18 réponses à ce sujet

[DragonSailor]

Forgive me if this topic has already been discussed, but every time I've played Origins, I can't help but wonder why Cailan sends off Alistair to light the tower. A part of me can't help but see it as coddling and a practical foresight that I am reluctant to give to Cailan because I honestly don't think he's all that clever, but still, it's there. I don't know if it was his plan, but the fact remains that his orders/actions ensured that the royal bloodline would survive in some way. Now, off the top of my head I can't remember any conclusive proof that the two brothers knew each other, but I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't - and if anything Cailan should know about a possible threat to his power.

But back to the original point; Alistair and the hero are sent away from the main action by the king's request, as Duncan puts it. Did Cailan order it to protect Alistair on the off chance something would happen to him or is it simply a case of sending the newbies to do the grunt work?

The more I replay this game, the more I wonder about Alistair's previous life. I would love to know what his relationship with Cailan was; I can't help but see how similar the two are. It's sad, if not for the whole bastard thing, they probably would have been great friends.

[caradoc2000]

I've always thought it was more likely Duncan's idea - that he wanted Alistair safe and that he presented the idea to Cailan.

[DragonSailor]

Hmm. I never thought about it that way, but Duncan does seem like a prudent guy to think of such things. But I also remember Alistair's reaction to seeing Cailan's body in return to Ostagar, and idk, it seemed very close/emotional. It's totally not unreasonable for me to see it more as bros looking out for each other. But then, maybe I'm reading too much into it.

[nos_astra]

Return to Ostagar is notorious for OOC-ness, like Wynne hitting on Alistair in a place where he lost all his friends or Alistair crying over a brother he barely knew and met only twice.

Modifié par klarabella, 17 juin 2011 - 08:26 .

[Wulfram]

I think it's pretty clear that the mission to the tower was supposed to keep him safe. But if Cailan was considering him as a potential heir, you'd have though he'd have left a document recognising him as a son of Maric.

[Sifr]

It seems as thought it were Duncan's idea. From dialogue with him, he knew that the Battle of Ostagar would be dangerous, recognising that Cailan is too eager to wait for reinforcements before charging into battle. He also knew that Cailain wanted to be on the front lines against advice. It seems that he figured that putting Alistair somewhere crucial, but low risk, would be wise if Cailan fell on the field as Alistair is, despite being a bastard, still the closest legimate heir of King Maric.

Alistair also mentions at some point I recall when questioned that he met Cailan once as boys and were introduced, but Cailan didn't seem to notice him and quickly ran off to play "General". So, no, as to Cailan caring much for Alistair and seeing him as his brother... I wouldn't say that was the case.

Alistair however has lost so much of family. First he lost his mother, then his father King Maric died, his uncle Arl Eamon was convinced by his new wife to send him to the Templars, then he lost his surrogate father and his comrades in arms at Ostargar! Then he finally meets his sister and she's completely spiteful and bitter towards him, you can see why he's so down the first part of the game. This is why his nightmare in the Fade manifests as him being "one big happy family, at long last." I think Cailan represented to Alistair all the true family he had left, hence his reaction to seeing his broken body mockingly posed in Ostagar.

So, long digression aside, it was likely Duncan looking out for him.

[Arthur Cousland]

Cailan and Alistair knew about each other, though they didn't speak to each other much. I think it's mentioned in party banter between Wynne and Alistair. When Cailan and Alistair met the one time as kids, Cailan spotted the armory, said "Oooh...swords!", and ran off.

Cailan says that "we should send our best", to make sure that the beacon at the Tower of Ishal is lit. It appeared that Cailan really just wanted someone capable to make sure that the battle went according to plan. I don't think at the time that he was thinking of the battle ending in failure. Duncan mentions that Cailan thinks the grey warden legend makes him invulnerable. Perhaps if Cailan thought that defeat was a possibility, then he would have waited for reinforcements from Redcliffe or Orlais, or at least not been on the front lines.

[Maria13]

Alistair can also identify pretty much with Cailan because of the physical resemblance between them.

[blothulfur]

Cailan was commiting suicide by darkspawn for dishonouring his wife, nearly selling out his country to its greatest enemy and because he could not put an heir on the throne due to sterility. He made sure that the heir to his kingdom was in the company of a born survivor (the warden) and that Alistair had an army to stand at his back in the shape of Arl Eammon whom Cailan did not want at Ostagar for this very reason.

Cailan dreamed of dying a hero who defeated a blight and thus paying for the sins of his all too brief life.

Yeah I know it's horsedung, but it'd be nice if we had all got the gloryhound totally wrong.

[Arthur Cousland]

Arl Howe- "I think as much of Cailan as he thinks at all".

I doubt Cailan was thinking too much about the long term and actually losing to the darkspawn. He just wanted his place in history, defeating the darkspawn alongside the wardens. Afterall, he had no heir, was fighting on the frontlines, and was too impatient to wait for reinforcements.

[blothulfur]

This has always bothered me, how exactly are you supposed to wait for reinforcements when the main body of the horde is coming straight at you, only thing I can think of is to stage a fighting withdrawl into the hinterlands.

It is probably just an oversight by the writers but it bothers me almost as much as Cailan ordering a charge out of a natural bottleneck, so that his men can mix in close melee with the darkspawn and impede Loghains charge into the flanks.

[Arthur Cousland]

I'm guessing that the Ostagar forces may have lured the darkspawn out somewhat as to get the battle started, underestimating their true potential.

It's too bad that the reinforments were unable to come, especially after Riordan mentions that Orlais was prepared to send dozens of wardens to help out along with many more chevaliers. I wonder just how many wardens Duncan had prior to Ostagar? I got the impression that they had around a dozen at most.

[blothulfur]

Might just be those three lads you see in the Aeducan origin, though I should think more by Alistairs reminiscing.

[Arthur Cousland]

Too bad my warden never got to meet Gregoir (the warden) with the big beard. I bet my warden could have out-drank him.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 17 juin 2011 - 11:53 .

[Hammerstorm]

[quote]blothulfur wrote...

This has always bothered me, how exactly are you supposed to wait for reinforcements when the main body of the horde is coming straight at you, only thing I can think of is to stage a fighting withdrawl into the hinterlands.

It is probably just an oversight by the writers but it bothers me almost as much as Cailan ordering a charge out of a natural bottleneck, so that his men can mix in close melee with the darkspawn and impede Loghains charge into the flanks.[/q

To begin with, the advice to wait for reinforcement was probably a proposal that them had discussed many times, even before them gathered the army.

Regard to them assaulted straight into the enemy army could be due to two things.

1, they would not give the enemy a chance to take shelter in the ruins when Loghains forces would attack in the back.

 2, that their forces are not trained to stand still and take the hit from the enemy, because they are not equipped with either large shields or pol arms.

Do not know if it was so the creator was thinking or if I just think too much.:D

Modifié par crazycohnny, 27 mai 2012 - 08:44 .

[grey_wind]

There are hints later on in Origins that imply Cailan was a lot smarter than he appeared; most of the time his silly attitude was just a facade to keep morale up. Wynne also suggests that Cailan was fully aware his battle against the Blight was likely a suicide mission (which he probably went through with to buy Ferelden time to unite to face the Darkspawn).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

grey_wind wrote...

There are hints later on in Origins that imply Cailan was a lot smarter than he appeared; most of the time his silly attitude was just a facade to keep morale up. Wynne also suggests that Cailan was fully aware his battle against the Blight was likely a suicide mission (which he probably went through with to buy Ferelden time to unite to face the Darkspawn).

I'd gathered that from what I'd read of the DLC, yes... but it makes no sense.

I mean, yeah, it's difficult to actually be as dumb as Cailan acts, but even assuming he was aware that he was getting himself killed, why would he sacrifice himself to buy time? There's expendable people for that. And if he knew he was going to die, why wouldn't he make it clear who everyone was supposed to listen to afterwards? You know, to avoid the civil war that made the Warden's (and technically Loghain's) job a lot harder.

[grey_wind]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

There are hints later on in Origins that imply Cailan was a lot smarter than he appeared; most of the time his silly attitude was just a facade to keep morale up. Wynne also suggests that Cailan was fully aware his battle against the Blight was likely a suicide mission (which he probably went through with to buy Ferelden time to unite to face the Darkspawn).

I'd gathered that from what I'd read of the DLC, yes... but it makes no sense.

I mean, yeah, it's difficult to actually be as dumb as Cailan acts, but even assuming he was aware that he was getting himself killed, why would he sacrifice himself to buy time? There's expendable people for that. And if he knew he was going to die, why wouldn't he make it clear who everyone was supposed to listen to afterwards? You know, to avoid the civil war that made the Warden's (and technically Loghain's) job a lot harder.

It's more likely that Cailan's plan involved both his and Loghain's forces sacrificing themselves to push back the Darkspawn long enough for Ferelden to unite before they could do any real damage. Unfortunately, Loghain backed out and the Darkspawn advanced quickly. And if Cailan isn't fighting with his forces when he's sending the entire army to suicide, he comes across as weak and cowardly, especially for such a young man.
As to succession, it's possible he knew Eamon would push for Alistair (which is why he's sent to light a torch) or perhaps he hoped Anora would remain queen. He hadn't produced an heir so he may have believed the succession crisis could have been handled by capable people like Eamon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

grey_wind wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

There are hints later on in Origins that imply Cailan was a lot smarter than he appeared; most of the time his silly attitude was just a facade to keep morale up. Wynne also suggests that Cailan was fully aware his battle against the Blight was likely a suicide mission (which he probably went through with to buy Ferelden time to unite to face the Darkspawn).

I'd gathered that from what I'd read of the DLC, yes... but it makes no sense.

I mean, yeah, it's difficult to actually be as dumb as Cailan acts, but even assuming he was aware that he was getting himself killed, why would he sacrifice himself to buy time? There's expendable people for that. And if he knew he was going to die, why wouldn't he make it clear who everyone was supposed to listen to afterwards? You know, to avoid the civil war that made the Warden's (and technically Loghain's) job a lot harder.

It's more likely that Cailan's plan involved both his and Loghain's forces sacrificing themselves to push back the Darkspawn long enough for Ferelden to unite before they could do any real damage. Unfortunately, Loghain backed out and the Darkspawn advanced quickly. And if Cailan isn't fighting with his forces when he's sending the entire army to suicide, he comes across as weak and cowardly, especially for such a young man.
As to succession, it's possible he knew Eamon would push for Alistair (which is why he's sent to light a torch) or perhaps he hoped Anora would remain queen. He hadn't produced an heir so he may have believed the succession crisis could have been handled by capable people like Eamon.

That makes slightly more sense. Not a lot.

People would grumble if he sends an entire army to die without going down with them. On the other hand, it makes absolutely no sense for the king and the [I guess he's the duke] of half the country to die in the same battle, if said battle is supposed to buy time for the country to unite. Not to mention that this relies on Loghain going along with this, and the darkspawn being low enough in number that this is enough. (And it also makes the assumption that having all but two of the Grey Wardens die in the vanguard of the assault doesn't render the Archdemon functionally immortal, but the whole thing where the Grey Wardens are literally neccesary... I'm sure Alistair's internal reaction was something like "If I was reading this in a book, I'd condemn it as an improbable plot-twist.")

And then there's the optimism where Alistair makes it out (if that was the plan,) and the optimism where people actually unite under a bastard-prince. (Or at all, if he wasn't trying for that particular outcome. He knew or should have known what the Bannorn is like. They charge each other's castles with swords drawn over apple trees. Literally.)