217 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

[quote]Admoniter wrote...

[quote]Which brings me to the next point,
This guy he gets it; semi rebounding health is the way to go. Provides enough regen so that you aren't walking around one gentle breeze away from death but will leave you at a disadvantage if you get sloppy and lose too much health which would require a health pack to fix.

And before someone says but I don't want to scour the map for health packs, well then the answer is simple have proper health pack placement in levels. Or have the player start off with a reserve and make them a rare item to find on the field. As with many other things just because ME1 didn't do health packs right doesn't mean that the system is useless and a waste of time.[/quote]
Yeah, you get a clear no from me. To do that you essentially overpopulate the map with health maps, and while this might have been okay originally, it doesn't work with regen as well. Also, with regeneration never stops. Therefore, you can just wait in a corner for 2 minutes until your HP goes to 100%. This could be a game-breaking exploit.

The only way I would accept health packs is as loot and with inventory management, not picking them up and using them on the spot. And I have already explained why I dislike that system.

It may have worked well for ME1, it could have possibly worked OK for ME2, but ME3, with the intense events, and the moment-to-moment gameplay? Nah, I doubt that that would work.

[/quote]Regen doesn't have to be non-stop: you can always make it conditional. The Hero must not be in combat/not crouched/wearing certain item/etc.

You can also set up med-stations to invalidate going back. Instead of X individual med stations/med packs across the level, every med station could draw from a pool of X packs. While a player can draw any number of health packs to their carrying limit from any station, they can only draw a certain number of packs per level: if you draw out at the start, you suck too much and will need to restart the level/tone down difficulty.

Set this stations beside doors the players have to go through: not only is there no hunting, but the stations themselves mark important transition points (if necessary).

[Son of Illusive Man]

Gatt9 wrote...
Personally, I blame it on a key facet of today's Game Industry, the Disposable Game.

Games today are meant to be played, and beaten, inside of a few days to perhaps a week at most. I strongly suspect that this is intentional, in order to move you onto the next $60 expense as fast as possible. They don't want you doing anything that might extend the time you play a game, because if you're playing Game X for 4 weeks, then you're not spending more money.!

That or because they're lazy or prioritize graphics above function and realize they can make the same amount of money with less content.

So you're right about "the disposable game", but it isn't exactly some conspiracy to keep you buying more and more.

[Admoniter]

Phaedon wrote...
a) Med kits add depth? How.
You are thinking about MP-only games too much. You do have a clear location objective in the ME games.
c) Med kits can and have worked in SP games, they just take too much from the action.

a) I have already covered that they incentivize map control, you want a health map available at all times and you want to deny the enemy the same oppurtunity. But my real point was not that health packs added depth it was that full rapid regeneration kinda destroyed the very little that was there in the first place.
c) Matter of preference you think they take too much from the action I believe that it is necessary for there to be breaks in the action every now and again.

Eh, I would probably associate the exact opposite to this system...

Hey man I just put 2 and 2 together. The overwhelming majority of games that use a regenerating health system like in CoD or ME2 has the pc made of fine china. And don't get me wrong it makes sense why you would make them so flimsy, if they weren't things would get pretty imbalanced and you could just stroll through everything. But I don't like feeling like my pc has wrapped themselves in paper mache painted it grey and called it armor before running into battle, I want the character ti actually be able to take a hit without getting red jelly speared all over my eyes.

Yeah, you get a clear no from me. To do that you essentially overpopulate the map with health maps, and while this might have been okay originally, it doesn't work with regen as well. Also, with regeneration never stops. Therefore, you can just wait in a corner for 2 minutes until your HP goes to 100%. This could be a game-breaking exploit.

The only way I would accept health packs is as loot and with inventory management, not picking them up and using them on the spot. And I have already explained why I dislike that system.

It may have worked well for ME1, it could have possibly worked OK for ME2, but ME3, with the intense events, and the moment-to-moment gameplay? Nah, I doubt that that would work.

No suprises there. Ok, couple of things first, how do you get litter the map with health packs from proper health pack placement? Not once did I say just throw health packs around willy nilly, your projecting your worst case scenario arguement here mate. Too many health packs is a bad thing you have no arguement from me there but I never wanted it to be like that in the first place.

Second you do understand the concept of semi rebounding health do you not? Because from everything you have written down it seems like you don't. Allow me to enlighten you... with semi rebounding health you can only regenerate so much typically between 1/3 - 1/4 of your health. Reach went with the 1/3 method where your health after regenerating damage is in one of three states blue(yellow)/orange/red. On your own you will regain only 1/3rd of your health no more no less. You can go from yellow to blue just fine on your own, but without a med pack you will be stuck in orange or red. I don't see how this is a problem?

I'm perfectly fine as health packs functioning as loot in action games it is the superior method IMO, so no arguement there.

And why wouldn't it work in ME3? You admit that a system could work in ME2, do you honestly think that BW will stray too far from the pacing they have established  in ME2? Also the action packed moment to moment sort of stuff just seems like buzz words to me, I'm very sceptical that it will be paced the way you think it is. Beyond that even during battles there are moments where popping a hologrpahic painkiller is a good idea. Plus with these new cover moves there are many tactical options available to you. And once again action needs breaks just about every game ever made does this to some degree, even ME2 does this; you rarely find games that just constantly bombard you with action non stop, and for good reason. I 'm positive that BW will be playing it safe on this one. I see no problem with a system like what Dean suggested being implimented and I don't see why you would think it won't work.

Modifié par Admoniter, 18 juin 2011 - 11:26 .

[Zaxares]

I personally preferred the health and defenses system from ME1, but I can live with the ME2 system. Here's how I would like to see it:

1. Every enemy has Health. Health no longer regenerates, either for you or your opponents except for certain races like Krogan and Vorcha. To restore health, you need to use medi-gel. Certain armor upgrades or class powers may grant health regeneration, however.

2. Some enemies have Armor. Just like in ME1, armor functions as a straight integer reduction of how much damage you take. Certain powers such as Warp or Incinerate can destroy armor, making it easier to damage tough foes. Armor does not regenerate while in combat unless renewed with special powers such as Fortification.

3. Most enemies have Shields (or kinetic barriers). Just like in ME1, shields automatically regenerate over time, even while in combat, while certain powers or upgrades can renew shields automatically. Shields protect you from projectile weapons and explosions, but not from melee attacks, fire attacks, or chemical weapons.

4. Biotic enemies have Barriers. Barriers serve two functions; they add to their Shield defenses, but Barriers also give biotics a chance to resist the effects of other biotic powers targeted against them. For example, a biotic uses Pull on a group of enemies. The common grunts and the YMIR mech are automatically affected by the Pull (although the Pull has much reduced effect and duration against the YMIR due to its sheer mass), but the enemy Biotic resisted the Pull due to her Barriers (and taking off a certain amount of the Barriers in the process). Shields/Armor etc. provide no protection against biotic powers.

This makes Biotics the quintessential crowd controller in battle, and a reason to tie in with the whole "OMG, they've got a Biotic with them!" feeling that seems to show up so often in lore. Biotics are rare, and are the reason why Asari soldiers are so feared in battle.

To counteract the fact that biotics have just gotten a MAJOR power boost, new armor upgrades can be included in the game that provide a chance to resist biotic powers (in-built miniature mass effect field generators that automatically activate to counter biotic powers when the suit's computer detects them etc). Perhaps passive class powers can also grants resistance to biotic powers. Most enemies will not have such upgrades, but elite or boss characters certainly might.

[REgentleman]

It could be because I've spent too much time playing TF2, but I might prefer a system with some health pickups than total health regen. Full regen doesn't trivialize the action completely with the right AI, and it didn't completely in ME2, but I agree with some other users that it becomes an impediment to fun when balance demands that in order for the enemy to be a threat, your dude has to be too weak to take a couple blows even at full health. Without health regen, shooters can feel like giving and taking territory fluidly when done well, but with too much regen, it either feels like you're too good, or like you're forced into near-stationary turtling, bleeding people out until you have the room to step out of ze designated cover area (again, it was possible to play ME2 without this getting out of hand, but it was rarely that I had to think very hard about my positioning or where to keep watch).

I wonder how things would go if regen was restricted to certain classes again.

[lazuli]

REgentleman wrote...
I wonder how things would go if regen was restricted to certain classes again.

It never was.  All classes and squadmates had access to armor mods that trumped every other armor mod in the game because they provided health regeneration.  To me, this is proof enough that you can't straddle the fence on health regeneration.  If the game provides both options, players will seek out the best and ignore the rest.

[REgentleman]

Meant to edit, not counting the regen mods. x[ Which, you're right, were a bit too good, and which I considered an obvious pick when the armor had more than one mod slot available.

Modifié par REgentleman, 19 juin 2011 - 01:56 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

Never understood why the game needs both regenerative shields and health.

Use the shields as a regenerative - if they goes down you get body wound that will cripple you in some way (unless you use a medigel).

Armor will lessen the impact of the body wound.

There.

[Rensafari]

If they could somehow have enemy AI unable to detect Shepard when he breaks LOS during a fight and maneuvers around the map I wouldn't have any problems with a non-regenerating health system. Thing is I'm not sure how difficult something like that would be to write into enemy AI or if it would trivialize the whole enemy teamwork thing the ME3 dev team is pushing as a major factor of gameplay. Plus I would rather have them working on other things instead of fooling with something that's fine as is.

As it stands, it wouldn't increase difficulty at all, it would just add in exasperation. The regenerating health system is something adopted by many games because it works. It allows for more fluid gameplay, greater flexibility in movement around the map and more experimentation during combat that doesn't end in a game over screen. (Unless you're fighting cheap Russian snipers or brute chieftains armed with fuel rod cannons...)

[Haventh]

I love the regenerating health thing. I think it makes the game more constant fun, and i also love the blood platter thing or veins on screens, makes it easier for me to know when to take cover.   Without any of this, for me, ME 2's fun level would drop a lot.  

[REgentleman]

Making the enemy AI stop tracking the player perfectly when they lose LOS is a very common game design choice I would think that would open up more variety in gameplay than the decision on health.

Regenerating health done carefully isn't the end of my world, but when it gets balanced by Shepard being too weak to stand up to more than 2 seconds of direct fire, it sure feels like it restricts options to me. It varies by implementation, but sometimes I feel like while implementing regenerating health, the devs then go "Ok, since no damage is a permanent setback, to compensate we have to make sure that you're going to get hit and HAVE to lie low long enough for your health to recharge." I don't like being focused on by near omnipotent enemies such that I can't really make a power play without being forced into a cycle of trading hits and regenerating.

Also, health packs can encourage wild plays, too- I might try to make a ballsy charge through fire in the hope of making it to a pack, buying the time to bring the opposition down as I do my best to abuse LOS to cut off their fire. Regen itself doesn't completely discourage me from doing something like that, but the balancing act is often such that it's almost certain that I'm not going to be doing it on my own time, that I'll have to hunker down and waste a bit of time doing nothing.

If I were feeling more callous I might argue that regen makes me get away with lazy decisions that work because I can turtle my way through waves, rather than trying to figure out a way to avoid getting hit at all, but nobody really ever wins that argument

Modifié par REgentleman, 20 juin 2011 - 01:07 .

[Inutaisho7996]

Tripedius wrote...

I so totally agree. When his shields are down a well placed shot should be able to kill Shep in one go. So that a headshot or one straight through the heart would be fatal immediately. Health should not recharge and medigel should be very limited and not be applicable in the middle of battle. Also death = death, so no reloading after you die. Games these days are way to easy.

And you should have remember to eat and drink. And it should take five hours real time to fly somewhere!

[Sierra Crysis]

In my opinion, after freshly playing a new game: Hunted: The Demon's Forge, and drastically missing the regenerating health and feeling the effects of stepping into a new checkpoint with no health potions or jars that may or may not give you one; with enemies that punish you for the slightest mistake.... I just have to say that regenerating health or having mana and a heal spell is just vital to a game's approval in my eyes.

Having regenerating health isn't a design flaw in my eyes at all, it's a mechanic that works in games to yeah, sure, lower the difficulty and frustration... But the same could be said for saving the game any time you want and reloading it if you make a mistake or often checkpoints. While it's not near as difficult at old nintendo games where you die 3 times and have to start all over, and die in one hit.. It makes it alot more enjoyable to me.

What I'm getting at is that, instead of blaming the health regeneration mechanic... Blame the AI that allows you to do it. ME3 has 'said' that it has alot of enemies now that will not allow you to just sit and shoot until everyone's dead like in ME2, so yeah, if you can't sit and regenerate, then there's no issue with difficulty.

You guys are onto something, but I think you're going about solving it in the wrong way.

[Crackseed]

Echoing Sierra again - ME2's flaw for combat was not the regen system. It was that most of the enemy encounters were too easy to control due to abundance of cover and the relatively timid AI outside of Scions/Husks.

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

Timid AI didn't really bother me. It is stupid but abnormally psychic AI that bugged me. For some reason people seem to think that Smart AI are incredibly aggressive and try to fore you out of cover by engaging you at close quarters. To me AI that foolishly advance on your position always paid the price. If I could lure them into a bottleneck then it was like shooting fish in a barrel. I personally prefer that AI would keep their distance but instead of being stupidly brave when I thin out their numbers I would like to see them retreat and regroup. (ambushing)

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

Back to the topic. While I haven't read the article completely, I do agree with it's premise when it comes to gaming.(specifically FPS) I fail to see how this is another pointless debate. or how it relates to "more or less" rpg elements. Video games have gotten progressively easier in the 20+ years that I have been playing them. The average gameplay hours for shooters specifically has been cut in half in the past 3-5 years but that's only part of the problem. Regenerating health is another symptom of this growing problem. The Culprit, as I see it, is the industry condescending to their audience. (much like the film industry and the "mainstream" media) 

I can't say how much I hate regenerating health. Not only does it make gaming easier, it ultimately dumbs down overall combat play. Basically Health regeneration promotes running and gunning instead of actually trying to use you brain. Running and gunning is not the style of gameplay I enjoy it's not really. My only Problem with health packs generally is that in some games you could never carry them with you and that you had to rely on finding them.

[CannonO]

get rid of the cartoon red veins and I will be fine with health regen.

[AlexRmF]

I must say that I liked the ME1 style for regenerating health... if you were a soldier, you could survive the first mission without too much trouble due to your health-regen ability (that compensated for the lack of other useful tricks, like overload, sabotage or throw)
if you were another class, you had to let the first armor upgrade do it's thing and regenerate your health, but in a longer timeframe, adding to the roleplay value.
this was also a good motivation to upgrade your armor and use armor upgrades depending on the class you were playing as (soldiers used shields or some damage reducing upgrades, while others used health regenerating upgrades)
in ME2 that very good system went away and it got replaced by the weird paper shields and use only cover system which made the game feel linear and giving you no sense of danger in many of it's fights (the only times I felt my Shepard was in danger was when fighting Praetorians and YMIR mechs that could close-in on my position)
bottom line... the Mass Effect 2 system needs to be refined and take some of the elements of the first game when it comes to health regeneration