par Newart, 26 juin 2011 - 10:48 .

[Rip504]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I personally expect Paragon and Renegade decisions to have positive validation in Mass Effect 3 (based on Casey Hudson's quote).

I also personally expect some Paragon decisions to finally backfire a little (how much is still uncertain)... but hinted at on twitter... something about "Should've killed me when you had the chance"... though he could've been talking about something else...

All in all, a reason to make a choice based on the situation again... instead of what "side" you want to be on.

Confused a little by this. IMO this is the way ME3 was always meant to be. So while in-game making decisions I always wonder how they will effect ME3. With some of the choices we made during ME2 , it had my mind running wild.

I never felt that ME2 favored the Paragon for lack of content. I always kind of expected what we got in ME2. Now if ME3 were to "shat" on the Renegade,I would completely feel differently about the entire series. So I guess I have always felt this way,and was giving ME3 the benefit of the doubt, to clean some things up.

I understand wanting to at least see the Human council. They didn't even have to acknowledge I was in the room,I did want to see them,but understood from a story telling PoV why they did not. ME is an RPG to me,and I will continue to see Shepard's story as one I am helping mold. So your personal opinion here and there will help your gameplay/story experience and IMO is meant to.

I have my own personal reasons for why this or that happen. No Queen, I killed her. That is fine with me,but I understand why it is not for you. I just try to look at it from an in-game story telling PoV,to keep my Shepard involved and wrapped up in the individual story.(Given Renegade/Paragon w.e. I'm playing at the moment)Instead of blaming Bioware for something they have yet to finish.

When they say it is Shepard's story,you are meant to decide where that story leads,& how it leads there. It leaves some room open for your opinion and imagination. I use them both during my playthroughs.

I can not agree with Bioware favoring one or the other,as I do not truly feel this way. But I will and always have agreed to more meaningful content. I want 90% of our choices reflected upon in ME3. It will help both playthroughs a great deal. It will give us a great amount of immersion and detail,but some should always be left to your imagination.

Personal reasoning for doing something is a big deal. So leave us with a bit of that,but reveal Tali's face,I have no imagination for Bioware's character design. You design the Characters,Good/Bad guys. You tell me what they look like and how they act,They let me decide from my personal opinion if it looks good or not,If they are truly evil or can I save them etc. Some should always be left up to your Individual Shepard,or we are playing CoD.

Edit:
The small plot events are not enough to base your entire argument on.(IMO) Ps I am not projecting anything. It's Shepard's story. You are the one pushing your Shepard's ideals onto us.

Modifié par Rip504, 26 juin 2011 - 11:45 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

There are already obvious upsides to paragon choices by their very nature. If you save hostages, the hostages are saved. If you save factory workers, the factory workers are saved. If you save the Council, if you spare someone, they are spared, etc, etc, etc.[/quote]

Indeed and all that saving was done without compromising the objective.  Those who are spared have not caused any negative actions to occur (for ME1 and 2).

[quote]The reasons why such decisions are deemed to have turned out better in RL is that the potential for those saved to do something meaningful in their future is deemed to be worth the risks. The renegade position, which is also held by many is that the risks criminals represent can outweigh those benefits. Hence police are authorized to use lethal force within guidelines. Hence swat teams sometimes do go in to try to save some hostages knowing that they will likely not save them all. Hence we on occassion go to war. After 911, there were calls from many to go as far as nuking Afghanistan, literally.[/quote]

911 was definitely a negative outcome for not stopping bin laden sooner.  But no such negative outcome has been presented to justify the Renegade choice in-game as a "just as good" or "equally right" choice. 

[quote]We can never know the full results of our actions. Just because it is a game doesn't mean we get full reports detailing how we really did. Those that we saved are thankful and any criminals we let go are smart enough not to confess to any crimes they commit after they escape. Go figure.[/quote]

You're right, we only know what the games present.. that's what's being talked about.  The game could've presented more... that's all.  Criminals don't have to confess to be implicated.  Still positive payoffs for the Paragon choices thusfar.

[quote]You keep treating words as only having one meaning.

If someone provides you the service of car repairs, you have a repaired car at the end. If someone teaches you have what you learned from them. Those are 'palpable or concrete' benefits.[/quote]
 
If someone teaches you, you do learn from them, but that's not tangible.. you can't "touch" knowledge.  I understand what you meant by it now though.  And to that end, it's like saying you've been given bullets, but you don't know if the gun will misfire yet.  The bullets are still an exclusive positive and the notion of a misfire is only speculation.

[quote]The renegade benefits are that you know that the Rachni cannot be indoctrinated or otherwise go to war because they are gone. You know that Shiala can't be re-indoctrinated or sprout as a new Thorian in the Illium spaceport requiring countless more people to be killed. You know that Vido can't lead the blue suns on behalf of a reaper ploy or just as pirates. You know that Balak cannot succeed at another attempt. You don't need cameos to tell you those things, they are self evident.[/quote]

Except they're not all self-evident.. and even if they are, just to acknowledge the choice in some way (be it a chance encounter or what have you)... the point is to have "some" exclusive content that positively validates the Renegade choice.  The Paragon choice didn't need a cameo either... they could've been surprise help for Mass Effect 3 (or whatever the result may be).  It was Bioware's choice to put it in there... and they could've likewise chosen some content to positively validate Renegade choices too.  If you do one, why not the other?  Only fair.

[quote]For someone who seems to rely on precise definitions so much, you should perhaps look up 'spore' before trying to talk about what they are. Normally they are a type of seed. The alternative defintion is an inert state some bacteria can enter that lets them survive adverse conditions, but that state being inert that definition really doesn't apply.[/quote]

I'm aware... the mind control was organic... it's not like the Thorian used cybornetics. 

[quote]If you refuse to acknowlege warning signs, it would explain why you think paragon decisions are the only way to go.[/quote]

Considering that Renegades also have warning signs (and more of them given their almost total lack of positive validation for choices)... I'm just saying the Paragon one is still favored.


[quote]Anderson was in the room for the conversation. I think you mean Udina? Shepard also buys into TIM's spin tactics so not sure that his judgement means much either.[/quote]

Right, and I was referring to Anderson.  Shepard tells the Council it's good to have them on his side... and he relays to Anderson that he and the Council are on "good terms" (after the council meeting is over).  I don't think Shepard ever truly trusts everything TIM says as much as feeling like there's no other choice (and there wasn't).
 
[quote]They only do that after one had already advocated the renegade choice (at the time the choice was made). You are looking at the second half ignoring the first. [/quote]

I'm not ignoring it just because I bring the other point up.  And it's the fact that they all changed their mind after taking a side previously that further drives the point home regarding Paragon favoritism.  The story shifted to favor the Paragon choice and scold the Renegade one in those epilogue moments.

[quote]If we only caught one random newsbyte we likely wouldn't have heard about casualties. Casualties are so infrequent that they are considered news when they happen, but don't happen most days.[/quote]

It's been 2 years though.

[quote]The positive news has only been with respect to what we already know (saved people stay saved) other than the Rachni.[/quote]

True, and there's also their appearances in the game (even though Renegade Shepard saved people as well)

[quote]
So then this is about validation. Paragon obviously. Saved people are saved, go figure. If that is what you are looking for, play paragon. I thought this was about the best outcomes, not the most socially popular outcomes.
[/quote]

It's about all of it (positive validation, content, cameos, outcomes).  The saved people aren't saved by the choice... they're saved by the outcome to the choice... and consistently so.  That may sound initially wierd but give it some thought.  Intention doesn't gaurantee the end result (only what Bioware dictates).  In making the Paragon choice, successfully with no negative repercussion events or news present afterwards... just more positive ones.

Compared to the Renegade choice, their choices have (consistently) led to negative repercussions and less content (when their story has enough to support the same amount of content as Paragons).  And to restate, Renegades are still heroes... so demonstrating an upside to the Renegade choice shouldn't be so out of the question... let the game actually illustrate something... like they do for the Paragon choice. 

[Rip504]

Newart wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Renegade is a personal choice. A gameplay style.

What you base your choice on, is up to you. If you pick"blue" because you feel it will benefit you more in ME3,that is nothing more then an assumption based on an opinion. Not facts or proof. I also am interested to see how the Renegade playthrough is handled in ME3,but I will not make random accusations based off of what we have seen so far. Nothing hints at the Renegade getting screwed in ME3.

The playthroughs are meant to be different,and they are. Nothing in ME2 or ME1 helped Paragon or Renegade more then the other.It just did not.

Alright I you made good posts and I understand what you're saying.

However I'm not accusing that Renegades are fools and they can't possibly win the game. Like you said, we don't know what will happen in ME3 and that's exactly what I want to see.

But to me Paragon options looks more beneficial in ME3. Yes, that's my assumption, which is based on my opinion of what could happen in ME3. That's why most of my Shep's are either Paragon, Paragade/Renegon combinations. But I don't know if Paragon choices are better or even more beneficial. All I know is that saving Rachni Queen or destroying Collectors Base could be my biggest mistakes.

So, personally, I can't see renegade options being really beneficial in ME3. The way I see it, Paragon choices will help you to win the war, but renegade options doesn't really do that. But I want to see how destroying even early stage genophage cure will benefit renegade or how saving Colletors base will benefit you or how killing Wrex or let Council die will benefit you. Because right now, I personally can't see any of these being good choices.

But ultimately it's my personal choice to see that being renegade is not good for me. But I want that BW proves me wrong and shows to me how your previous renegade choices will bear fruit in ME3.

Agreed,but prove you wrong. Some of these choices are meant to have IDK negative effects, I guess.
Destroying the cure,seems as if (I HOPE) Salarians and Turians maybe,but deff Salarians,should fully back Shepard while crushing the opposition of the Krogan. Some feel as if the Krogan are restored to what they once were,they will revert to their old ways. After the Reaper threat,not during. One day the Krogans may need to expand,because of their reproduction rate,now you have the Krogan Rebellions 2.0. Killing the cure stops this,but deff should help Shepard gain the Salarians or something in ME3. What? I agree, I really couldn't say either,but that is why I am happy I play the game and not write it. Lol

There are benefits to be had,some Shepards may not want/need benefits to win the war. Humanity may stand nearly alone and still overcome this Reaper Threat. We have no idea how we will defeat the Reapers,other races and help may be nothing more then extras. Doesn't make sense now,but could

The Collector base(IMO) seems as if it will backfire either way,as it is a good starting point for Cerberus indoctrination. But who knows.

Well if you have an all Human Council,Humanity now has every benefit that could bring,which could be countless,Intel,weapons,allies,resources.etc.

If you kill Wrex,and destroy the Krogan cure,maybe your anti-alien or Anti-Krogan,or simply think the best solution for the Krogans is to stay the way they are now. The Krogans may indeed help either way,just not personally like Shepard and wipe of a few million Salarians etc or what not. Shepard could still end up having the Krogans help even after Killing Wrex and destroying the Cure. It would be crazy,but Shepard could end the Krogan/Salarian war and a term of surrender or peace is a united Krogan/Salarian force. Salarian Intel with Krogan brute force.

Yes some of these ideas are...(Insert),but are still ideas of how content may still end up helping while handing out different scenarios. Now if you are punished for killing Wrex and destroying the cure,you kind of deserve to be punished by the Krogans,or do you disagree.? I would expect the Krogans to hate Shepard(and maybe Humanity) for these actions(Potentially). But If Shepard can still win the war without the United Krogan,is it really a punishment,or did Shepard get what Shepard wanted. A Krogan species on the brink of extinction? No future threats. No potential Krogan threat could be what some are aiming for,when suppressing a species.

Edit:
The question is what was your reasoning for destroying the Krogan Cure and Killing Wrex?
Was it for potential benefits,without thinking of the consequences,or did you do it because the Krogan are a potential threat,and this is the safe way of dealing with the Krogan? What was your individual reasoning behind it? It effects your interpretation of the outcome. If you do it for help in ME3 and do not get it. Ok. If you do it to eliminate the Krogan threat or just to suppress the Krogan and this happens,well isn't this the effect Shepard was looking for. In some cases yes,but in others where players want help for killing Wrex and Destroying the cure it may not be. Well I ask those players to justify help for killing Wrex and destroying the cure? It doesn't prove blue it better. It proves Shepard may have got what Shepard, wanted depending on your PoV.

Modifié par Rip504, 26 juin 2011 - 11:31 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Rip504 wrote...

Confused a little by this. IMO this is the way ME3 was always meant to be. So while in-game making decisions I always wonder how they will effect ME3. With some of the choices we made during ME2 , it had my mind running wild.

I never felt that ME2 favored the Paragon for lack of content. I was always kind of expected what we got in ME2. Now if ME3 were to "shat" on the Renegade,I would completely feel differently about the entire series. So I guess I have always felt this way,and was giving ME3 the benefit of the doubt, to clean some things up.

Considering that Mass Effect 3 is the last game of the series, I personally wasn't willing to take that chance without voicing some concerns.  And I agree, I also got what I was expecting in ME2 for the Paragon choice... but the Renegade choice felt lighter to me... but for definite (less content) reasons.

I understand wanting to at least see the Human council. They didn't even have to acknowledge I was in the room,I did want to see them,but understood from a story telling PoV why they did not. ME is an RPG to me,and I will continue to see Shepard's story as one I am helping mold. So your personal opinion here and there will help your gameplay/story experience and IMO is meant to.

I personally view Paragon/Renegade as more of a mood that Shepard can be in at any given moment and a choice associated with that mood.  I don't see them as seperate universes... I just think some days or some moments... Shepard's just not in the mood for foolishness... while in others, he's got time to be nice.

I've already experienced and enjoyed the heck out of both Mass Effect games.  I played and beat Mass Effect 2 last year... so now I'm just taking a critical lense to the game and came across a pattern that could weaken my ability to make a choice that delivers an outcome that's not certain. 

If, for example, I wanted to make a choice where I save lives without compromising the objective... I know that the 100% trend is that the Paragon choice will do that.

Conversely, I also know that the 100% trend is that sacrificing anyone to accomplish the objective is never necessary with the Renegade choice... as the Paragon choice can save everyone and still complete the objective... with less lives lost.

Additionally, the 100% trend of letting dangerous individuals go has not resulted in any negative backlash (which makes killing them as a Renegade a bit empty... just because of the lack of 'payoff'/Content... presented by the game)

Those simple statistics really deflated the wieght of choices to me as Mass Effect 3 draws closer to release... and not a trend I want to see continue.

I have my own personal reasons for why this or that happen. No Queen, I killed her. That is fine with me,but I understand why it is not for you. I just try to look at it from an in-game story telling PoV,to keep my Shepard involved and wrapped up in the individual story.(Given Renegade/Paragon w.e. I'm playing at the moment)Instead of blaming Bioware for something they have yet to finish.

I personally always spare the Rachni queen.  That may be surprising to you given my arguements thusfar, but like I said, the issue runs deeper than Paragon/Renegade decisions.  It's adding all of these seemingly small pluses of the Paragon choices compared to the Renegade one.

When they say it is Shepard's story,you are meant to decide where that story leads,& how it leads there. It leaves some room open for your opinion and imagination. I use them both during my playthroughs.

I can not agree with Bioware favoring one or the other,as I do not truly feel this way. But I will and always have agreed to more meaningful content. I want 90% of our choices reflected upon in ME3. It will help both playthroughs a great deal. It will give us a great amount of immersion and detail,but some should always be left to your imagination.

Personal reasoning for doing something is a big deal. So leave us with a bit of that,but reveal Tali's face,I have no imagination for Bioware's character design. You design the Characters,Good/Bad guys. You tell me what they look like and how they act,They let me decide from my personal opinion if it looks good or not,If they are truly evil or can I save them etc. Some should always be left up to your Individual Shepard,or we are playing CoD.

I agree that it is Shepard's story and we do decide by our choices what Shepard does and ultimately what happens in the story.

I do want to stress that I'm not being extreme with this.  To be favored does not mean the other is crap... it just mean one has "more" than the other. 

More npc support (even if they were thinking something completely different moments earlier), the (thusfar) non-need to sacrifice for the greater objective (as a Paragon choice can save the people and still beat the baddie or gain the loyalty... hence the "have cake and eat too" analogy), more cameos from choices made in the past (while Renegades get no such thing and I personally don't feel that killing someone is enough of an excuse), and seeing the Council (to me it's a bit inconsistent with the end of Mass Effect 1 as you think you'd atleast know who the new Council is by the time ME2 comes around... but apparently he was sent to fight geth without ever personally meeting them.. or he met them without us... and that's even worse). 


P.S.  And those trends?  100% fact.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 26 juin 2011 - 11:52 .

[Rip504]

Wow. Yes a mood. Different playthroughs equal different games. Not universes. Shepard's PoV is your PoV. Where do you get these different universes. So all playthroughs exist on one save? No they are different. I have been on here the whole time telling you,you do not have to be Renegade/Paragon to make a choice. Do not try to use my argument against me. I said it first.

No surprise as you stated 20 times you let the Rachni live and you are a Paragon who hasn't played the game in a year. I do not care. What you did.

No one ever said you meant the other is crap. No I said you think Paragons are favored and your reasons are crap.The bottom part after npc's makes little to no sense. That is how you feel. It is your opinion. If Bioware shared it,we would have met the all Human council. Renegades do not worry about saving lives and cameos,that is not the way the Renegade is meant to be played. It has different outcomes. If you want to save lives and have unresolved content do so,As you already play as a Paragon.

You are arguing about Renegade choices and outcome after admitting to playing as a Paragon. You are using a Paragon mindset to justify Renegades. That is not the way it is meant to be.The small plot events are not enough to base your entire argument on. Ps I am not projecting anything. It's Shepard's story. You are the one pushing your Shepard's ideals onto us.

Edit:
So using the Paragon charm on"the blue Asari"(both of them) didn't end up in the potential loss of life. Wrong,they both help to kill others after the Paragon helped them. But that's not part of your 100% facts,so it must not be true,since you are never wrong, I guess having crazy Asari help commit criminal activities after you help them is the best outcome in your opinion.
No it's not 100% fact. Sorry

Modifié par Rip504, 27 juin 2011 - 12:01 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Rip504 wrote...

Wow. Yes a mood. Different playthroughs equal different games. Not universes. Shepard's PoV is your PoV. Where do you get these different universes. So all playthroughs exist on one save? No they are different. I have been on here the whole time telling you,you do not have to be Renegade/Paragon to make a choice. Do not try to use my argument against me. I said it first.

I'm not using that arguement against you.  I'm saying that I view Shepard's choices beyond Paragon/Renegade as just equal options to solve any given scenario.  Where each action is worth thinking about with regards to achieving the objective and being a hero. 

No surprise as you stated 20 times you let the Rachni live and you are a Paragon who hasn't played the game in a year. I do not care. What you did.

Incorrect, I beat the game last year... but I've still been playing it this year.  I am also not a Paragon, I'm a Paragade... got a little of both.  Again, I don't treat Paragon and Renegade like sides of a team where you pick just one and the rest is for another playthrough.

No one ever said you meant the other is crap. No I said you think Paragons are favored and your reasons are crap.The bottom part after npc's makes little to no sense. That is how you feel. It is your opinion. If Bioware shared it,we would have met the all Human council. Renegades do not worry about saving lives and cameos,that is not the way the Renegade is meant to be played. It has different outcomes. If you want to save lives and have unresolved content do so,As you already play as a Paragon.

The trends aren't how I feel, they're what's in the game.  Renegades do worry about saving lives... just not every life all the time (same for Paragons).  And you may want to try to understand those trends first before calling it crap... I'd appreciate that.  Also, again, Renegades are heroes too...

You are arguing about Renegade choices and outcome after admitting to playing as a Paragon. You are using a Paragon mindset to justify Renegades. That is not the way it is meant to be.The small plot events are not enough to base your entire argument on. Ps I am not projecting anything. It's Shepard's story. You are the one pushing your Shepard's ideals onto us.

Incorrect.  I don't play as a Paragon... even though I made an isolated Paragon choice...  Again, I see the choices as moods and judgements that Shepard has... he could do any of them at any moment and it'd still be the same Shepard.

Think about those trends...

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 27 juin 2011 - 12:29 .