388 réponses à ce sujet

[Gladegunner]

I dont think its fair to ask for an apology, even though Shepard is not really at fault. Emotionally its because they have already moved on or are not willing to open themselves again in the case Shepard does die again. Liara seems to emphasis this.

So, personally I dont need an apology, but it'll probably still happen.

[Rykn]

I liked Kaidan so I look forward to teaming up with him again regardless. I have 1 Shepard with Ashley only because I wanted my Evil/Psycho Shep to cheat on her. I'm going to have her die somehow in me3. Never knew why I hated her I just do... An apology would be nice nice though. Unnecessary but nice nonetheless

[78stonewobble]

PMC65 wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

I agree that for a story to be good it has to be emotionally engaging. However I felt nothing towards ashley, kaidan or shephard in that instance.

I felt angry at BW about doing such a shoddy job at telling the story. Giving me non choices for conversation.

Well I guess I weren't immersed at all due to the poor dialogue. I just couldn't identify with much of that conversation.

I use to complain about the dialogue until I heard a couple in a heated unscripted argument, thought about some of the arguments that I had been in myself and started laughing. Those made Horizon a frackin' Shakespeare play.

The times that I play with an unromanced Shepard to the VS it does seem a little harder to fall into though. I only seem to lose my reasoning skills with someone I sleep with so ... but I also don't get pissed in those games as well, so I guess it's ok. Just frustrated that my friend won't listen and that my Shepard is slipping in his/her influence skills. "Where is the renegade interupt!" I find myself shouting as Ashley goes off on my femshep .. I just want to backhand her!

Since the scene is suppose to leave Shepard angry and looking at the responses on the forum ... mission succeeded on both Shepard & players. I guess I've just taken the scene as is and let the "pissed off" feeling become part of the connection between Shepard & I ... unfortunately only he got to feel better with Miranda.

The a-hole!  

The scene really is set for lovers not friends when I see it. 

Sure in relationships things can get bottled up, tempers flare and hilariously (in retrospect) arguments ensue.

But...

When you talk to eg. Garrus and Tali which also expresses worry about joining cerberus you have conversation options to tell that you either don't trust cerberus at all or they should stfu and get with the... uhm... programme.

I get to explain that to other characters but not the possibly most important character to shephard.

Something that would remove quite a bit of the VS's apprehension of cerberus.

Being dead is also quite a valid excuse for not contacting a person (something you can't choose ingame either).

Though I can understand the whole mourning for nothing for a person (Shepard) for 2 years as a very huge impact emotionally to the VS. Let it turn to REAL anger if Shephard chooses to be an ass.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 25 juin 2011 - 07:51 .

[Omega Torsk]

Yes. Or at least I'm hoping for one.

Both Ash and Kaidan were out of line. Yeah, they spent the last two years grieving... Shepard spent the last two years dead. Yeah, sorry if it was some kind of big inconvenience for them...

It starts off nice enough, they give you a friendly handshake (or an embrace if an LI), then it all goes downhill. "Why didn't you call?" "I suffocated, got burned up in an atmosphere, and collided with a planet. So yeah, I was dead. Cerberus rebuilt me, though, and I've only been awake for a couple weeks. I wasn't able to contact you because Anderson stonewalled me." "HURR!?!? You're with Cerberus, now? Traitor!" /ragequit

Yeah, the scene could have done with better writing, but I'm confident that Bioware will revisit this in ME3 and make it all better.

[78stonewobble]

I'm all for being emotional enganged in a game.

ME2 favorite "stories" that do engage me: Quarian/Geth conflict, Liara in LotSB and the Overlord pack.

Last one plus Jack's story really put Cerberus in perspective. I really really dislike them now (hate is pretty much allways too strong a word).

Horizon just didn't bring any emotions for the characters for me... Felt artificial which made the characters feel artificial to me.

[dewayne31]

my shepards have a one track way of thinking. fitst the mission and ten everything else. they put it behind them and got back to business. if they have to deal with it they will otherwise they rather forget it and move on

[Momiji.mii]

It would be fun with some kind of reaction from both Kaidan/Ashley and Shepard, but I don't think they were in the wrong. Shepard had his reasons to team up with Cereberus, while Kaidan/Ashley had their reasons to disagree with his/her decision. I'm not blaming any of them, just looking forward to seeing how they solve their differences. ^^

[Iakus]

LessThanKate wrote...

No, you did not say you wanted a perfectly happy scenario word for word, but good stories are supposed to make you feel a range of emotions. Indeed would be a very sad attempt if it tried to keep you happy. If your anger comes from feeling cheapened, that may be different, but I would agree with previous posts that it's intended to make you mad. You may not like the way it was done, but it still did its job.

"Cheapened" is actually a good word for what I felt about the scene.  ME 2 pretty much spit on the VS's characters..  It made Ashley and Kaidan (two characters with essentially opposite personalities and outlooks) into the male and female version of a single being who had no connection to either.  The scene completely ignores the past they shared with Shepard beyond "I missed you" platitudes.  It totally ignored that

1) Shepard has likely witnessed, and violently ended, several Cerberus experiments already.
2) Shepard (and the VS) have in the past committed acts that seemed treasonous to outsiders  in order to stop the Reapers
3) That Shepard may not in fact trust Cerberus at all.  He can voice that to Tali, Garrus, even Mrianda.  But for some reason, not the VS. 

Shep had plenty of ways to demonstrate that the VS's wild allegations were false.  There were no less than three other people on the Normandy the VS knew who could have backed up Shepard.  Shep has evidence of the Collector attack on Freedom's Progress.  There's a former STG either standing right there or on the Normandy who can demonstrate how Collector technology works and how to counter it (might wanna distribute that, you know, to help against further attacks)    

And if there were unsavory rumors about Shep going around, well, it might have been nice to hear what TIM's spreading around. It might have added a little context to the situation.  That all by itself could have made the scene more palatable.  Rather than make me want to throw up a little.

If the VS wants to be suspicious of Cerberus, fine.  If he/she can't won't join up, fine.  But find a better way to do it. The scene was in no way cathartic.  It was in no way fun.  It in no way made sense.  It was an artificial conflict, and a badly done one.  It was like the word "Cerberus" was a berserk button in a control chip.

You don't have to repeat yourself, I believe I understand your point, and I agree with a lot of it. I sure know if I had been writing that scene it would have been handled differently. What I don't understand is how much can change before it disrupts the flow of the story. Do you want the VS to apologize for Bioware temporarily derailing them?

No, I want Bioware to apologize for derailing the VS.

I repeated myself because I thought you were assuming that I don't like the scene because Shep and the VS don't get to walk off arm-in-arm into the sunset while violins started up.  Apologies if I misinterpreted.  The point is, I'm not upset over the lack of recruitment, or even their lack of approval.  I'm made because they go completely fusion over Shepard working with Cerberus.  WIthout listening to an explanation.  While making insane accusations.  And there is zero context to where they're coming from.  The entire scene makes no sense.

Compare Horizon to Freedom's Progress.  Look at how Tali reacts to Shepard working with Cerberus.  That was a far more reasonable reaction.  If that was the VS you meet there rather than a quarian search party, and that was the only VS appearance, I would have been a lot happier.
 

I think Ashley was speaking out of anger, as people often do when they're feeling hurt and betrayed. The email helped even things out, which is why I think Shepard should have gotten it whether they romanced the VS or not (I don't think it would've taken that much effort for Bioware to write romantic and friendly versions).

The letters (both of them) should have come from a face-to-face meeting.  At the very least in a recording sent to Shepard.  As they are, they're just words on a page, without the emotional punch the spoken word can provide.  A Shepard who romanced the VS listening to a recording of his/her voice while looking at their picture would have had a much better effect.

If it is so certain that Horizon is, as you say, meant to be a wedge, then maybe I'm not so offended because I wasn't thrilled at most of the ME2 romances. And if we're to assume the dialogue is really that bad and out of character for the sake of moving the story along, I still don't think two minutes' worth of it is enough to derail a whole game's worth of development.

Judging by how many posters seem to want to bench the VS, or even kill them in ME3, I think it derailed their development for plenty of players.

Me, like I said, I hope ME3 doesn't screw them up too badly.  But I'm no longer optimistic.

[Weltea]

I don't really see why they should apologize (anymore than they have).
They stick to their beliefs and I think that's a good thing.
Plus,they haven't seen you in 2 years were they mourned you and moved on with their lives.Then you come back from the dead,don't contact them (or anyone official to announce to the world btw,not dead yet) and confirm working for a terrorist organization you used to fight and find despiseable

[ApplesauceBandit]

Yes! Especially from Ashley, But then i will be like: I don't care i never liked you either. Hahahah

[Repearized Miranda]

Weltea wrote...

I don't really see why they should apologize (anymore than they have).
They stick to their beliefs and I think that's a good thing.
Plus,they haven't seen you in 2 years were they mourned you and moved on with their lives.Then you come back from the dead,don't contact them (or anyone official to announce to the world btw,not dead yet) and confirm working for a terrorist organization you used to fight and find despiseable

Same could be said for Shepard though. Does anyone think his/her beliefs changed since his/her death. Obviously, the ones that hate Shepard do. I mean, they haven't gone through what Shepard has. Thrown out the airlock plunging to her death an experience like that will CHANGE a person. Look at Jack as bad as she hates Cerberus with damn good reason - the hot target being Miranda! Though I feel her vitrol is OTT and unnecessary, it's understandable. She's been through some sht, so has Shep, but all Ash/Kaidan did was shed tears! I did, too, but also sweat blood and bullets! So where do they get off?

Again, Shepard is steadfast regarding her beliefs, but hers don't matter because of a damn logo and your petty grevances and animosities! Really now? Not to mention trying not to tell either person off, but to them I did! AYFKM?! If they don't owe me an apology, neither do I.

[OdanUrr]

I find it difficult to believe that the VS was unwilling to give Shepard the benefit of the doubt. Here's a person the VS has known from ME1. At that time Shepard was practically alone in his concerns that Saren was working with the Reapers to destroy all life in the galaxy. He was eventually proven right, to a certain extent, and managed to neutralize Sovereign's threat in the process.

Cut to ME2. The VS meets Shepard on a planet under attack by the Collectors. Given their past experience with the PC, the VS should have reacted more along the lines of, "Always in the thick of things, huh, Commander? Just like old times." Instead the VS seems oblivious to the Collector attack and skips right to the part where Shepard's working with Cerberus. Granted, Shepard does an extremely poor job of presenting his/her case to the VS and, as a result, they part ways in less than amicable terms. Heck, even people who only tangentially met Shepard are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 26 juin 2011 - 03:45 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Them being shocked that shep is alive is expected but they were both mad at shep not shocked? I mean I was shocked to see Garrus like that on Omega and even had shep talk like it I was like I thought we worked this out! But they were allegedly pissed off af you though don't sound it at all and hug or give you a handshake to boot not the behavior of a mad person ie BW.

Anyhow where it all breaks down is shep says I died and they say you lie and then it spirals out of control from there. They should've given shep some benefit maybe saying OK maybe I believe you are chasing a reaper trail here but I can't come with you I'm doing my own special mission here and leave it at that.

[Iakus]

Weltea wrote...

I don't really see why they should apologize (anymore than they have).
They stick to their beliefs and I think that's a good thing.
Plus,they haven't seen you in 2 years were they mourned you and moved on with their lives.Then you come back from the dead,don't contact them (or anyone official to announce to the world btw,not dead yet) and confirm working for a terrorist organization you used to fight and find despiseable

Yeah my Shep failed to contact anyone

Well except for Anderson.  
and the Council
and Udina
Oh, and C-Sec .  That nice Captain Bailey fast-tracked my "not dead" status
And Admiral Hackett was nice enough to sent me the coordinates to the Normandy crash site.  Well, technically he contacted me rather than vice-versa.

Nope, no one else officially knew my status 

No wonder they thought I was secretly a terrorist:devil:

[Iakus]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Anyhow where it all breaks down is shep says I died and they say you lie and then it spirals out of control from there. They should've given shep some benefit maybe saying OK maybe I believe you are chasing a reaper trail here but I can't come with you I'm doing my own special mission here and leave it at that.

Kinda like Tali on Freedom's Progress

"I'm glad to see you're still the one giving the orders"

[Zeevico]

Unless Mass Effect 3 features a baby dictionary for Shepard's hypothetical children, I will consider it a failure.

[RO-Bear]

Yes.

Then smoochies.

[78stonewobble]

xnoxiousx wrote...

Did you guys not read your mail after the mission they did say sorry.

I still felt very disconnected from any emotions toward their character and their interaction with Shepard.

[Knight of Dane]

It would be a great game mechanic if you could (assumin that they have a station on the Normandy) ignore them, play it cold, and then after a set amount of missions (3?) they would confront you with it

[78stonewobble]

Knight of Dane wrote...

It would be a great game mechanic if you could (assumin that they have a station on the Normandy) ignore them, play it cold, and then after a set amount of missions (3?) they would confront you with it

To get that dialogue choice of:

"Hey Ash, how've you been?"

[Repearized Miranda]

78stonewobble wrote...

xnoxiousx wrote...

Did you guys not read your mail after the mission they did say sorry.

I still felt very disconnected from any emotions toward their character and their interaction with Shepard.

Ditto! If Shepard's apology didn't phase them, why should theirs phase Shepard's? You wrote me in a letter what you could/should have said to my face given everything else you said to my face? Wimps! (A paragon Shepard may not react like this, but that whole thing could have been written better)

[procyon8]

jeweledleah wrote...


default setting choses VS for you, but it doesn't lock you into romance.  please get your facts straight.  I know that among other lazy things that they did was not differentiating the dialogue much, but you were NEVER FORCED into sleeping with anyone.  if you didn't import from ME1 and started with default ME2 setting - you have no preexisting romances and you have NO love triangles waiting for you in ME3.

I truly hope they wouldn't be so stupid.

and honestly I freaking wish that people would goddamn stop judging characters from their one short and badly written appearance when they haven't even played the first game, chosing to start a TRILOGY in a middle.  your Shepard has a damn history with VS.  even unromanced, you went through a year of searching, fightning together, they supported you in mutiny, not to mention cleaning up after then damn Cerberus for half the game - the fact that was conveniently glossed over in ME2. 

You know who *else* fought at your side throughout ME1? Tali and Garrus! You know who didn't decide to shoot you down and betray you when you were caught in a hornet's nest and needed their help the most? Tali and Garrus! You know who actually bothered to trust you and stand by your side? It sure as hell wasn't the VS!

seriously - stop starting the games in the middle and then complaining when you don't understand something and when things seem to be off the wall.  they really aren't, you just missed half the story.  and you know what?  they ARE right about cerberus and if you had known the entire story, by you know starting at the beginning - you would have known that too.  but I suppose the blame for that layes with bioware for both not explaining the plot of the first game well enough (you are not given Cerberus details in genesis either) and allowing players to start in a middle of the trilogy that features the same protagonist (unlike DA2 that has almost non related instalments so its not nearly as bad)

Whether they're right about Cerberus or not is completely irrelevant. It wouldn't matter if that group was headed by Satan and Saddam Hussein themselves, they were still the only organization willing to offer Shepard the resources he/she needs to take down the Collectors and the Reapers. Stopping the Reapers HAS to be placed above *all* other considerations because nothing else, including what Cerberus did or does, is going to matter if everyone is turned into Reaper chow, is it? THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! That's why the whole argument on Horizon is stupid and why the VS is absolutely bat**** insane on this issue! They're being petty and if you weren't so busy being antagonistic, you would see that too!

[Skirata129]

this is my first time looking at this thread and... wow. btw I agree with ^