426 réponses à ce sujet

[SilentNukee]

By now the ME franchise is well know. The title Mass Effect says enough. Brandname recognition has been established. MaleShep (Is that a better term? - Ghehe) has served his purpose long ago. Using FemShep (Why isn't that sexist?) can only lead to more heads up. I've seen women post here that they didn't know they were able to play as a female PC. ShepLoo on the cover caused that.

This ^ It seems half the people in the FemShep community, never knew they could actually play as a female Shepard until they got to character customization in the game. I only knew of it because I started the game at a later time and saw vids of female Shepards that weren't official BioWare ones. Actually now that I think about it, customization as a whole isn't very marketed...But if you know BioWare, then you'd guess that, but a COD fanboy/girl wouldn't expect it for example.

Come to think of it...As an example, when the GoW3 beta stuff was happening, I clicked for more information on it only because the on the 360 dashboard, there was a picture of a girl holding a gun and it was badass. Then I learned there will be females in GoW3. Yay! (I never payed attention to GoW stuff beforehand.)

So, it does grab at least some people's attention. :3

Modifié par SilentNukee, 17 juin 2011 - 09:27 .

[Jebel Krong]

Fiddles_stix wrote...

With the last item bolded I'm going to go ahead and assume you are a bloke because I know from personal experience I and several of my female friends have bought games because we simply did not want to play as a guy. Just my experience but given some of the market research into why women buy games. FemShep is a fantastic example of women in games being done well (not perfect but good) and seeing her on the cover however small that may seem to you makes an important positive difference to others.

Don't believe me, click the link.

http://www.mindbubbl...ming-women-want

so the fact that the game is a science fiction TPS/RPG where you spend most of your time shooting and/or talking is less of a point than that you can wander around as a woman? really.... if you really judge any game on only that criteria i pity you.

and how many people do you think have that same attitude?

@ silentnuke: so you weren't interested in the concept enough from the start to read any preview where they all mentioned you could play as a woman? why then would the game logically appeal afterwards? again minority within a minority.

btw anya in GOW3 (despite the potty mouth and there are a few more females at last) = awesomesauce. i also edited my previous post in the meantime with a link you should check out for a certain company's advertising/promotional approach.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 17 juin 2011 - 09:31 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Now, if this were an actual debate of substance, I'd painstakingly go through each of the posts, being sure to measure up people's respective arguments.

This is however, the internet. So I'm going to rush in and post something without going through all the other posts, because I can.

Besides, we are arguing over whether a Female protagonist ought to be shown alongside a Male protagonist on the box of a video game.

As a straight male, should I be offended that they display a woman in the promotional material rather than out of sight because it gives off a "mixed message"? Or should I be open to the idea that having a woman on the box alongside a man has no effect on the status of the male nor the actual content in the game and may clear misconceptions about having a Male-only protagonist?

Both seem equally valid standpoints to me. So, I implore you tell me BSN, which is the reasonable position?

Go.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 17 juin 2011 - 09:30 .

[Flashlegend]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Fiddles_stix wrote...

With the last item bolded I'm going to go ahead and assume you are a bloke because I know from personal experience I and several of my female friends have bought games because we simply did not want to play as a guy. Just my experience but given some of the market research into why women buy games. FemShep is a fantastic example of women in games being done well (not perfect but good) and seeing her on the cover however small that may seem to you makes an important positive difference to others.

Don't believe me, click the link.

http://www.mindbubbl...ming-women-want

so the fact that the game is a science fiction TPS/RPG where you spend most of your time shooting and/or talking is less of a point than that you can wander around as a woman? really.... if you really judge any game on only that criteria i pity you.

and how many people do you think have that same attitude?

@ silentnuke: so you weren't interested in the concept enough from the start to read any preview where they all mentioned you could play as a woman? why then would the game logically appeal afterwards? again minority within a minority.

btw anya in GOW3 (despite the potty mouth and there are a few more females at last) = awesomesauce. i also edited my previous post in the meantime with a link you should check out for a certain company's advertising/promotional approach.

I think you're trying to overanalyze something that's just human nature. People like playing characters they can relate to and the easiest/fastest way to relate to a character is by their gender. Simple as that. And despite what you may think, many people do not go and research games they want to play. Many people just look at the game type, cover and then buy games on a whim.

[SilentNukee]

Jebel Krong wrote...

@ silentnuke: so you weren't interested in the concept enough from the start to read any preview where they all mentioned you could play as a woman? why then would the game logically appeal afterwards? again minority within a minority.

btw anya in GOW3 (despite the potty mouth and there are a few more females at last) = awesomesauce. i also edited my previous post in the meantime with a link you should check out for a certain company's advertising/promotional approach.

No, all I knew was the basic stuff that we get told at work to try and get pre-orders on it. I wasn't interested so I didn't look into it further. The girl with the gun got my attention. I did play the first game back in the day a few times, but that's about it. Minority is still a good amount of people, and it won't push the fans away because they just don't care, nor would it push the hardcore fans because they play for the love of the game, as it should be.

You know as a person and a dedicated ME fan that you will get ME3 no matter what, and you're scared that this marketing stagedy might confuse other players...But you have to see the logical points here. It will boost sales up, I guarantee it. Like I said, a minority is still quite a lot of people.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Jebel Krong wrote...

SilentNukee wrote...

Also, I don't think "sexist" is the word you're looking for Sheploo. If that were the case, in your logic, "FemShep" and "ManShep" would also fall into that category.

no - they would be simple adjectives.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

By now the ME franchise is well know. The title Mass Effect says enough. Brandname recognition has been established. MaleShep (Is that a better term? - Ghehe) has served his purpose long ago. Using FemShep (Why isn't that sexist?) can only lead to more heads up. I've seen women post here that they didn't know they were able to play as a female PC until after buying. ShepLoo on the cover caused that.

the brand has been established, but it's still not as well-known (or selling) as certain other franchises, which is a shame because it's undoubtedly better than pretty much any other. using femshep might well attract a few more female players, i don't deny that, but it won't attract more casual players who are FAR larger in number, who would be put off by the diluted advertising message that having both sheps represented will do. realise: advertising is aimed at the lowest common denominator, not the highest, and unfortunately there are a lot more of those than there are at the top.

edit: consider this article and why nintendo have decided to go back to basic white to launch a new console. white, as simple and neutral colour as possible: http://kotaku.com/58...e-for-the-wii-u it's not directly analagous, but it touches on similar things. if you really cared for the franchise, rather than just wanting to have some generic femshep up there "because the men have one", then you'll know what ive been saying is true.

Erm... ShepLoo didn't attract those casual players to ME1 and ME2, did he? If EA wants to attract that group then it needs to create a marketing campaign that specifically targets them. The same goes for female players. Creating a kick ass trailer for the causal gamers does not prevent creating one for FemShep. Mentioning that the game is easy to play helps to attract one group. Mentioning FemShep and customization in interviews helps helps. And so on. In all those situations Mass Effect is still being sold. The goal should be to attract more customers and not less.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 17 juin 2011 - 09:54 .

[SilentNukee]

Flashlegend wrote...


I think you're trying to overanalyze something that's just human nature. People like playing characters they can relate to and the easiest/fastest way to relate to a character is by their gender. Simple as that. And despite what you may think, many people do not go and research games they want to play. Many people just look at the game type, cover and then buy games on a whim.

^ This.

[Massadonious1]

I wonder if Jebel would be as offended if it was Miranda instead of FemShep on the cover.

[Jebel Krong]

Flashlegend wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

Fiddles_stix wrote...

With the last item bolded I'm going to go ahead and assume you are a bloke because I know from personal experience I and several of my female friends have bought games because we simply did not want to play as a guy. Just my experience but given some of the market research into why women buy games. FemShep is a fantastic example of women in games being done well (not perfect but good) and seeing her on the cover however small that may seem to you makes an important positive difference to others.

Don't believe me, click the link.

http://www.mindbubbl...ming-women-want

so the fact that the game is a science fiction TPS/RPG where you spend most of your time shooting and/or talking is less of a point than that you can wander around as a woman? really.... if you really judge any game on only that criteria i pity you.

and how many people do you think have that same attitude?

@ silentnuke: so you weren't interested in the concept enough from the start to read any preview where they all mentioned you could play as a woman? why then would the game logically appeal afterwards? again minority within a minority.

btw anya in GOW3 (despite the potty mouth and there are a few more females at last) = awesomesauce. i also edited my previous post in the meantime with a link you should check out for a certain company's advertising/promotional approach.

I think you're trying to overanalyze something that's just human nature. People like playing characters they can relate to and the easiest/fastest way to relate to a character is by their gender. Simple as that. And despite what you may think, many people do not go and research games they want to play. Many people just look at the game type, cover and then buy games on a whim.

no, thank you - your last point goes back to everything i've been talking about regarding advertising: it's a game, set in space, where you shoot aliens and robots, it is marketed as such - the gender thing only comes into it for a tiny fraction of the audience - so, do you really skew for that fraction, or do you keep continuity and the brand with the shep you designed for that purpose and used for 2 games already, and just happens to be male?

do you really think if they decided you could pick your gender for the next tomb raider game, for example, that this issue would come up?

[Jebel Krong]

Massadonious1 wrote...

I wonder if Jebel would be as offended if it was Miranda instead of FemShep on the cover.

yes. but miranda's a different character, and i am also on the record here regarding how horrible the ME2 boxart was (SE) - that represented everything bad in advertising (bad images, awkward poses) - it looked like a generic fantasy cover, not an epic space-opera. at least with ME3 they've got a proper engine render (same process they use for Gears of war btw - it's all done and posed in-engine, in 3d).

[SilentNukee]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

Fiddles_stix wrote...

With the last item bolded I'm going to go ahead and assume you are a bloke because I know from personal experience I and several of my female friends have bought games because we simply did not want to play as a guy. Just my experience but given some of the market research into why women buy games. FemShep is a fantastic example of women in games being done well (not perfect but good) and seeing her on the cover however small that may seem to you makes an important positive difference to others.

Don't believe me, click the link.

http://www.mindbubbl...ming-women-want

so the fact that the game is a science fiction TPS/RPG where you spend most of your time shooting and/or talking is less of a point than that you can wander around as a woman? really.... if you really judge any game on only that criteria i pity you.

and how many people do you think have that same attitude?

@ silentnuke: so you weren't interested in the concept enough from the start to read any preview where they all mentioned you could play as a woman? why then would the game logically appeal afterwards? again minority within a minority.

btw anya in GOW3 (despite the potty mouth and there are a few more females at last) = awesomesauce. i also edited my previous post in the meantime with a link you should check out for a certain company's advertising/promotional approach.

I think you're trying to overanalyze something that's just human nature. People like playing characters they can relate to and the easiest/fastest way to relate to a character is by their gender. Simple as that. And despite what you may think, many people do not go and research games they want to play. Many people just look at the game type, cover and then buy games on a whim.

no, thank you - your last point goes back to everything i've been talking about regarding advertising: it's a game, set in space, where you shoot aliens and robots, it is marketed as such - the gender thing only comes into it for a tiny fraction of the audience - so, do you really skew for that fraction, or do you keep continuity and the brand with the shep you designed for that purpose and used for 2 games already, and just happens to be male?

do you really think if they decided you could pick your gender for the next tomb raider game, for example, that this issue would come up?

Lara Croft is a CANON character for the Tomb Raider series. "Sheploo" or default Shepard, is NOT canon, and BioWare specifically mentioned this. You cannot compared the two, it just doesn't work that way. That's where this illogical sense comes from...

[Jebel Krong]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Erm... ShepLoo didn't attract those casual players to ME1 and ME2, did he? If EA wants to attract that group then it needs to create a marketing campaigne that specifically targets them. The same goes for female players. Creating a kick ass trailer for the causal gamers does not prevent creating one for FemShep. Mentioning that the game is easy to play helps to attract one group. Mentioning FemShep and customization in interviews helps helps. And so on. In all those situations Mass Effect is still being sold. The goal should be to attract more customers and not less.

that's... not how advertising works. icon shep is just a recognisable window into the universe, a portal if you will. the reason he's fairly generic is because he's an everyman type meant to represent just about anyone, which is apt because that customisation aspect then forms part of the game (including being able to play as a female) - the thing is they don't have to tell you that, because it's not important and it's slef evident once you actually read the back cover/a preview or load the game.

[Jebel Krong]

SilentNukee wrote...
Lara Croft is a CANON character for the Tomb Raider series. "Sheploo" or default Shepard, is NOT canon, and BioWare specifically mentioned this. You cannot compared the two, it just doesn't work that way. That's where this illogical sense comes from...

oh dear god, way to miss the analogy. 

[SilentNukee]

Jebel Krong wrote...

SilentNukee wrote...
Lara Croft is a CANON character for the Tomb Raider series. "Sheploo" or default Shepard, is NOT canon, and BioWare specifically mentioned this. You cannot compared the two, it just doesn't work that way. That's where this illogical sense comes from...

oh dear god, way to miss the analogy. 

I...give up. <_<

[GodWood]

Great, now I have the massive douchebag Sheploo on one side and some random plain Jane on the other.


What about my Shepard Bioware?

[Flashlegend]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

Fiddles_stix wrote...

With the last item bolded I'm going to go ahead and assume you are a bloke because I know from personal experience I and several of my female friends have bought games because we simply did not want to play as a guy. Just my experience but given some of the market research into why women buy games. FemShep is a fantastic example of women in games being done well (not perfect but good) and seeing her on the cover however small that may seem to you makes an important positive difference to others.

Don't believe me, click the link.

http://www.mindbubbl...ming-women-want

so the fact that the game is a science fiction TPS/RPG where you spend most of your time shooting and/or talking is less of a point than that you can wander around as a woman? really.... if you really judge any game on only that criteria i pity you.

and how many people do you think have that same attitude?

@ silentnuke: so you weren't interested in the concept enough from the start to read any preview where they all mentioned you could play as a woman? why then would the game logically appeal afterwards? again minority within a minority.

btw anya in GOW3 (despite the potty mouth and there are a few more females at last) = awesomesauce. i also edited my previous post in the meantime with a link you should check out for a certain company's advertising/promotional approach.

I think you're trying to overanalyze something that's just human nature. People like playing characters they can relate to and the easiest/fastest way to relate to a character is by their gender. Simple as that. And despite what you may think, many people do not go and research games they want to play. Many people just look at the game type, cover and then buy games on a whim.

no, thank you - your last point goes back to everything i've been talking about regarding advertising: it's a game, set in space, where you shoot aliens and robots, it is marketed as such - the gender thing only comes into it for a tiny fraction of the audience - so, do you really skew for that fraction, or do you keep continuity and the brand with the shep you designed for that purpose and used for 2 games already, and just happens to be male?

do you really think if they decided you could pick your gender for the next tomb raider game, for example, that this issue would come up?

That tiny fraction of audience would still = increase in sales. And I don't think by putting a female shepard on a cover beside sheploo would in any way harm sales even if didn't keep with continuity. As for that tomb raider analogy, it's a completely different scenario. The entire Tomb Raider IP is based entirely around lara croft and for that reason has been marketed that way. The Mass Effect franchise has always been about both John and Jane Shepard but until recently marketing has focused on John. My point is, having Jane share one cover(the collector's edition at that) with John isn't going to break sales and is most likely only going to help them. The same is true for having a trailer for Jane. Bioware obviously believes this is true as well since they're going through with this move. If they honestly believed that these actions would harm sales in anyway, then they obviously wouldn't do it even if meant some fans weren't pleased.

Modifié par Flashlegend, 17 juin 2011 - 10:02 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Jebel Krong wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Erm... ShepLoo didn't attract those casual players to ME1 and ME2, did he? If EA wants to attract that group then it needs to create a marketing campaign that specifically targets them. The same goes for female players. Creating a kick ass trailer for the causal gamers does not prevent creating one for FemShep. Mentioning that the game is easy to play helps to attract one group. Mentioning FemShep and customization in interviews helps helps. And so on. In all those situations Mass Effect is still being sold. The goal should be to attract more customers and not less.

that's... not how advertising works. icon shep is just a recognisable window into the universe, a portal if you will. the reason he's fairly generic is because he's an everyman type meant to represent just about anyone, which is apt because that customisation aspect then forms part of the game (including being able to play as a female) - the thing is they don't have to tell you that, because it's not important and it's slef evident once you actually read the back cover/a preview or load the game.

According to you it was important to keep ShepLoo only because:

Jebel Krong wrote...

i don't deny that, but it won't attract more casual players who are FAR larger in number, who would be put off by the diluted advertising message that having both sheps represented will do

But having ShepLoo on it without FemShep didn't do that either. Ghehe.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 17 juin 2011 - 10:01 .

[Kronner]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

But having ShepLoo on it without FemShep didn't do that either. Ghehe.

Adding Shepboob (nice alternative to Sheploo, right?) to the cover (of CE edition, only) won't attract new casual CoD crowd. That should be fairly obvious.

Modifié par Kronner, 17 juin 2011 - 10:04 .

[SilentNukee]

Aww, thank you Fiddles! *Ohm nomnomnom*

[Flashlegend]

Kronner wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

But having ShepLoo on it without FemShep didn't do that either. Ghehe.

Adding Shepboob (nice alternative to Sheploo, right?) to the cover (of CE edition, only) won't attract new casual CoD crowd. That should be fairly obvious.

It probably won't send them running either, so why does it matter at all? I bet someone that knew nothing about Mass Effect would assume it's some important female character in game and wouldn't even care.

edit: missed the CE, anyway, I don't see why anyone is debating the CE to begin with, it won't affect anyone that's on the fence of buying the game.

Modifié par Flashlegend, 17 juin 2011 - 10:08 .

[Jebel Krong]

Flashlegend wrote...

That tiny fraction of audience would still = increase in sales. And I don't think by putting a female shepard on a cover beside sheploo would in any way harm sales even if didn't keep with continuity. As for that tomb raider analogy, it's a completely different scenario.

compared to the sales lost because casual buyers haven't got a clue what they are looking at?  sounds like a fair exchange to me... <_<

Flashlegend wrote...
The entire Tomb Raider IP is based entirely around lara croft and for that reason has been marketed that way. The Mass Effect franchise has always been about both John and Jane Shepard but until recently marketing has focused on John. My point is, having Jane share one cover(the collector's edition at that) with John isn't going to break sales and is most likely going to help them. The same is true for having a trailer for Jane. Bioware obviously believe this is true as well since their going through with this move. If they honestly believed that these actions would harm sales in anyway, then they obviously wouldn't do it even if meant some fans weren't pleased.

no the mass effect IP is based around shepard. not john and not jane. it is one character, just like lara croft. if they suddenly said as it's a re-boot "oh wait now you can play as x-male croft, but it's still the same character" who do you think they'd still use in the advertising? game-wise it wouldn't make any difference, and who knows maybe you'd get a few more sales from casual who don't like playing as women? yet the advertising would be consistent because of the iconic representation that everyone knows.

hell, no-one yet knows what femshep is going to even look like - if she's changed a lot from previous "jane" shep, everyone will just say: who's that, well it's not my femshep! so what's the point? BW have gone to all that trouble for nothing AND casual buyers who see this shep in a video/whatever will think "who's that"? too.