27 réponses à ce sujet

[Shaun2406]

Firstly, I'm not trying to restart the 'paragon vs renegade' debate, just talking about how a certain potential situation in ME3 may be handled given the death of the council at ME1.

I'm aware the choice is 'wrong' from a meta-gaming perspective for anyone apart from a pro-human shepard, but I made it from a role playing perspective (to my Shepard, the risk of the galaxy being wiped out wasn't worth taking to save the council). I have no problem with how the decision played out, I don't want a 'perfect' ME3, I've always preferred a bittersweet ending. However, I do want the opportunity in ME3 when attempting to recruit council races to explain myself from a 'pragmatic' rather than 'pro human' point of view. That is, I would like to see dialogue something like this:

*Shepard has requested the aid of the Turian Fleet in re-taking Earth*

Turian Primarch: "You want us to spend Turian lives to save Earth... You want us to sacrifice our people to save yours? After you so readily allowed the Geth to devastate the Citadel fleet, ordered the Alliance fleet to watch as the Destiny Ascension was destroyed, along with the Council you had sworn to protect? After your species used the opportunity to sieze political control before we'd even finished mourning the deaths of our brethren? You have no shame.

No, we will watch your species burn just as readily as you watched our brothers die. We won't commit our fleet until the Reapers have razed Earth to the ground."

Shepard: "This isn't about Turians and Humans. I didn't delay committing the Alliance fleet at the battle of the Citadel to kill Turians, or to create a politically advantageous situation for humanity. I delayed because the potential pay off of saving the council was not worth the risk of dooming the entire galaxy. Had a Turian fleet been on standby, and the Alliance leadership been in jeopardy, you can be damn sure I'd make the exact same call for the exact same reasons.

I'm not asking for your help to save Earth, or even humanity. I'm asking for your help to defeat the Reapers. I will not ask you to commit your fleet to battle early on the off chance of saving human lives. I will ask you to commit when I am certain we have a good chance of defeating the Reaper fleet, and if that means waiting until 99.9% of Earths population has been wiped out, then so be it. If we arrive in system and find the only way to defeat the Reapers is to burn Earth from orbit, then that is what we will do. I will make the necessary decisions, your excellency, just as I did at the Citadel."

The Turian primarch can then laugh at me and tell me he doesn't care, theres no way he's helping me and I'd be OK with that. I don't expect the Council races to just forgive what I did, once again I don't want a 'butterflies and rainbows' ME3 anyway, I just want a chance to make my case, rather than my Shepard be like "I was just looking out for human interests". I know I know, Biowares probably already got this option in and if they don't, they wont change it now for me, I'm just putting this out there for discussion!

Sorry for the extremely long post, and thanks for reading!

Modifié par Shaun2406, 19 juin 2011 - 02:33 .

[shadowreflexion]

 Very thought provoking on making the dialogue more realistic. Explaining ones actions instead of the simple responses. If the conversations played out like that, BW would not only achieve perfection, but the "bar" that would be set wouldn't even be a bar anymore, it would be destroyed. Everyone else would wait until next gen to even attempt to reach it. 

Honestly though, the work that's required for choices like that alone is not only pushing the envelope, but mailing it. I'd absolutely delve deep into that level of immersion. It wouldn't be game anymore, that would be living in the game.
I commend you for the time it must have taken especially with the what ifs of explaining to a race why they couldn't be saved and utilizing sound reasoning to support it. Like I said, that's a very high bar. Quantum tried to do it with Heavy Rain and the simple nuances of the human spirit was more difficult to capture than they thought. For BW to achieve what you just suggested, they would no longer be a "game" company, they'd be immortal.

Great thread. I'm sure you'll see this edited and expanded upon.

Edit: So what I was actually thinking about as well is the ability to become more involved in the conversations as a whole. Similar with the Para/Rene interupts. It's said that ME 3 will be big and I'm hoping it isn't just on the action scale. Sharing a more human interaction with the ME world is most welcomed. I keep reminiscing over Virmire from ME 1. I would have loved for the crew to come and talk to me over that decision after the mourning period had subsided a bit. That would have been a great opportunity to see how deep the conversations would have gone.

Modifié par shadowreflexion, 17 juin 2011 - 06:11 .

[shadowreflexion]

This is a good topic worthy of a "bump".

[STG]

I did the same thing as OP for same reasons. However the situation now is different. Back in ME we stopped a reaper invasion by making necessary sacrifices but in ME3 the invasion is already under way and unless Earth has a "Reaper Destruction Button" or unless saving it is tactically the best decision to make I don't see why aliens would help us.

[Platform626]

I would like to see how Shepard negotiates with the Batarians after Arrival.

[mulder1199]

i'd like to sum it up quickly

shep to council 'you ever see the seinfeld re-run where george did the opposite of what he would normally'

turian council member 'ah yes, costanza'

shep 'well, i did that, i took what decision that i'd thought you'd make, and did the opposite'

[shadowreflexion]

Platform626 wrote...

I would like to see how Shepard negotiates with the Batarians after Arrival.

Probably with thermals clips. You might even get some support from the sick Batarian from Mordin's loyalty mission.  And of course you could always blackmail Anto from Omega. Seriously though, it will probably be escalated from the Batarian government. It may come down to Anakin Skywalker's "hostile negotiations."

[mulder1199]

shadowreflexion wrote...

Platform626 wrote...

I would like to see how Shepard negotiates with the Batarians after Arrival.

Probably with thermals clips. You might even get some support from the sick Batarian from Mordin's loyalty mission.  And of course you could always blackmail Anto from Omega. Seriously though, it will probably be escalated from the Batarian government. It may come down to Anakin Skywalker's "hostile negotiations."

the sick batarian as well as the batarian you can spare on the way to cure the plague in that mission....

[Rawke]

shadowreflexion wrote...

Platform626 wrote...

I would like to see how Shepard negotiates with the Batarians after Arrival.

Probably with thermals clips. You might even get some support from the sick Batarian from Mordin's loyalty mission.  And of course you could always blackmail Anto from Omega. Seriously though, it will probably be escalated from the Batarian government. It may come down to Anakin Skywalker's "hostile negotiations."

I doubt that will play much of a role considering the fact there's a galactic invasion going on. Would be funny though if there was a Batarian squad of hitmen following Shepard around and appearing in the most unlikely situations trying to kill him.

[shadowreflexion]

Rawke wrote...

shadowreflexion wrote...

Platform626 wrote...

I would like to see how Shepard negotiates with the Batarians after Arrival.

Probably with thermals clips. You might even get some support from the sick Batarian from Mordin's loyalty mission.  And of course you could always blackmail Anto from Omega. Seriously though, it will probably be escalated from the Batarian government. It may come down to Anakin Skywalker's "hostile negotiations."

I doubt that will play much of a role considering the fact there's a galactic invasion going on. Would be funny though if there was a Batarian squad of hitmen following Shepard around and appearing in the most unlikely situations trying to kill him.

A Batarian hitsquad tracking my every move, waiting to ambush me for a wrong they feel I commited out of hatred? You Rawke have just piqued my interest. If that was implemented, with Cerberus after me,galaxy gangs, and the Reapers, battlefields will run red with me enjoying every single second.

[Smeelia]

Rawke wrote...

I doubt that will play much of a role considering the fact there's a galactic invasion going on. Would be funny though if there was a Batarian squad of hitmen following Shepard around and appearing in the most unlikely situations trying to kill him.

Shepard: Oh hey, there's a bathroom in my quarters!  A bathroom filled with angry looking Batarians...

shadowreflexion wrote...

 Edit: So what I was actually thinking about as well is the ability to become more involved in the conversations as a whole. Similar with the Para/Rene interupts. It's said that ME 3 will be big and I'm hoping it isn't just on the action scale. Sharing a more human interaction with the ME world is most welcomed. I keep reminiscing over Virmire from ME 1. I would have loved for the crew to come and talk to me over that decision after the mourning period had subsided a bit. That would have been a great opportunity to see how deep the conversations would have gone.

It'd be great if they did implement this sort of thing.  They didn't really make a big issue of Shepard's death and rebuilding in ME2 and that feels like a missed opportunity and there are other times when a bit more depth of choice wouldn't hurt.

[Shaun2406]

@ Shadowreflexion: Thanks! But you're right, I did get a bit carried away while writing it out... And as for the batarians... I think the Reapers have to go right through Batarian space from 'Arrival' to get to Earth... So I don't think they'll be in ME3 as a cohesive force, more just elements attempting to hunt you down (and you may be given choices as to how to handle Batarian refugees)...

@ STG: I agree with you, unless the Reapers are building something on Earth/in the Sol System that needs to be destroyed (eg something like the mass accelerator that killed the Derelict Reapers) or our means of defeating the reapers is some sort of bomb (so we need to go to Earth where they're all clustered up)... going to Earth doesn't make a lot of sense... But I'm sure Bioware will sort something out!

[ForumPortal]

cool story bro

[Niddy']

The idea of letting beings that have ruled, successfully, for hundreds, if not thousands of years, to be killed off and replaced with humans who've had no experience governing something the size of Citadel Space and the trillions of lives with in it is utter and complete lol.

That's like having a mayor of a town that has a population of a few thousand people becoming the president of Earth.

Modifié par Niddy', 19 juin 2011 - 02:46 .

[IrishSpectre257]

I agree. I let the Council die because I decided the human fleet would need to be at it's best to take down Sovereign, then went on to tell Udina that the galaxy had to be united to stop the Reapers. I really wish the outcome of the choice wasn't so black and white in the first place. Hackett could have been killed saving the Council, for example.

Modifié par IrishSpectre257, 19 juin 2011 - 02:45 .

[Shaun2406]

Niddy' wrote...

The idea of letting beings that have ruled, successfully, for hundreds, if not thousands of years, to be killed off and replaced with humans who've had no experience governing something the size of Citadel Space and the trillions of lives with in it is utter lol.

I'm not saying it turned out well, hell if I'd had the choice I'd have had the council go back to being dominated by the council races who actually knew what they were doing...

Please actually read my whole post before responding. Thanks.

[Shaun2406]

IrishSpectre257 wrote...

I agree. I let the Council die because I decided the human fleet would need to be at it's best to take down Sovereign, then went on to tell Udina that the galaxy had to be united to stop the Reapers. I really wish the outcome of the choice wasn't so black and white in the first place. Hackett could have been killed saving the Council, for example.

That would've been cool, or perhaps Joker (obviously not anymore, Jokers a major character in ME2) but its always easier to make a sacrifice when that sacrifice doesn't have a face (like... well all of the Alliance crewmembers who die)

[Niddy']

IrishSpectre257 wrote...

I agree. I let the Council die because I decided the human fleet would need to be at it's best to take down Sovereign, then went on to tell Udina that the galaxy had to be united to stop the Reapers. I really wish the outcome of the choice wasn't so black and white in the first place. Hackett could have been killed saving the Council, for example.

So you let the enemy destory the greatest asset your side has? Also how better to unite your allies by showing your willing to die to save them?

The Ascension is four times the size of the largest human ship, and boasts a crew of nearly 5,000. It is considered to be the most formidable warship in the galaxy, with heavy kinetic barriers
and powerful weaponry. The Ascension is most likely the Citadel Fleet's
largest ship, as no other Fleet vessels are seen that match it in size.

Smart move letting it be destroyed.

You'll probably regret it in ME3.

Modifié par Niddy', 19 juin 2011 - 02:57 .

[IrishSpectre257]

Niddy', look at it from a role-playing perspective. Shepard has no idea if the human fleet as it is is even capable of taking out Sovereign. Then you lose ships defending the Destiny Ascension, which isn't going to stick around and help out since it is barely holding together, and the Council is still on board. Saving the Council would be pretty meaningless if Sovereign manages to succeed regardless.

I hope I do regret the choice in ME3, would love to feel that effect from my decisions.

Modifié par IrishSpectre257, 19 juin 2011 - 02:59 .

[Shaun2406]

@ Niddy': You're right, it will suck not having the Ascension in ME3, but it was so badly shot up by the time the alliance fleet arrived during the battle of the Citadel that it was not in a position to aid in the destruction of Soveriegn (you'll notice you don't see it in the cutscene when the alliance fleet engages Soveriegn)... Its also likely a significant portion of the crew is dead, as you can see various fires and debris venting into space from the Ascension during the battle.

[ForumPortal]

obvious troll is obvious

Modifié par ForumPortal, 19 juin 2011 - 02:59 .

[Shaun2406]

@ ForumPortal... Please read my post? Do you think I should change the topic name? Does it come across as too... provocative? I'm not bashing people who saved the council or trying to start an argument.

[AtreiyaN7]

It would be interesting to see what happens if you let the Council die in ME1 and how you try to justify it. I wouldn't be surprised if each of the major races shot you down or if you had to overcome some major hurdles to get their help. I've saved them every time in the interests of proving humanity's worth to the other races, but I can also see why people let them die.

[AC5]

That decision is not as easy to defend as you think. Now if you remove the council from the equation and, accept that Sovereign's ultimate goal is to open the Citadel for his fellows then you will see that while Sovereign has no reason to aid the Geth fleet if they come under assault however, Sovereign has every reason to call for their aid if he does. So in effect by bypassing the Geth fleet to avoid a fight with them you will have actually passed up the opportunity to engage a fragmented fleet and, would likely find yourself fighting not only sovereign but the geth fleet as well. Simply put it is better to bring your full strength against pieces of your enemy than allowing them to mass.

As for the usefulness of the Ascension while I believe the FTL drive would completely obsolete the dreadnought in open fleet actions the Ascension would be near indispensable versus a stationary reaper. Also for it's combat effectiveness in the given situation as long as it's attitude thrusters and, main gun are operational it's in good enough shape to fight especially in such dire circumstances and I'm sure I was not the only one that found the Ascension's retreat shocking. Also I was kinda hoping Spectre status gave Shepard the authority to demand the ship stand and fight.

Oh, and I am by no means against being allowed to explain why you did something as I have always found it annoying that renegade Shepard comes off as pointlessly malicious rather then pragmatic but, the problem is not just limited to renegades as paragon Shepard will reapetedly spout blind idealism when the decisions can actually be well grounded in reality.

Modifié par AC5, 19 juin 2011 - 04:33 .

[Shaun2406]

AC5 wrote...

That decision is not as easy to defend as you think. Now if you remove the council from the equation and, accept that Sovereign's ultimate goal is to open the Citadel for his fellows then you will see that while Sovereign has no reason to aid the Geth fleet if they come under assault however, Sovereign has every reason to call for their aid if he does. So in effect by bypassing the Geth fleet to avoid a fight with them you will have actually passed up the opportunity to engage a fragmented fleet and, would likely find yourself fighting not only sovereign but the geth fleet as well. Simply put it is better to bring your full strength against pieces of your enemy than allowing them to mass.

As for the usefulness of the Ascension while I believe the FTL drive would completely obsolete the dreadnought in open fleet actions the Ascension would be near indispensable versus a stationary reaper. Also for it's combat effectiveness in the given situation as long as it's attitude thrusters and, main gun are operational it's in good enough shape to especially in such dire circumstances and I'm sure I was not the only one that found the Ascension's retreat shocking. Also I was kinda hoping Spectre status gave Shepard the authority to demand the ship stand and fight.

I've never actually thought of it like that! I wasn't surprised about the Ascension retreating, but you're right actually, presenting your back to the geth fleet while attacking Soveriegn isn't exactly a great idea... Thanks for pointing that out! I guess it then comes down to a matter of whether or not you think its worth rushing through to destroy Soveriegn at the risk of losing BOTH fleets or taking the time to mop up the geth at the risk of Sovereign opening the citadel relay... Which is a far more balanced choice tactically...

Modifié par Shaun2406, 19 juin 2011 - 04:20 .