34 réponses à ce sujet

[Siven80]

Im unsure what to think really.

While theres certainly nothing bad about ME2's level system, i do prefer a more traditional way of levelling in that you gain something after each level rather than pooling your points for 4 levels to get rank 4 of an ability.

Also wasnt that keen on the unlocking of abilitys as it could "waste" 3 points in another ability to unlock the one you want. If the want to keep the unlock method in, atleast make it a 1 point to unlock.

Also it was possible to a spare point or 2 left at the end which were wasted. Thats another thing i wasnt keen on and hope it can be fixed in ME3.

Modifié par Siven80, 17 juin 2011 - 02:53 .

[JockBuster]

OR
It might be back to more like ME1, ONE point at time, and the "up grade cost" = you are @ 2 and the next level is 3 and requires ONE point.
Many complained about having to spend multiple points to upgrade one "level": ie, 1 then 2 then 3 then 4, BIG jumps. ME1 was much more flexible and NO points were wasted/left over. How many talent points & upgrade levels, NO one other than BW knows at this point, and they are not talking, yet.

[Bozorgmehr]

JockBuster wrote...

OR
It might be back to more like ME1, ONE point at time, and the "up grade cost" = you are @ 2 and the next level is 3 and requires ONE point.
Many complained about having to spend multiple points to upgrade one "level": ie, 1 then 2 then 3 then 4, BIG jumps. ME1 was much more flexible and NO points were wasted/left over. How many talent points & upgrade levels, NO one other than BW knows at this point, and they are not talking, yet.

ME1's system is worse than ME2's - sure you could invest all your points, but for what? A 1% increase in damage? That's neglectable and only gives the illusion all skill points matter. In ME1 you also needed ~5 points to really improve an ability.

I also don't thing that's such a bad thing. I usually reserve a couple skillpoints so I can get the power/upgrade/whatever I really want to (the moment they become available) with almost all games using such a system. The problem with ME2 wasn't the 1-2-3-4 system, but the benefits. ME2 Stasis at rank 1 has a 5 second duration; when its effect wears off, enemies also fall to the ground granting another 2 seconds before they are able to fight back again > total duration at rank 1 is ~7 seconds. Investing another 2 or 5 points add little to nothing (2-4 seconds extra duration only). A more balanced system of improvement would solve most issues imo.

[JockBuster]

I said more LIKE ME1 not a return to it. ME1 had 12 talent points to max an ability, ME3 looks to be a lot LESS than 12. ME1 was 'clunkly,' ME2 went totally in the opposite direction, and over simplified things; hopefully, ME3 will get it right and strike a nice balance between the two. ME1 was a learning experience for BW CORP, ME2 was "re-learning" for BW/EA. ME1 had NO in game feedback, ME2 DID have in game player feedback and BW is using THAT data to make ME3 better than either of its predecessors. And yes I have ordered the CE from Origins.com.

Modifié par JockBuster, 17 juin 2011 - 03:55 .

[Ahglock]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

JockBuster wrote...

OR
It might be back to more like ME1, ONE point at time, and the "up grade cost" = you are @ 2 and the next level is 3 and requires ONE point.
Many complained about having to spend multiple points to upgrade one "level": ie, 1 then 2 then 3 then 4, BIG jumps. ME1 was much more flexible and NO points were wasted/left over. How many talent points & upgrade levels, NO one other than BW knows at this point, and they are not talking, yet.

ME1's system is worse than ME2's - sure you could invest all your points, but for what? A 1% increase in damage? That's neglectable and only gives the illusion all skill points matter. In ME1 you also needed ~5 points to really improve an ability.

I also don't thing that's such a bad thing. I usually reserve a couple skillpoints so I can get the power/upgrade/whatever I really want to (the moment they become available) with almost all games using such a system. The problem with ME2 wasn't the 1-2-3-4 system, but the benefits. ME2 Stasis at rank 1 has a 5 second duration; when its effect wears off, enemies also fall to the ground granting another 2 seconds before they are able to fight back again > total duration at rank 1 is ~7 seconds. Investing another 2 or 5 points add little to nothing (2-4 seconds extra duration only). A more balanced system of improvement would solve most issues imo.

I disagree.  Sure ME1 had points that only inreased the damage or duration or whatever but that is the exact same thing ME2 did, what ts the difference in rank 1-3 of warp other than damage, what is the difference between rank 1-3 of lift other than duration?  The only change happened at rank 4.  In ME1 you had 3 level 4 points where a signifigant change happened to your power.  The only thing ME2 added was a so called choice in evolution, but in the majority of cases there wasn't much of a choice.  Heavy pull vs area pull just isn't a choice.

Also I also disagree on whether scaling costs is a bad thing.  A big problem was the 1-2-3-4 system, is it made leveling up pointless for far too many of your levels. Having to save A point is one thing but saving for 4 of 30 levels is just effing lame, especially when you might have to do that twice.  And god the squadies were worse even. Then you get the lame effect of left over points and it is a no fun system all around.  Add in poorly done level scaling and you minds as well just remove the leveling or any kind of advancement system entirely.  Level scaling had issues in ME1 as well, but at least you felt more powerful as you leveled.  

[Lvl20DM]

It's not clear from the screenshots, but it seems like each power is broken down into multiple components (see the screenshot of combat mastery). In that case, you might not have to wait to put points into a power, but instead put points into individual parts of the power (duration, damage, etc.) until it evolves to the next rank.

Both ME1 and 2 had problems with meaningful levels. In ME1, you were giving such small incremental changes to powers/passives that you only noticed the impact over the course of five or more levels. In ME2, you would have some levels with massive impact (evolving to heavy charge, for instance) and others where absolutely nothing changed about the character.

[JockBuster]

Arrow70 wrote...

First let me say I realize that the game has a long way to go in the devolopmental process and that changes may occur...
So lets look at this one...


Liara, in this screenshot is level 18 (which appears to be around halfway so I'd guess that the level cap is around 40)and if we use IF you count ranks in the frist column as one point the second as two and so on, She has 17 points spent already and one left to spend.
snip

It appears that there are 6 progression levels and 5 squadmate powers = 30 upgrade slots, with ONE point (like ME1) required to progress to the next power level. Squadmates normally start with 2 points; 9 points have been used for game level 18 plus 1 point to invest; therefore, squad mates have earned 8 points from lvl 1 to lvl 18? 20 points minimum with 30 slots to invest them in, IF game max is 40 levels? ME1 had 60 levels and ME2 had one-half of that or 30; how many does ME3 have, the average of ME1 + ME2 / 2 = 45? We don't know yet, most likely between 30 (too few) and 60 (too many).

Modifié par JockBuster, 17 juin 2011 - 04:27 .

[JayhartRIC]

I didn't even bother to level in ME1 unless I had gained around 5 levels, so it feels about the same to me.

[Bozorgmehr]

Ahglock wrote...

I disagree.  Sure ME1 had points that only inreased the damage or duration or whatever but that is the exact same thing ME2 did, what ts the difference in rank 1-3 of warp other than damage, what is the difference between rank 1-3 of lift other than duration?  The only change happened at rank 4.  In ME1 you had 3 level 4 points where a signifigant change happened to your power.  The only thing ME2 added was a so called choice in evolution, but in the majority of cases there wasn't much of a choice.  Heavy pull vs area pull just isn't a choice.

The way ME2 implemented the evolution of powers is bad; the way the upgrade system works is not related to that.

The issue with powers such as Pull is closely related to the fact that one point in Pull is almost as good as having Heavy Pull. The way Bioware approaches this in ME3 (according to the demo) is better b/c you can evolve each ability per rank (instead of one evolution per 4 ranks, like in ME2); the option to improve duration, AoE, cooldown, damage, etc does have an impact on gameplay - having to spend more points to upgrade powers (which are on a global cooldown) each rank is only fair imo (otherwise most people are going to use one (fully evolved super) power only for most of the game).

Also I also disagree on whether scaling costs is a bad thing.  A big problem was the 1-2-3-4 system, is it made leveling up pointless for far too many of your levels. Having to save A point is one thing but saving for 4 of 30 levels is just effing lame, especially when you might have to do that twice.  And god the squadies were worse even. Then you get the lame effect of left over points and it is a no fun system all around.  Add in poorly done level scaling and you minds as well just remove the leveling or any kind of advancement system entirely.  Level scaling had issues in ME1 as well, but at least you felt more powerful as you leveled.

In DA:O Bioware uses a straight forward system - one talent point per level gained. Yet I did save talent points to get the stuff I wanted the moment it became available. My mage, for example, had 4 talent points at level 14 (no leveling at level 11 and up). Because when you unlock your second spec - and the best talents in those trees you want them sooner rather than later (I picked AW spec at level 14, invested 3 points in it to get Shimmering Shield and 1 point in Blood Wound).

The option to save skill points occasionally so you can get some really good stuff the next time you gain a level isn't such a bad thing imo - having to level up 5-10 times to evolve an ability once (like ME2) is very bad; leveling up 2-3 times for some serious improvements (assuming you gain a level on a regular basis - like ME2) isn't something I would worry about.

[Ahglock]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

I disagree.  Sure ME1 had points that only inreased the damage or duration or whatever but that is the exact same thing ME2 did, what ts the difference in rank 1-3 of warp other than damage, what is the difference between rank 1-3 of lift other than duration?  The only change happened at rank 4.  In ME1 you had 3 level 4 points where a signifigant change happened to your power.  The only thing ME2 added was a so called choice in evolution, but in the majority of cases there wasn't much of a choice.  Heavy pull vs area pull just isn't a choice.

The way ME2 implemented the evolution of powers is bad; the way the upgrade system works is not related to that.

The issue with powers such as Pull is closely related to the fact that one point in Pull is almost as good as having Heavy Pull. The way Bioware approaches this in ME3 (according to the demo) is better b/c you can evolve each ability per rank (instead of one evolution per 4 ranks, like in ME2); the option to improve duration, AoE, cooldown, damage, etc does have an impact on gameplay - having to spend more points to upgrade powers (which are on a global cooldown) each rank is only fair imo (otherwise most people are going to use one (fully evolved super) power only for most of the game).

Also I also disagree on whether scaling costs is a bad thing.  A big problem was the 1-2-3-4 system, is it made leveling up pointless for far too many of your levels. Having to save A point is one thing but saving for 4 of 30 levels is just effing lame, especially when you might have to do that twice.  And god the squadies were worse even. Then you get the lame effect of left over points and it is a no fun system all around.  Add in poorly done level scaling and you minds as well just remove the leveling or any kind of advancement system entirely.  Level scaling had issues in ME1 as well, but at least you felt more powerful as you leveled.

In DA:O Bioware uses a straight forward system - one talent point per level gained. Yet I did save talent points to get the stuff I wanted the moment it became available. My mage, for example, had 4 talent points at level 14 (no leveling at level 11 and up). Because when you unlock your second spec - and the best talents in those trees you want them sooner rather than later (I picked AW spec at level 14, invested 3 points in it to get Shimmering Shield and 1 point in Blood Wound).

The option to save skill points occasionally so you can get some really good stuff the next time you gain a level isn't such a bad thing imo - having to level up 5-10 times to evolve an ability once (like ME2) is very bad; leveling up 2-3 times for some serious improvements (assuming you gain a level on a regular basis - like ME2) isn't something I would worry about.

Sure ME3 might handle the leveling opf skills better than either ME1 or 2.  My point was both ME1 and 2 ind of sucked in that area, I think ME1 was marginally better.  As for your next point I agree it is nice to have the option to save points especially when things unlock at level X or something.  I think being forced to save up points to afford a 1 point increase in a power is lame.