388 réponses à ce sujet

[RPGamer13]

So, I just played through this part a few days ago, and I don't get people's problems with Ashley's attitude toward the situation or why they feel they deserve an apology.

If anything, Shepard should apologize to them.

All the points Ashley brought up, I never play with the other one alive, were valid. And most of it happens to be true. Especially now that we know in ME3 Cerberus is among your enemies.

I don't expect an apology, in fact I hope instead there's an "I Told You So" moment in the third game.

Modifié par RPGamer13, 26 juin 2011 - 10:07 .

[Xeranx]

Alice, Shepard could have been smart enough to realize that there might be changes.

"Kaidan/Ashley, I know it's been two years for you, but for me it's been 12 days. I don't know what to say int his situation, but I know it's good to see you."

That at the very least could have been said. It shows that Shepard acknowledges any awkwardness there might be, but also shows that he/she isn't all that different from the last time the VS and Shepard last saw each other. Then all Shepard has to do is apologize for the twelve days they weren't in contact. Cerberus comes up and Shepard tries to assure the VS that he/she really is Shepard. The VS won't know how Garrus or Tali joined up with them. Maybe something happened to them.

Later a letter could be sent by the VS bringing up the question of it really being Shepard that they spoke to and letting Shepard know that they couldn't trust themselves to believe it was true. Keep in mind that these two were aware of what Cerberus did to Kahoku. Being led into a trap by someone that looks like the person they trusted...I certainly would be extremely cautious.

[Ryzaki]

If there's a I told you so moment in game by god I better have a renegade interrupt that involves either walking away or throwing my hands up.

I don't like Cerberus. But I don't like the alliance that the VS is so hard up on either. Both organizations used Shepard. By god do I want to wreck both of them and expose all their dirty secrets.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 juin 2011 - 10:21 .

[Dhiro]

I don't see nothing wrong with their behavior, so... no.

[alice_dear]

Xeranx wrote...

Alice, Shepard could have been smart enough to realize that there might be changes.

"Kaidan/Ashley, I know it's been two years for you, but for me it's been 12 days. I don't know what to say int his situation, but I know it's good to see you."

That at the very least could have been said. It shows that Shepard acknowledges any awkwardness there might be, but also shows that he/she isn't all that different from the last time the VS and Shepard last saw each other. Then all Shepard has to do is apologize for the twelve days they weren't in contact. Cerberus comes up and Shepard tries to assure the VS that he/she really is Shepard. The VS won't know how Garrus or Tali joined up with them. Maybe something happened to them.

Later a letter could be sent by the VS bringing up the question of it really being Shepard that they spoke to and letting Shepard know that they couldn't trust themselves to believe it was true. Keep in mind that these two were aware of what Cerberus did to Kahoku. Being led into a trap by someone that looks like the person they trusted...I certainly would be extremely cautious.

 It would have been nice to have been able to explain yourself (Shepard) better to the VS. It've been nice if they'd sent you an email like above. Unfortunately, that's not the way it happened which will definitely make the reunion in ME3 interesting.

 I'm just analyzing and guessing the emotional reasons on why it played out the way it did on Horizon...What led up to the ending result so to speak.... not how it could've been written better which I do acknowledge that the situation could've been wriiten better.

[LessThanKate]

iakus wrote...

"Cheapened" is actually a good word for what I felt about the scene.  ME 2 pretty much spit on the VS's characters..  It made Ashley and Kaidan (two characters with essentially opposite personalities and outlooks) into the male and female version of a single being who had no connection to either.  The scene completely ignores the past they shared with Shepard beyond "I missed you" platitudes.  It totally ignored that

1) Shepard has likely witnessed, and violently ended, several Cerberus experiments already.
2) Shepard (and the VS) have in the past committed acts that seemed treasonous to outsiders  in order to stop the Reapers
3) That Shepard may not in fact trust Cerberus at all.  He can voice that to Tali, Garrus, even Mrianda.  But for some reason, not the VS. 

Shep had plenty of ways to demonstrate that the VS's wild allegations were false.  There were no less than three other people on the Normandy the VS knew who could have backed up Shepard.  Shep has evidence of the Collector attack on Freedom's Progress.  There's a former STG either standing right there or on the Normandy who can demonstrate how Collector technology works and how to counter it (might wanna distribute that, you know, to help against further attacks)    

And if there were unsavory rumors about Shep going around, well, it might have been nice to hear what TIM's spreading around. It might have added a little context to the situation.  That all by itself could have made the scene more palatable.  Rather than make me want to throw up a little.

If the VS wants to be suspicious of Cerberus, fine.  If he/she can't won't join up, fine.  But find a better way to do it. The scene was in no way cathartic.  It was in no way fun.  It in no way made sense.  It was an artificial conflict, and a badly done one.  It was like the word "Cerberus" was a berserk button in a control chip.

Shepard also had the option of giving away files--which, at that point, were taken by the Alliance--to an information broker represtenting Cerberus. Shepard also has the option of killing Admiral Toombs and disregarding anything he says about what Cerberus did to him, and it seems all the more ruthless if Shepard is a Sole Survivor. In the first game, Cerberus was more of a secondary (at best) force of opposition. It got a lot more ambiguous in the second game, but even early on, there are a lot of variables. Maybe most people didn't do these things, but they had the option, just like in ME2 they had the option of embracing the Cerberus philosophy or begrudgingly taking their help only for as long they need it.

And Kaidan and Ashley paralleled each other nicely. In the first game. Two years probably isn't enough time to go through a 160, but enough that their perspective can change on a few key issues. Seems likely they were convinced that the Alliance was doing the right thing. Shepard was even still there until he/she was brought to Cerberus through some intricate circumstances. Plus, we know about as much of what they were doing as the VS knows about Shepard's actions once in Cerberus: next to nothing.

I repeated myself because I thought you were assuming that I don't like the scene because Shep and the VS don't get to walk off arm-in-arm into the sunset while violins started up.  Apologies if I misinterpreted.  The point is, I'm not upset over the lack of recruitment, or even their lack of approval.  I'm made because they go completely fusion over Shepard working with Cerberus.  WIthout listening to an explanation.  While making insane accusations.  And there is zero context to where they're coming from.  The entire scene makes no sense.

Compare Horizon to Freedom's Progress.  Look at how Tali reacts to Shepard working with Cerberus.  That was a far more reasonable reaction.  If that was the VS you meet there rather than a quarian search party, and that was the only VS appearance, I would have been a lot happier.
 
The letters (both of them) should have come from a face-to-face meeting.  At the very least in a recording sent to Shepard.  As they are, they're just words on a page, without the emotional punch the spoken word can provide.  A Shepard who romanced the VS listening to a recording of his/her voice while looking at their picture would have had a much better effect.

That is part of what I thought you meant, yes. Much as I dislike the lack of closure, I do get the impression it needs to stay that way for the time being. It feels so awkward and painful because there's no other way. It's not as though they can just sit around and share what they know; both factions need to work in secrecy. Characters like Garrus and Tali don't have as much at stake, the parties they once represented (still represent, depending on how Tali's mission goes) are neutral. I'm not going to hold it against the VS because they don't just want to quit being a marine.

Obviously a face to face would have been fantastic, but it's not feasible. If you talk to Anderson before Horizon, you can ask where the VS is, but he withholds the information because of the mission Ash/Kai is on. Safe to say after Horizon, the VS continues to perform secret military operations.  

Judging by how many posters seem to want to bench the VS, or even kill them in ME3, I think it derailed their development for plenty of players.

Those don't sound like people that were very fond of the VS to begin with, so you'll have to forgive me if I take that with a grain of salt. I've yet to encounter anyone who was a big fan of Kaiden and/or Ash and completely gave up on them after Horizon. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I'd find it suspicious.

Again, I understand, Horizon was...rather lame, but I think you still had your hopes too high. Even in this final installment, the Reapers have emerged, it's a...beyond critical mission; there might not be a lot of time for apologies and explanations.

The VS will do as Shepard says, if nothing else. That might be his/her way of apologizing.

laecraft wrote...

Also, Liara saves your body, and Wrex is
actually happy to see you (the only one who's happy to see you, in
fact). Isn't it ironic that the aliens find it within themselves a
capacity to overcome their hurt feelings, their confusion and
alienation, and two years of grief, to listen to you and to trust you,
and to have faith in you - and your fellow human is the only one who
betrays you? The aliens are more noble than a human, isn't that fun?

It's
especially more hilarious since the whole issue is about the pro-human
group, and about saving the human colonies. If not for TIM, I'm sure
Shepard would've lost all faith in his fellow human beings, who don't
give a damn about their own kind.

You know who else doesn't give a damn about humankind? All the other races.

Betrayal is way too strong a word. The VS is staying the course. Obviously Bioware didn't do Ash and Kaid any favors by keeping them behind while the others are more...openly supportive. But betrayal? No, they want to keep humanity safe and defeat the Reapers as much as Shepard, but at that time, they wanted to do it their own way. A way that didn't work, but still.

Modifié par LessThanKate, 26 juin 2011 - 11:55 .

[Lyahnn]

I expect ME3 to consider your reaction to Horizon when you speak to Joker afterwards and follow from there. If you´re angry and/or depressed, yes, an apology (or at least a chance to clear the air in person) should be necessary. My Shepard told Joker that all was ok, she understands where Kaidan is coming from, Kaidan has said that he trust Shepard, just not Cerberus, something she totally understands, and told her to stay alive and that he had to report to the the brass. She gets that 2 years has passed and it´s not possibly to pick up where they where in that instant, and that Kaidan is going to need more time to think about it. And I didn´t think that he was dating another woman when i read his email. He himself said it wasn´t serius, just pass the time with somebody not her. That´s not the same as dating, i see it more as wetting his feet after two years in dry land, so to speak, build relationships with other people and not just pin away for her. That nevers stars with a serius relationship, more like a friendship with some flirtation, maybe. So no, i don´t expect apologies, they never where so at odds with each other in ME2, and i would see one as odd. Even so, an actual conversation about the past x years is neccesary, even if not just about Horizon. If you parted in bad terms, you have to fix it, and if not, your relationship was in hiatus for years and when you saw each other again, it was put on hiatus again because both of you had other things to do at the time, it´s impossibly to act as if no time has passed.

[Iakus]

LessThanKate wrote...

Shepard also had the option of giving away files--which, at that point, were taken by the Alliance--to an information broker represtenting Cerberus. Shepard also has the option of killing Admiral Toombs and disregarding anything he says about what Cerberus did to him, and it seems all the more ruthless if Shepard is a Sole Survivor. In the first game, Cerberus was more of a secondary (at best) force of opposition. It got a lot more ambiguous in the second game, but even early on, there are a lot of variables. Maybe most people didn't do these things, but they had the option, just like in ME2 they had the option of embracing the Cerberus philosophy or begrudgingly taking their help only for as long they need it.

Yeah, Shepard had those options.  (although the agent was working for the Shadow Broker and Tombs was a Corporal)  If only there was a way to record the choices selected in the first game to have appropriate consequences for the second game.  A way to take these choices into account and have a way for characters to respond appropriately  based on past choices made.  A way to "import" if you will a game  from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2:P

And Kaidan and Ashley paralleled each other nicely. In the first game. Two years probably isn't enough time to go through a 160, but enough that their perspective can change on a few key issues. Seems likely they were convinced that the Alliance was doing the right thing. Shepard was even still there until he/she was brought to Cerberus through some intricate circumstances. Plus, we know about as much of what they were doing as the VS knows about Shepard's actions once in Cerberus: next to nothing.

And that lack of context is really painful.  All we know about either of them for the last two years  is A) they mourned Shepard and they've been promoted.  There is no context for how they've changed.  We are given no clue as to what TIM's been spreading around.  Given that the only person I can think of who gives Shepard a worse welcome back is the turian councillor (and maybe Udina, but you can at least talk him down some) and this character was, potentially, one of your staunchest allies and one of maybe a half dozen other people in the galaxy who knows what you know, I'd like a little context into what's going on here.

I compared this once to the in media res thing you sometimes see on TV or in the movies.  You see a character doing some crazy task.  The protagonist may be doing something totally out of character.  Then you cut to a screen that says something like "48 hours earlier" and you see how they got into that particular situation.  Over the course of that, their actions make more sense.  By the time you catch up, you understand everything.  Well, Horizon was that opening segment.  I'm still waiting to see what happened 48 hours earlier.  Liara got hers with LOTSB.   

That is part of what I thought you meant, yes. Much as I dislike the lack of closure, I do get the impression it needs to stay that way for the time being. It feels so awkward and painful because there's no other way. It's not as though they can just sit around and share what they know; both factions need to work in secrecy. Characters like Garrus and Tali don't have as much at stake, the parties they once represented (still represent, depending on how Tali's mission goes) are neutral. I'm not going to hold it against the VS because they don't just want to quit being a marine.

And why not?  The quarians hate Cerberus every bit as much as the Alliance.  Perhaps more so, and you get to visit their flotilla!  I can walk right up to the Council (well, their holograms) flanked by Cerberus operatives proudly bearing their logo on their Spandex uniforms, and get my Spectership back.  But I have to be called a traitor by someone who helped me save the galaxy two years ago?  They don't have to share information with me, or tell me what they're up to.  Just say they undrestand why I'm doing this even if they think I'm walking a dangerous path.

Again look at Tali on Freedom's Progress.  How I wish that was the VS and a complement of Alliance marines instead.

Obviously a face to face would have been fantastic, but it's not feasible. If you talk to Anderson before Horizon, you can ask where the VS is, but he withholds the information because of the mission Ash/Kai is on. Safe to say after Horizon, the VS continues to perform secret military operations.  

How about a private message like Hackett sends you during Arrival?  Or a voice message instead of an email? Or in addition to, after you visit Anderson after Horizon

"Here Shepard.  Ashley/Kaidan asked me to give you this.  He/she seemed pretty shaken up after Horizon.  I take it the meeting didn't go over so well?"  

Add a little more feeling of hope after the scene, and less a feeling of  "Man, the VS fans are gonna be p*ssed, we outta throw them a bone"  The "gaze at the picture" scene during the trip to the Omega IV Relay could also have Shepard listening to it while gazing.

Again, I understand, Horizon was...rather lame, but I think you still had your hopes too high. Even in this final installment, the Reapers have emerged, it's a...beyond critical mission; there might not be a lot of time for apologies and explanations.

The VS will do as Shepard says, if nothing else. That might be his/her way of apologizing.

I went in knowing they were reduced to cameo status, that they were not recruitable.  I didn't have my hopes up that much.  But to be greeted with outright hostility?  I hardly call being mad about that having one's hopes up too high.

The VS doesn't owe me an apology.  Bioware does.

[Terastar]

I am really glad that the Horizon scene happened the way it did.
The Vs was right you have betrayed your oaths to the Alliance and as a Spectre to work with Cerberus (no choice given about this so we all just had to deal with it).
I was so upset at first with the way it went down and how it went down but I finished the game several times and have been thinking about it each and every time I reach that place.
So the writing works it makes you feel it makes you think.
Some players will be able to use Horizon to move on to other characters for LI and some will still wait and see what happens later. If the VS meant nothing to you anyway then no love loss. I would have liked for the VS to send ALL the Shepard's an email to voice that they still respected and had concern for the Commander but they would not leave the Alliance to follow them.
This one scene has had me look at it from my Commanders point of view, the VS point of view and the Mass Effect story point of view all looking for clues and reasons of why this happen and what was the purpose of this happening. I have hopes as the story enfolds more that we can find the answers.

[stwu]

My main Shepard has moved on to Thane. If Kaidain want's another chance he ain't gettin' one. He blew it big time. Sara Shepard doesn't take kindly to being called a traitor.

[mopotter]

alice_dear wrote...

This is my point of view on the situation if the VS was an Li.

Shepard has been away for 2 years but in your time it's only been a few weeks. When you died, your relationship with your team was strong. Your relationship with your Li was moving forward. When you finally get up and moving, one of the first questions you can really ask is 'if your team survived'. Yes, you are working with the wrong people.. It's not like you had a choice (atleast not in my case). When you talk to Joker, encounter Tali, recruit Garrus.. You find out firsthand how much 2 years without your involvement has changed your team.. You are still the same person from 2 years earlier- they're not. As much as you are trying to understand how different things and people are, you are still 2 years behind in the way the world works now. When you see your VS who was also an Li on Horizon, you're happy they are alive. Shepard acts like everything is okay between them because in your eyes, it is.. The person you trusted the most is standing before you and maybe they can help you understand what has changed so massively in 2 years.

On your VS' side, She/he was ordered to a pod when they wanted to go back and save Joker. You used your rank to order them to safety, ultimately costing you your life, in their eyes.They just watched from an escape pod or heard later that the person they loved, was saved by countless times, always made it out alive, is now MIA... and it was all because they declared they were going to save Joker and you wanted to protect them.. again. Talk about feeling guilty! I'd imagine they'd be the first one on a crew looking for your remains and would join several after the intial failed attempt. Or, they'd have been sent to another allience warship never getting the opportunity to search. Either way, I'd assume they wouldn't be so quick to jump the gun on believing your dead.. you've had brushes with death since they met you and have always come out alive. I wonder how many months they spent waiting for contact, how many rumors they chased down, how many guilt-ridden nightmares they had. Probably after a year, they'd start actually making progress with moving on with their life.... only to be blindsided by another rumor, another twinge of guilt, and hope that you were still out there somewhere. Finally, after almost 2 years, they've given up searching and are really moving on. When they encounter you on Horizon, all the old emotions and memories flood back. They're happy to see you at first but then I imagine they feel guilty for giving up on you so easily even though it has been so long. They're angry inside but telling themselves they did everything right.. how could they have known you were truly alive. They have spent so long placing the blame and guilt on themselves for your death that to see you alive is unbelieveably infuriating and that fury comes down on your head.

The scene could've been better written but it shows that you don't alway get the closure you want in a situation... You can't just fix 2 years of seperation, anger, and guilt with a few words. The VS attempts to send you an apology note after they have time to clear their head but even then they can't let go of the anger or guilt.

In ME3, I'm not looking for an apology from the VS. I'd like to know what happened to them in the 2 years I was gone (I have my ideas as you can see above).
Gaining closure on the 2 years we spent apart and moving forward would be nice instead of spending conversations apologizing for having human emotions that block us from seeing reason 100% of the time

I like this a lot.    Good post.

Horizon could have been better written, a lot better written.  But I had no problem with them questioning Shepard's working with Cerberus and I actually liked that they called Shepard out for it.  

I hate having every one of my team bowing down and saying oh yes Shepard, whatever you want Shepard you are the best Sheaprd you can do no wrong Shepard.    Actually having someone question Shepard was refreshing,  even to the point of wondering if Shepard was being controlled.  it's not ike Miranda didn't think about it, so it very easily could have happened.   

I don't want or expect an apology, unless it's I didn't know you asked Anderson about me because he never passed that information  on.  

[TheKillerAngel]

I will give them SNCO treatment.

[Mr.Pink]

I think there may be an apology in ME3, but if she is mad at you for cheating, you should be able to explain you thought you were dumped.