232 réponses à ce sujet

[Alex Kershaw]

No chance. Voiced VO means it will never happen again. Same with lengthy companion conversations.

[outlaw1109]

You're not seeing the point. The model exists whether or not you can change the armor. Companions in DA2 are a little different (and beside the point) because I'm not sure if they're a model with armor added on, or if the model is character + armor. The point I'm trying to make is that they don't use different models for each elf. There's one Male Elf model. Just like there's one Human Female model. The head morphs are different, but all of the bodies of a specific race/gender are the same model (the PC uses the same Human Female/Male [respectfully] model that non-companion NPC's use.)

Modifié par outlaw1109, 18 juin 2011 - 10:03 .

[Zanallen]

outlaw1109 wrote...

You're not seeing the point. The model exists whether or not you can change the armor. Companions in DA2 are a little different (and beside the point) because I'm not sure if they're a model with armor added on, or if the model is character + armor. The point I'm trying to make is that they don't use different models for each elf. There's one Male Elf model. Just like there's one Human Female model. The head morphs are different, but all of the bodies of a specific race/gender are the same model (the PC uses the same Human Female/Male [respectfully] model that non-companion NPC's use.)

That is true with Origins, but not DA2 and I would like to keep it that way for DA3. I want my companions to have unique bodies and if the companions do, I want my PC to have one as well.

[outlaw1109]

Even in DA2, FemHawke had the same body as the rest of the human females.

I think that *certain* companions had unique character models, but aside from that...Merril's head is just as disproportionate as the rest of the elves.

"While it might appear to run on a new engine, Dragon Age 2 employs an evolved version of Origins' Eclipse engine (now called the Lycium engine internally)."

 
It's the same engine with improvements, so you're not going to see to great of difference between the two games in terms of how things run.

Not saying it wouldn't be nice to have unique bodies, but I am saying that it wasn't done in either title save for MAYBE a couple of companions (thinking of Bethany and how she was Embellished.)

Modifié par outlaw1109, 18 juin 2011 - 10:27 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Morroian wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In a game where the PC doesn't need to attract followers, or influence people's decisions, I think they could handle disparate races with exactly the sort of approach they used in DAO - a handful a throwaway lines.

What would be the point of doing that if it is essentially irrelevant?

How do you possibly get to that conclusion?

That it doesn't affect the game's reponses does not mean that it's irrelevant.  Playing different races might greatly affect the player's decision-making process.  The roleplaying experience might be very different, even if the game reacts in exactly the same way.

It's your reactions that matter, not the game's.

[Pasquale1234]

outlaw1109 wrote...

You're not seeing the point. The model exists whether or not you can change the armor. Companions in DA2 are a little different (and beside the point) because I'm not sure if they're a model with armor added on, or if the model is character + armor. The point I'm trying to make is that they don't use different models for each elf. There's one Male Elf model. Just like there's one Human Female model. The head morphs are different, but all of the bodies of a specific race/gender are the same model (the PC uses the same Human Female/Male [respectfully] model that non-companion NPC's use.)

And the point I'm trying to make is that if you could have changed companion armors in DA2, they would have needed to model:

Male Dwarf + each type of armor you could put on Varric
Isabela + any type of armor you could put on her
Female Elf + any type of armor or robe you could put on Merrill
Male Elf + any type of armor you could put on Fenris
etc.

I would be the first to admit that I don't know squat about the engine they are using - but I do know that some animation engines have required that you first create a mesh that is the shape of the overall object, and then put a skin, which is an image, on top of it.

If the engine they are using allows you to combine meshes, essentially putting any type of armor mesh onto any type of body model on the fly, then no prob.

Otherwise -
They cut down on the modeling they needed to do for DA2 by having unchangeable companion armor.

So the point I've been trying to make all along - is that allowing the PC to be different races would require a lot more modeling work - because every single piece of armor in the game would have to be modeled on each body model to create the mesh of that armor on that body.

If anyone reading this thread has done any mods, maybe they can help clear it up.

[Loc'n'lol]

outlaw1109 wrote...
Yes.  But that has to be done anyway because of dwarf/elf NPC's.  It's not 'extra' to have a PC dwarf with armor over an NPC dwarf with armor.  It's the same model.

So that you can look exactly like every other NPC out there and have 5 different armor models in the entire game ? Awesome.

[Zanallen]

As I said before, the only way I can see Bioware bringing back racial selection is to either get rid of the voiced protagonist (Not happening for DA3) or have a reason for all of the race choices to share the same voice actor. An example would be to have a human, city elf and surface dwarf who all grew up in the same city. They could conceivably have the same voice. I don't see Bioware having multiple VAs per protagonist race choice. Nor do I see them using the same voice for three different races with absolutely no explanation.

[AAHook2]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

AAHook2 wrote...
I mean, this could be me just making generalizations, but if you think I'm wrong, then ask yourself if you had a choice be a Warden, with all their abilities and powers, would you choose to be so at the expense of having to be a Dwarf?

OTOH - some of us who are minorities irl get enough of it irl, and don't especially want to have to experience it in a game.

Two sides to every coin - yanno?

I suppose I do know. I understand for the sake of escapism some might like to shelve that reality, but it doesn't mean it isn't there.
What I guess I'm saying is, that to have that lack of choice to craft a character that you can relate to more or would like to relate to more, this is a shame.
We all know that the heart of RPG is choice.
What if I really can't relate to a tall, lithe person personally?
I'm not particularly tall in real life, nor am I particularly slim.
It doesn't mean I am physically a squat dwarf, but still I can't say that I particularly care for running around as a model-like tall person who is ripped.
I do understand that there are people on the opposite spectrum. They much rather would be a slim, elegant, deadly elf with sharp features. It's something they want to relate to.

It's a bit hard to reconcile the fact that these options were presented to players and then it was taken away simply because a seeming majority overruled the seeming minority.

Which is a shame. Variety is the spice of life, and culling that from gamers...there's something truly wrong about that. It's much like how gaming is being culled down to fast-paced action games and shooters.

People want a tall athletic human warrior or free running human rogue to hack and slash through a 2 hour game. Pity. There's no room for the rest of us in the industry I suppose...

[Atakuma]

Filament wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

No chance. Voiced VO means it will never happen again. Same with lengthy companion conversations.

From what I saw of TW2, that second part does not appear to be true in the least.

Geralt has only one voice, so that means more money for other VOs.

[dcinroc]

If it is a choice between character customization and VO, I'd opt for customization.

Of course, I'm also in the minority that prefers novels to movies and tv.

[Zanallen]

dcinroc wrote...

If it is a choice between character customization and VO, I'd opt for customization.

Of course, I'm also in the minority that prefers novels to movies and tv.

I prefer books to t.v. and movies, but I still like a voiced protagonist. I get annoyed if my PC is silent while just about every NPC has a voice. Especially when the cinematics focus on my PC's face as he states blankly at whoever is talking to him.

[dcinroc]

Zanallen wrote...

dcinroc wrote...

If it is a choice between character customization and VO, I'd opt for customization.

Of course, I'm also in the minority that prefers novels to movies and tv.

I prefer books to t.v. and movies, but I still like a voiced protagonist. I get annoyed if my PC is silent while just about every NPC has a voice. Especially when the cinematics focus on my PC's face as he states blankly at whoever is talking to him.

I think, for me, when I create a character myself, then the emotional cues are internal and I honestly don't even notice the lackof external cues like voice or expression.

It's different for pre-sets and NPCs of course, since I have no window into their souls and I am more dependent on external cues for characterization.

[In Exile]

outlaw1109 wrote...
Really?  You think so?  How many lynch mobs are going on in Iraq?  Because, well, when I went over there, they didn't seem to care too much about a black AMERICAN trying to protect their skin.  Which is my point.  No, they might not know what the Wardens do, but they do know they fight the blight. 

I can't speak to whatever personal experiences you had as part of a military occupation in the 21st century versus a four party vigilante in a rendition of medieval England.

If you want to look at the racial politics from where I hail, just google 'pogrom'. In particular, look at medieval pogroms, to see the kind of moral and ethical boundaries that existed in the period.

Damn.  You REALLY don't need to tell me how racism works.  It sounds like what you're saying is that you want Racial EXTREMISTS to be included in the game.  I can go back to my tour in Iraq for another example:  there are terrorists there, that don't like the American's (infidel) and take advantage of every oppurtunity to kill just one.  Willing to sacrifice hundreds of civilians to kill that one soldier. 

You're still talking about a military occupation in the 21st century.

I'm not saying racial extremism has any place in a game. I'm saying that if you're actually going to go out and create a world that is racially extreme to the extent that (for example) Medieval Europe was, then you're not actually portraying what that racist social outlook means for a minority if you're going to introduce 20th century race relations into the mix.

There are other groups that hate and despise Americans, but instead of strapping a bomb to their chest, they just protest our presence, but they really didn't bother us too much.

Here's a better parallel, if we're talking about America: the kind of attitude that freedom riders met with in the 1960s, and the general racial politics of southern US states in the period.

You can reply if you'd like. I'm finished with this conversation.

Modifié par In Exile, 19 juin 2011 - 06:00 .

[TEWR]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

No chance. Voiced VO means it will never happen again. Same with lengthy companion conversations.

And yet Gaider said they haven't ruled out the idea of Origin stories.

[sphinxess]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

No chance. Voiced VO means it will never happen again. Same with lengthy companion conversations.

And yet Gaider said they haven't ruled out the idea of Origin stories.

I wouldn't hold my breath - and if its done cheaply <same voice for all the races or human slum/human noble> it won't be seen in a good light. Also for different races armor has to be modified - the creation screen has to be modified etc

Modifié par sphinxess, 19 juin 2011 - 09:44 .

[Sidney]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
How do you possibly get to that conclusion?

That it doesn't affect the game's reponses does not mean that it's irrelevant.  Playing different races might greatly affect the player's decision-making process.  The roleplaying experience might be very different, even if the game reacts in exactly the same way.

It's your reactions that matter, not the game's.

While you are right that being an elf caused me to handle certainly things differently you can't expect the world to ignore things. If I played a black character in an RPG 1950's America and I didn't have to cope with the issues of segregation, discrimination and bigotry there's something badly wrong with the game. One thing that creates the illusions of being in the world is that the world reacts to you and your actions.

The simple fact is that as an elf in DA* I don't have to behave in a specific way anymore than a black American in 1950 would react to everything in the same way. The problem for both characters is that the world will react to them in very different ways than human/white character.

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

That is true with Origins, but not DA2 and I would like to keep it that way for DA3. I want my companions to have unique bodies and if the companions do, I want my PC to have one as well.

If DAO/DA2 showed us anything, it's that people don't actually notice variation in body proportions unless it's exaggerated to ridiculous, cartoony levels. As such, the "unique bodies" seem to be of questionable benefit -- most people won't notice them even if they are there, or convince themselves they're seeing differences where the actually isn't any. Making it overall a waste of development time.

(if we want to get technical, there's no actual "body type" in either DAO or DA2. Each piece of equipment --including the underwear or "nude body" appearance-- can be shaped completely different, and that in turn easily leads to persons wearing different armours appearing like they have "different bodies". The armour pieces generally try to match the same outline but the match isn't perfect, already resulting in apparent variations of the body build for the NPCs)

Modifié par tmp7704, 19 juin 2011 - 03:20 .

[TMZuk]

If it is Hawke again, then it is truly Game Over for me!

I want races and freedom. Bioware can keep their protagonists to themselves.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

 Well, if we look at the trend between DA:O and DAII, the cynical response would be that DA3 won't let you even choose gender, let alone race. Probably no class as well. Streamlining is innovative, remember? ;p

[Aelle3]

I was think about this the other day. If BioWare want to keep Hawke as the fully voiced protagonist and main hero of the story, why not let the players create a companion right from the begining of DA3. The two characters could double up as the main heros but leave the focus of the story on Hawke. You would have to manage two characters but you would still get a customizable character (to act as you). People who couldnt give a ha'penny about charcter creation could skip the process, grab a pre-made companion and focus on Hawke.

Im in the pro-choice camp but if they are set on having a fully voiced Hawke, I see this as an option (even if it is an imperfect one).

Also did I hear rumblings of a multiplayer (this could just be an old rumour), because that will need some sort of character creation, unless everyone is happy about a world of Hawkes.

Modifié par Aelle3, 30 juin 2011 - 02:30 .

[Annarl]

Teddie Sage wrote...

I'm one of the "rare" players who actually wants to continue the storyline as Hawke... But I wouldn't say no to this, for new players.

As long as the story is better, I would like to finish Hawke's story.  So your not alone.

[Huntress]

omearaee wrote...

Teddie Sage wrote...

I'm one of the "rare" players who actually wants to continue the storyline as Hawke... But I wouldn't say no to this, for new players.

As long as the story is better, I would like to finish Hawke's story.  So your not alone.

Same here, I want to see what would happen if hawke get to lead mages, or templars ( for others)

Of course they can't forget myHawke Li!.. I'll be really upset if the Li leaves for whatever reason, if a Li has a problem myhawke SHOULD help with it.. am not the kind of person who drops one, to get another because it looks "better".

[Gotholhorakh]

One would hope so, it's one of the things that makes some BioWare RPGs so much fun.

I don't know why racism and real life races need to come into it at all - races in RPGs are really more likely to be species or nationalities, and beyond what the authors decide, there isn't any need for miserable boring real life problems, or the associated whinging and hand-wringing to trouble our enjoyment of fantasy settings.