388 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamextractor]

I romanced Garrus in ME2 after romancing Kaidan in 1. I consider their relationship not cheating, but pretty much over. All they had was one night together anyway and my Shepard wasn't going to wait around. Pretty much got over the whole Horizon thing, too, so any further apology isn't really needed for her. Wouldn't mind having a deeper conversation with Kaidan though and I hope Kaidan takes rejection well :/. Not sure if I want a Garrus and Kaidan confrontation, that has the potential to feel forced/OOC.

Modifié par dreamextractor, 24 juin 2011 - 03:16 .

[Golden Owl]

Eire Icon wrote...

I know I will, Ash's behaviour still puzzles me everytime I play through ME2 (I always save Ash and let Kaidan die)

Do you think there will be some kind of apology (I know there was an email but to me it dosen't count) or do you believe there was an unkown underlying reason for their behaviour

My Shep romanced Ash in ME1 and Miranda in ME2, and I think the events on horizon and explanation (if any) to them may well determine with whom he bunks down with in ME3

Also I saw from another thread, the word "Cheating is used allot"

After Horizon I certainly considered any previous relationship with Ash as long since gone - along the lines of, just in case theres any confusion, your dumped. Thoughts ?

No....Shep was a douche and didn't really bother to explain to VS what was going on...Shep could have done a much better job....But, also my Shep wasn't romanically involved with his VS, so it may be different for those who were.

[Eire Icon]

laecraft wrote...

VS has nothing to apologize for. They've made their choice. You don't demand an apology from a krogan warlord attacking you because they want to lead their species to glory. You don't demand an apology from mercs attacking you because they want profit. You don't demand an apology from Harbinger - you just shoot at him.

VS showed their true colors on Horizon. It would be unreasonable to demand an apology from the enemy. It would be even more unreasonable to trust the enemy to watch your back.

And sleeping with the enemy would be the very definition of unreasonable, although some might find a measure of thrill in it, I suppose. All the danger of expecting a knife to plunge into your back any moment, and everything. However, I don't see my Shepard risking the fate of the Earth and the entire galaxy for a cheap, fleeting moment of thrill.

Rule #26 of the Evil Overlord:

No matter how attractive certain members of the rebellion are, there is probably someone just as attractive who is not desperate to kill me.

I'm loving this post, I'm guessing your Shepard went the pro-cerberus Renegade path

[Rockworm503]

I don't know what to expect... What I hope for is some dialog that makes it easier to accept the stupid stuff in Horizon.
Why is Elizabeth madly in love with Kaiden and there is no option to run to him like her world is back? She let Ashley died because her love for him made it impossible to consider the other option and she hates herself for it. Why are we acting like seeing him is like seeing the fish sandwich is back on the menu at the deli? And why is he acting like her return is worse than her death? The Cerebrus thing is a weak excuse.
Bad writing and I'm really not expecting much. But if he wants her back he's gonna have to bring something to the table i dunno. Like I said in the other thread she's in love with Jacob too now so even if Kaiden apologizes I can't promise to go back to him. (wow I didn't realize till now just how complicating I made this lol)

[procyon8]

Am I expecting an apology from this random total stranger who decided to ****slap me with a tell-off speech in the middle of a game that I paid 60 dollars to play specifically so I could avoid that kind of bull****? Of course not.

The Horizon scene is an example of a trope that I've been noticing a lot in fiction. I like to call it "The **** Is Always Right" trope. The way the trope works is that a character will be brought into play whose major -- often sole -- purpose is to emotionally abuse or bully one of the protagonists in a story. Instead of this bully character being called out on their actions, the entire story will be warped around justifying everything the bully does, even to the point where the protagonist might look bad as a result.

J.K. Rowling pulled this **** with Snape in Harry Potter. House M.D. does this as a matter of course. Bioware pulled this **** with the Elvis Impersonator/Space Redneck in ME2. And mark my ****ing words, instead of there being an equal exchange between Shepard and the VS in ME3, the whole plot is going to be twisted to prove that the VS was "right" about Cerberus and that Shepard was foolish for not putting loyalty, provincialism and petty bull**** above saving the goddamned galaxy.

It doesn't matter that the VS made false assumptions about Shepard's cooperation with Cerberus in the Horizon scene. It doesn't matter that the VS's complaints about Shepard not contacting them are without merit because one, you have been dead for two years, and two, you have no means of contacting the VS because Anderson refuses to give you the information you need to do so. It doesn't matter that the VS polarizes the issue in the Horizon debate instead of considering that Shepard was probably just exploiting Cerberus for resources that the Alliance wouldn't give him/her -- because Shepard had the foresight to put aside his/her differences with them in the name of a greater good. It doesn't matter that Bioware deliberately rigged the argument in order to allow the VS to win specifically to set the stage for the implementation of this trope.

What the **** does the VS expect Shepard to do? "Ok Elvis/Elly May, I'll completely sever all ties with my only chance of saving the galaxy from the Reapers. I'll give them back the Normandy, tell all of the top specialists I recruited to **** off and go home, send Joker back to Cerberus, and go crawling back to Earth to watch every single member of our species and then the rest of the galaxy be abducted and horrifically mutilated by the Reapers, because it's more morally correct to allow hundreds of billions of people to die because you're too petty and immature to put aside your grudges and your Red vs. Blue horse****. Come here and kiss me, sweet cheeks."

Come ON.

You know what I bet is going to happen in ME3 because of all this? There's going to be ANOTHER confrontation where you're allowed to vent your anger at the VS for hurting your feelings on Horizon, and you know what they're going to say? That you're being oversensitive, immature, and that you need to put aside your differences in the name of saving the galaxy! And it will be another **** Is Always Right scenario where you, as the player, get punched in the face *again*. 

**** the Virmire Survivor. I'll put up with having them in my party in the name of saving the galaxy though, something they seem to be incapable of. EDIT: Hell, I'm not even sure I'd go that far. Why have someone in my party who would only start arguments, trigger love triangles and cause problems for me in general? 

Modifié par procyon8, 24 juin 2011 - 06:46 .

[PMC65]

Horizon was perfect ... it accomplished what Bioware wanted, which was to ****** you off, leave you confused and ready to screw a vorcha if it flirted with you.

The first time I played that scene it was with my Shepard that romanced Ash .. as soon she came around that corner my Shepard was happy! They hugged, he wanted to kiss her ... then the conversation slid down that hill of WTF?

Shepard could not paragon or renegade his way into stopping Ashley's hurt and distrustful responses ... I was thinking "What the hell Shepard? You can talk Saren into shooting himself! Dear gawd, you can BS with the best of them .... what the hell are you doing?" His dialogue choices were stupid and irrational which mirrorred her dialogue ... I mean, how could she be hurt & angry and confused? Shepard was only gone for ... oh, 2 years. Then "Surprise!!!!! I'm home honey! Where's my lovin?" ... Really Shepard?

She saw you die, mourned for two years, doesn't know where you were all that time, probably doesn't know that you asked Anderson about her & where she was (I owe you one Anderson  .. a boot up your ...) and all you got to say to her is "Join me, just like old times!" I was slamming my keyboard down over and over, shaking the screen thinking that like a magic 8 ball a new option would appear .... as she walked away never mind Shepard ... I was pissed!
 
Pissed at her, pissed at him ... just like a real argument with your girlfriend. I wanted to replay the scene to see if I could somehow make him say the right thing ... but nope! Shepard went back to the Normandy, angry at her, angry at himself and out of anger (mixed with desire) he found himself alone with Miranda ... "I'll show you MS. Williams!"

Horizon did what it was supposed to do and it did it well.

Now that he is about to be reunited with the one woman that he loves he doesn't know how to fix this ...  
After all, Ashley doesn't fall in line like everyone else, she doesn't allow him to paragon/renegade her which is not something that Shepard is used to. She has always taken the mickey out of him .. even in ME1. That was part of what he liked about her, her kickback like a shotgun.

Truth be told, they both need to apologize and then (hopefully) make up ... in my game at least.

[Iakus]

PMC65 wrote...

Horizon was perfect ... it accomplished what Bioware wanted, which was to ****** you off, leave you confused and ready to screw a vorcha if it flirted with you.

The first time I played that scene it was with my Shepard that romanced Ash .. as soon she came around that corner my Shepard was happy! They hugged, he wanted to kiss her ... then the conversation slid down that hill of WTF?

Shepard could not paragon or renegade his way into stopping Ashley's hurt and distrustful responses ... I was thinking "What the hell Shepard? You can talk Saren into shooting himself! Dear gawd, you can BS with the best of them .... what the hell are you doing?" His dialogue choices were stupid and irrational which mirrorred her dialogue ... I mean, how could she be hurt & angry and confused? Shepard was only gone for ... oh, 2 years. Then "Surprise!!!!! I'm home honey! Where's my lovin?" ... Really Shepard?

She saw you die, mourned for two years, doesn't know where you were all that time, probably doesn't know that you asked Anderson about her & where she was (I owe you one Anderson  .. a boot up your ...) and all you got to say to her is "Join me, just like old times!" I was slamming my keyboard down over and over, shaking the screen thinking that like a magic 8 ball a new option would appear .... as she walked away never mind Shepard ... I was pissed!
 
Pissed at her, pissed at him ... just like a real argument with your girlfriend. I wanted to replay the scene to see if I could somehow make him say the right thing ... but nope! Shepard went back to the Normandy, angry at her, angry at himself and out of anger (mixed with desire) he found himself alone with Miranda ... "I'll show you MS. Williams!"

Horizon did what it was supposed to do and it did it well.

Now that he is about to be reunited with the one woman that he loves he doesn't know how to fix this ...  
After all, Ashley doesn't fall in line like everyone else, she doesn't allow him to paragon/renegade her which is not something that Shepard is used to. She has always taken the mickey out of him .. even in ME1. That was part of what he liked about her, her kickback like a shotgun.

Truth be told, they both need to apologize and then (hopefully) make up ... in my game at least.

FIrst, I don't play games to get p*ssed off.  Especially games that force you to wait two years for any kind of payoff for it.

 Second, let me repost something I wrote a few days ago

I have no problem with them being suspicious of Cerberus and its motives
I have no problem with them being worried about Shepard working for them
I have no problem with them being unable to be recruited.

I do have a problem with the terrible, terrible dialogue (on both sides) which appeared to be specifically designed to drive a wedge between Shepard and the VS.

It's the sheer artificial nature of the scene.  Being raised from the dead and seeing a friend (possibly a lover) for the first time in two years, "It's been too long, how ya been?"  Really?  Someone who's already seen and helped the Commander commit mutiny to save the galaxy now thinking he/she is a traitor?  Really?  

Horizon was not a natural reaction, it was a pure DM Fiat that the VS would be angry with you would come to the wildest, most extreme conclusion possible about Shepard.  

Not wanting the VS around for ME 2 is one thing.  But this was just straight up bad writing.  It did the job all right.  The same way you can perform surgery with a rusty kitchen knife.  You could do it. badly...

[PMC65]

@iakus ... not trying to tell you how to feel about the scene, just sharing my viewpoint on it.

We both appear to hate the scene so we agree there. We just have different end responses to it.

[Iakus]

That we do. I can say in all honesty that the Horizon scene seriously dampens my desire to ever play ME2 again.

[procyon8]

PMC65 wrote...

Horizon was perfect ... it accomplished what Bioware wanted, which was to ****** you off, leave you confused and ready to screw a vorcha if it flirted with you.

That's what I meant -- it's a cheap, hackneyed, blatantly obvious, manipulative way to try to make you act in a way that will allow them to use the "The **** Is Always Right" trope in ME3, and it's unfair and hopeless. The only purpose of that sub-arc is to force Shepard to look like a jackass when there's no justifiable reason for that to happen. It's like their equivalent of putting Scrappy in Scooby-Doo -- irritating and unnecessary. It's a way of punching the player in the face, and that's just not right. 

It's especially unfair for people like me that just jumped in the fray in ME2. How do you think I feel -- I, as a new player who has no idea who the hell these people are or what significance they have to the plot, to just have one of them walk up and start screaming at me for no reason with no way to rectify the situation? Only to find out later that the default settings you're given FORCE you to sleep with this jackass even though you might not (I sure as hell don't) want to, which will automatically trigger a love triangle in ME3 from which I now have no escape? And that we have to spend cash to either buy ME1 or get that downloadable comic book thing online in order to prevent this when we should've been able to pick our settings and avoid all this crap in the first place? 

Knowing how it's all going to go down from my knowledge of story arcs and TV tropes is making me seriously consider not buying ME3.

Modifié par procyon8, 24 juin 2011 - 08:03 .

[Terastar]

I also find it funny that the VS is suppose to feel comforted by your response that for 2 years Cerberus has been rebuilding you! The same organization that did god awful things. So the VS is suppose to think that you are you and in complete control of your actions. Why would they think that?

[Melra]

I am not expecting an apology or explanation. I am expecting them to forget about it and tag along.

[naledgeborn]

I don't I expect an apology from Kaidan. Maybe my canon Shepard can a apologize to him.
He was like, "LOLZ U LOZER!!! I'm with Cerberus now. Deal with it. DEUCES BEYOTCH!!"

I do expect an apology from Ashley though since she is Shep's LI in my alternate canon.

[78stonewobble]

IMHO... What happens on Horizon stays on Horizon.

Crappy dialogue included.

[PMC65]

procyon8 wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Horizon was perfect ... it accomplished what Bioware wanted, which was to ****** you off, leave you confused and ready to screw a vorcha if it flirted with you.

That's what I meant -- it's a cheap, hackneyed, blatantly obvious, manipulative way to try to make you act in a way that will allow them to use the "The **** Is Always Right" trope in ME3, and it's unfair and hopeless. The only purpose of that sub-arc is to force Shepard to look like a jackass when there's no justifiable reason for that to happen. It's like their equivalent of putting Scrappy in Scooby-Doo -- irritating and unnecessary. It's a way of punching the player in the face, and that's just not right. 

It's especially unfair for people like me that just jumped in the fray in ME2. How do you think I feel -- I, as a new player who has no idea who the hell these people are or what significance they have to the plot, to just have one of them walk up and start screaming at me for no reason with no way to rectify the situation? Only to find out later that the default settings you're given FORCE you to sleep with this jackass even though you might not (I sure as hell don't) want to, which will automatically trigger a love triangle in ME3 from which I now have no escape? And that we have to spend cash to either buy ME1 or get that downloadable comic book thing online in order to prevent this when we should've been able to pick our settings and avoid all this crap in the first place? 

Knowing how it's all going to go down from my knowledge of story arcs and TV tropes is making me seriously consider not buying ME3.

Good story telling is part manipulation ... drawing the person in to feel fear, anger, glee, etc. The fact that Horizon did not make me feel "good" does not make the event "bad" to me. It was appropriate ... I was invested in that relationship and feeling "pissed" was great because it means, like Shepard, I felt powerless and angry.

It's no different when I have to do Samara's LM and let Morinth sit on my lap .. dear gawd NO!!!!! The whole mind meld process freaks me to begin with ... and then comes Morinth. Dear Jesus! .. absolute DREAD! She is like a cobra ... and I never relax the whole time I am with her ... ever. Does that make that mission awful? No! I like that it draws me in.

Don't get me started on the husks & scions

I personally, and this is just me, love a good story/play/movie/game that can make me happy, sad, pissed, etc along with the character.

If you didn't play ME1 then I would think, I could be wrong (probably), that the scene would fall a little flat because there wasn't that history ... therefore it would have just been more a head scratcher? My Shepard had spent months with her, slept with her and loved her going into ME2 ... then kapow! It stung ... brilliant. I can't wait for ME3 and having Ash back on the Normandy ...

but in real life, I've had relationships that made Horizon look like a romantic weekend .... sooooo

[78stonewobble]

PMC65 wrote...

procyon8 wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Horizon was perfect ... it accomplished what Bioware wanted, which was to ****** you off, leave you confused and ready to screw a vorcha if it flirted with you.

That's what I meant -- it's a cheap, hackneyed, blatantly obvious, manipulative way to try to make you act in a way that will allow them to use the "The **** Is Always Right" trope in ME3, and it's unfair and hopeless. The only purpose of that sub-arc is to force Shepard to look like a jackass when there's no justifiable reason for that to happen. It's like their equivalent of putting Scrappy in Scooby-Doo -- irritating and unnecessary. It's a way of punching the player in the face, and that's just not right. 

It's especially unfair for people like me that just jumped in the fray in ME2. How do you think I feel -- I, as a new player who has no idea who the hell these people are or what significance they have to the plot, to just have one of them walk up and start screaming at me for no reason with no way to rectify the situation? Only to find out later that the default settings you're given FORCE you to sleep with this jackass even though you might not (I sure as hell don't) want to, which will automatically trigger a love triangle in ME3 from which I now have no escape? And that we have to spend cash to either buy ME1 or get that downloadable comic book thing online in order to prevent this when we should've been able to pick our settings and avoid all this crap in the first place? 

Knowing how it's all going to go down from my knowledge of story arcs and TV tropes is making me seriously consider not buying ME3.

Good story telling is part manipulation ... drawing the person in to feel fear, anger, glee, etc. The fact that Horizon did not make me feel "good" does not make the event "bad" to me. It was appropriate ... I was invested in that relationship and feeling "pissed" was great because it means, like Shepard, I felt powerless and angry.

It's no different when I have to do Samara's LM and let Morinth sit on my lap .. dear gawd NO!!!!! The whole mind meld process freaks me to begin with ... and then comes Morinth. Dear Jesus! .. absolute DREAD! She is like a cobra ... and I never relax the whole time I am with her ... ever. Does that make that mission awful? No! I like that it draws me in.

Don't get me started on the husks & scions

I personally, and this is just me, love a good story/play/movie/game that can make me happy, sad, pissed, etc along with the character.

If you didn't play ME1 then I would think, I could be wrong (probably), that the scene would fall a little flat because there wasn't that history ... therefore it would have just been more a head scratcher? My Shepard had spent months with her, slept with her and loved her going into ME2 ... then kapow! It stung ... brilliant. I can't wait for ME3 and having Ash back on the Normandy ...

but in real life, I've had relationships that made Horizon look like a romantic weekend .... sooooo

I agree that for a story to be good it has to be emotionally engaging. However I felt nothing towards ashley, kaidan or shephard in that instance.

I felt angry at BW about doing such a shoddy job at telling the story. Giving me non choices for conversation.

Well I guess I weren't immersed at all due to the poor dialogue. I just couldn't identify with much of that conversation.

[jeweledleah]

procyon8 wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Horizon was perfect ... it accomplished what Bioware wanted, which was to ****** you off, leave you confused and ready to screw a vorcha if it flirted with you.

That's what I meant -- it's a cheap, hackneyed, blatantly obvious, manipulative way to try to make you act in a way that will allow them to use the "The **** Is Always Right" trope in ME3, and it's unfair and hopeless. The only purpose of that sub-arc is to force Shepard to look like a jackass when there's no justifiable reason for that to happen. It's like their equivalent of putting Scrappy in Scooby-Doo -- irritating and unnecessary. It's a way of punching the player in the face, and that's just not right. 

It's especially unfair for people like me that just jumped in the fray in ME2. How do you think I feel -- I, as a new player who has no idea who the hell these people are or what significance they have to the plot, to just have one of them walk up and start screaming at me for no reason with no way to rectify the situation? Only to find out later that the default settings you're given FORCE you to sleep with this jackass even though you might not (I sure as hell don't) want to, which will automatically trigger a love triangle in ME3 from which I now have no escape? And that we have to spend cash to either buy ME1 or get that downloadable comic book thing online in order to prevent this when we should've been able to pick our settings and avoid all this crap in the first place? 

Knowing how it's all going to go down from my knowledge of story arcs and TV tropes is making me seriously consider not buying ME3.

default setting choses VS for you, but it doesn't lock you into romance.  please get your facts straight.  I know that among other lazy things that they did was not differentiating the dialogue much, but you were NEVER FORCED into sleeping with anyone.  if you didn't import from ME1 and started with default ME2 setting - you have no preexisting romances and you have NO love triangles waiting for you in ME3.

and honestly I freaking wish that people would goddamn stop judging characters from their one short and badly written appearance when they haven't even played the first game, chosing to start a TRILOGY in a middle.  your Shepard has a damn history with VS.  even unromanced, you went through a year of searching, fightning together, they supported you in mutiny, not to mention cleaning up after then damn Cerberus for half the game - the fact that was conveniently glossed over in ME2.  

seriously - stop starting the games in the middle and then complaining when you don't understand something and when things seem to be off the wall.  they really aren't, you just missed half the story.  and you know what?  they ARE right about cerberus and if you had known the entire story, by you know starting at the beginning - you would have known that too.  but I suppose the blame for that layes with bioware for both not explaining the plot of the first game well enough (you are not given Cerberus details in genesis either) and allowing players to start in a middle of the trilogy that features the same protagonist (unlike DA2 that has almost non related instalments so its not nearly as bad)

Modifié par jeweledleah, 24 juin 2011 - 10:40 .

[PMC65]

78stonewobble wrote...

I agree that for a story to be good it has to be emotionally engaging. However I felt nothing towards ashley, kaidan or shephard in that instance.

I felt angry at BW about doing such a shoddy job at telling the story. Giving me non choices for conversation.

Well I guess I weren't immersed at all due to the poor dialogue. I just couldn't identify with much of that conversation.

I use to complain about the dialogue until I heard a couple in a heated unscripted argument, thought about some of the arguments that I had been in myself and started laughing. Those made Horizon a frackin' Shakespeare play.

The times that I play with an unromanced Shepard to the VS it does seem a little harder to fall into though. I only seem to lose my reasoning skills with someone I sleep with so ... but I also don't get pissed in those games as well, so I guess it's ok. Just frustrated that my friend won't listen and that my Shepard is slipping in his/her influence skills. "Where is the renegade interupt!" I find myself shouting as Ashley goes off on my femshep .. I just want to backhand her!

Since the scene is suppose to leave Shepard angry and looking at the responses on the forum ... mission succeeded on both Shepard & players. I guess I've just taken the scene as is and let the "pissed off" feeling become part of the connection between Shepard & I ... unfortunately only he got to feel better with Miranda.

The a-hole!  

The scene really is set for lovers not friends when I see it. 

[LessThanKate]

iakus wrote...

FIrst, I don't play games to get p*ssed off.  Especially games that force you to wait two years for any kind of payoff for it.

Then maybe you shouldn't play games that have any focus on story. Or games intended to be divided into parts, because they're bound to make you mad or anxious (since you have to wait for the next part...it WAS planned as a trilogy) always in some way at some point or another. Sure Horizon pissed me off, but I would be even more pissed if everything were picture perfect.  

It's the sheer artificial nature of the scene.  Being raised from the dead and seeing a friend (possibly a lover) for the first time in two years, "It's been too long, how ya been?"  Really?  Someone who's already seen
and helped the Commander commit mutiny to save the galaxy now thinking he/she is a traitor?  Really?  

Horizon was not a natural reaction, it was a pure DM Fiat that the VS would be angry with you
would come to the wildest, most extreme conclusion possible about Shepard.  

Not wanting the VS around for ME 2 is one thing.  But this was just straight up bad writing.  It did the job all right.  The same way you can perform surgery with a rusty kitchen knife.  You could
do it. badly...

I don't think it was about not wanting them, but the point of the sequel was the suicide mission and the VS has to stay alive for the third one. With that in mind, I was easily able to accept the situation, even if I didn't necessarily like it. Defending the VS on Horizon feels like punching a tidal wave, but I was never mad at Ashley or Kaiden. I knew they were both loyal to the Alliance and Shepard's association with Cerberus--especially since TIM was feeding them information--was shifty at best. Of course I was upset that all Shepard's responses were totally thoughtless and inappropriate. I was upset with the immediate shift from hot to cold between the two. Still, I knew it was all planned out and couldn't place all my frustration on them.

As for the VS not trusting Shepard...I simply don't agree, for one. I think the VS trusts that Shepard will do the best they can, but as Ash says in her email, simply cannot go where Shepard is going. I try to look at it from their perspective, since it's so easy to only look at it from Shepard's. Someone you loved/cared for/respected died, and two years pass only for them to come back to life; they don't really explain why, but it involves a terrorist organization. Also, they apparently had time to reacquaint with one or two other friends, but not you. Because they were super busy and you're just not important enough. It's because of all the things you went through that it hurts.

So as far as an apology goes...perhaps an apologizing for the ugliness of the whole Horizon situation is in order, but not apologizing for not joining back up with them at that point. You can disagree and say the alliance with Cerberus was needed, but the VS thought they were doing what they needed to at the time.

I'd say Shepard should apologize as well as the VS. Obviously the whole universe owes Shepard for not believing him/her, but I still don't like this idea that Shepard is this perfect person that everyone must worship. Shepard trots into Mary Sue/Marty Stu territory quite a bit, but he/she is still human and should be able to make mistakes just like every other character.

Modifié par LessThanKate, 25 juin 2011 - 02:00 .

[Iakus]

LessThanKate wrote...

Then maybe you shouldn't play games that have any focus on story. Or games intended to be divided into parts, because they're bound to make you mad or anxious (since you have to wait for the next part...it WAS planned as a trilogy) always in some way at some point or another. Sure Horizon pissed me off, but I would be even more pissed if everything were picture perfect.  

I play plenty of games with story. In fact that's the primary type of game I play, the reason why I love (most) Bioware games so much.

I do admit that the Mass Effect (and to a lesser extent, the Dragon Age) series have soured my view on the concept of importing saves.  I'm distinctly underwhelmed by what I've seen so far.  I really looked forward to ME 2 after ME1 (notice I was not upset by ME1).  But ME3 fills me more with trepidation than anything else, as I desperately hope Bioware doesn't mess it up too bad.

Also notice I did not say I wanted everything "picture perfect" on Horizon.  Nor did I expect it to be.  What I'm saying is that things went about as badly on Horizon as it's possible to go without shots being exchanged.  And it was done deliberately and artificially, for no other reason (I suspect) than to introduce new LIs in ME2.

I don't think it was about not wanting them, but the point of the sequel was the suicide mission and the VS has to stay alive for the third one. With that in mind, I was easily able to accept the situation, even if I didn't necessarily like it. Defending the VS on Horizon feels like punching a tidal wave, but I was never mad at Ashley or Kaiden. I knew they were both loyal to the Alliance and Shepard's association with Cerberus--especially since TIM was feeding them information--was shifty at best. Of course I was upset that all Shepard's responses were totally thoughtless and inappropriate. I was upset with the immediate shift from hot to cold between the two. Still, I knew it was all planned out and couldn't place all my frustration on them.

I don't feel frustration at them for it, I feel frustration at the writers for creating it in the first place.  

As for the VS not trusting Shepard...I simply don't agree, for one. I think the VS trusts that Shepard will do the best they can, but as Ash says in her email, simply cannot go where Shepard is going. I try to look at it from their perspective, since it's so easy to only look at it from Shepard's. Someone you loved/cared for/respected died, and two years pass only for them to come back to life; they don't really explain why, but it involves a terrorist organization. Also, they apparently had time to reacquaint with one or two other friends, but not you. Because they were super busy and you're just not important enough. It's because of all the things you went through that it hurts.

Ash accuses you of being a traitor.  She tells you you've betrayed everything they stood for.  She suggests you're a puppet of Cerberus (okay that one's halfway plausible)  You can have Garrus standing right next to you, and she thinks Garrus joined Cerberus too!  

This isn't "Sorry, I have other obligations" this sounds more like "I can't stand the sight of you".  She (and Kaidan) are totally blinded by the plot.

Again:

I have no problem with them being suspicious of Cerberus and its motives
I have no problem with them being worried about Shepard working for them
I have no problem with them being unable to be recruited.

I do have a problem with the terrible, terrible dialogue (on both sides) which appeared to be specifically designed to drive a wedge between Shepard and the VS

Modifié par iakus, 25 juin 2011 - 03:39 .

[PMC65]

iakus wrote...


Ash accuses you of being a traitor.  She tells you you've betrayed everything they stood for.  She suggests you're a puppet of Cerberus (okay that one's halfway plausible)  You can have Garrus standing right next to you, and she thinks Garrus joined Cerberus too!  

This isn't "Sorry, I have other obligations" this sounds more like "I can't stand the sight of you".  She (and Kaidan) are totally blinded by the plot.

In the context of a lover's quarrel, I always felt that this is where she is lashing out and she knows that accusing Shepard of being a traitor will strike him in the heart. She is trying to hurt him as people do when they are angry. We say the meanest and most hateful things when we fight with a loved one, especially a lover.

When she said that to him I thought, "Wow Shepard, she is really hurt. This is not going to end well for us." Do I hold it against her ... uh, well. In real life I know I've said worse. Will Shepard forgive her? It depends on the Shepard. Mine already has but it took him awhile and only after he made a big mistake.

As a friendship argument, I think they should have had a different set of dialogue ... oh, well. 

But I get that people hate, hate, hate it. I did initially too. Now I just embrace the whole "WHAT THE ?????" and share the frustration with my Shepards.

[FrozenShadow]

I would definitely want apology, especially if they were LI. Actually I would really like that if romancing Ash/Kaidan or not would have some clear effect on how the conversation/possible apology will happen. But the very least there should be some heartfelt discussion and it should be VS, who would start it. Best way would be that they would come to talk to you, but I don't see that happening, so second best is that VS broached the topic, when you talking to one of them.

But I doubt that there would be new apology. But I don't want either that there won't be any serious talks about it. It doesn't actually fits BW's advertised "Deeper Relationships" if they wouldn't talk about something serious as what happen on Horizon. And one email just doesn't cut it.

Actually I think that the best way would be if VS would try to make an apology, but you have option to either hear a new one or say that it doesn't matter or there is nothing to apologize.

Modifié par Newart, 25 juin 2011 - 04:57 .

[LessThanKate]

iakus wrote...


I play plenty of games with story. In fact that's the primary type of game I play, the reason why I love (most) Bioware games so much.

I do admit that the Mass Effect (and to a lesser extent, the Dragon Age) series have soured my view on the concept of importing saves.  I'm distinctly underwhelmed by what I've seen so far.  I really looked forward to ME 2 after ME1 (notice I was not upset by ME1).  But ME3 fills me more with trepidation than anything else, as I desperately hope Bioware doesn't mess it up too bad.

Also notice I did not say I wanted everything "picture perfect" on Horizon.  Nor did I expect it to be.  What I'm saying is that things went about as badly on Horizon as it's possible to go without shots being exchanged.  And it was done deliberately and artificially, for no other reason (I suspect) than to introduce new LIs in ME2.

No, you did not say you wanted a perfectly happy scenario word for word, but good stories are supposed to make you feel a range of emotions. Indeed would be a very sad attempt if it tried to keep you happy. If your anger comes from feeling cheapened, that may be different, but I would agree with previous posts that it's intended to make you mad. You may not like the way it was done, but it still did its job.

This seems like an issue with middle parts of stories. The fact that ME2 dealt with Collectors instead of Reapers directly. I assume it is all meant to create more choices that will pour into the final installment, resulting in a greater culmination of gravity in your choices, but that remains to se seen.

The love interests don't have to have any impact on it. Your Shepard could still be single, if you so choose. The Horizon scene can certainly be interpreted as getting the green light for a new relationship, but that's just it; it's your call. I have a Shepard involved with Ashley, and while playing as him I saw it more of a test. Couples fight, couples almost split up, partners consider what it would be like with someone else. It comes down to the individual choice of whether to act on the negative feelings and seek new companionship or try to endure. You may see it as a game mechanic to give leeway to new love interests, I generally see it as a bump in the road. Maybe for some Shepards it was a sign that their relationship would never work, and for others absence makes the heart grow fonder.

I don't feel frustration at them for it, I feel frustration at the writers for creating it in the first place.  

Ash accuses you of being a traitor.  She tells you you've betrayed everything they stood for.  She suggests you're a puppet of Cerberus (okay that one's halfway plausible)  You can have Garrus standing right next to you, and she thinks Garrus joined Cerberus too!  

This isn't "Sorry, I have other obligations" this sounds more like "I can't stand the sight of you".  She (and Kaidan) are totally blinded by the plot.

Again:
I have no problem with them being suspicious of Cerberus and its motives
I have no problem with them being worried about Shepard working for them
I have no problem with them being unable to be recruited.

I do have a problem with the terrible, terrible dialogue (on both sides) which appeared to be specifically designed to drive a wedge between Shepard and the VS

You don't have to repeat yourself, I believe I understand your point, and I agree with a lot of it. I sure know if I had been writing that scene it would have been handled differently. What I don't understand is how much can change before it disrupts the flow of the story. Do you want the VS to apologize for Bioware temporarily derailing them?
 
I think Ashley was speaking out of anger, as people often do when they're feeling hurt and betrayed. The email helped even things out, which is why I think Shepard should have gotten it whether they romanced the VS or not (I don't think it would've taken that much effort for Bioware to write romantic and friendly versions).

If it is so certain that Horizon is, as you say, meant to be a wedge, then maybe I'm not so offended because I wasn't thrilled at most of the ME2 romances. And if we're to assume the dialogue is really that bad and out of character for the sake of moving the story along, I still don't think two minutes' worth of it is enough to derail a whole game's worth of development.

Modifié par LessThanKate, 25 juin 2011 - 05:35 .

[Ziggy]

I was so happy to finally see Ashley in me2 and then so put out when she talked like shep had sold her soul to cerberus and pissed off :-(
oh yea of little faith!
I'd like an apology or an explanation or something I think.