388 réponses à ce sujet

[Badpie]

Some mature discussion about Horizon is needed. I don't think it's so much an "apology" from either side but just being able to move passed it.

I really hope they don't make Ash or Kaidan grovel an apology to Shepard just so some gamers can get an ego boost and keep thinking their Shepard is the greatest thing ever who does no wrong.

One of the whole reasons I ever like Ash or Kaidan is that if they had a different opinion, they shared it. They weren't doormatty little yes men, which unfortunately I think some people would prefer from their squadmates.

[Dazaster Dellus]

Funkcase wrote...

I see fans dont like characters being too realistic? The VS had the most realistic response. How would most people react if there friend (or lover) was dead for two years, and shows up out of nowhere working for a terrorist group? A enemy of the Alliance. If any of my friends died and turned up working for the Taliban or the IRA I would tear there throat out!

Atleast Ash and Kaidan had a opinion of there own, and didn't jump straight on Shepards d*ck like everyone else. Someone has to keep Shepard's ego in check, we are playing a marine here, not superman.

To each his own. You can't speak for everyone though. People react in different ways. Some not as good and civil as others. Doesn't make them right.

Also to follow up on your example. If you were to find out your friend was working for the Taliban or some other terrorist group you would tear their throat out huh?! Well what if he or she had a good reason. Like saving mankind from annihilation. Sounds a little like someone else we know huh? But nevermind. You would have torn their throat out on sight instead of talking it out and then tearing their throat out if they were indeed bad people. We are doomed.

[jeweledleah]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

skcih-deraj wrote...

Alien team mates or no you are still working for a pro-human agenda (hey could that be why they save a human colony?) terrorist organization. Now how do they react to that? In the first game your fighting against them. Your other ME1 squade mates (Garrus and Tali) even question it when they get on the ship. Tali does so on two occasions! When you meet her on Freedoms progress and when she gets back on the Normandy. Again if you save the collector base and she survives the mission. (So three times if you're keeping count)

But no hate for them right? Tali and Garrus are just a little nicer about your affiliation becuase you either saved them or saved them twice and got them safely on the ship and they had nothing else to do, but help Shepard.

Did I show up wearing a Cerberus T-shirt or did I show up with a trusted companion like Garrus? Don't you think that's worth at least a small question or two before jumping to conclusions?

And yes, Tali and Garrus did ask questions. That's my exact point. They also gave me the benefit of the doubt and came along to watch my back. Which is precisely the reason I wanted them to come along. To have people with me I could trust. And you have to admit Tali had much greater reason to mistrust the whole Cerberus thing than the VS did.

you showed up TELLING them that you are working for cerberus.  they don't start getting angry untill after you, yourself confirm it.  you go to Anderson first, yes, but he doesn't Tell VS anything about you.  all they have to go on is rumors, rumors that you, yourself had JUST confirmed.

good job, Shepard, and you wanted them to still trust you now?  riiiight.

the scene was sloppily written al around, Kaidan was... posessed by spirit of Ashley.

and like others have already mentioned.  Garrus didn't exactly have much of a choice of whether to go with you.  come to think of it - the only people you get get up to that point that do have a choice of going with you?  are DLC characters and I guess you could say Mordin.  Miranda and Jacob are stuck babysitting you becasue that's what Illusive men told them to do, you rescue Garrus from impossible and deadly situation (in fact he did almost die), you spring Jack out of crio prison cell, you get Grunt out of his tank, his "father" is dead.  they have nowhere else to go.  Mordin, I guess does, and you do help him with his Omega task, but Mordin is neither old friend, not exceptionaly good guy (genophage, remember?)

perspective is an interesting thing.

[Oblivious]

@Dazaster Dellus that's why Bioware dropped the ball in that scene, Shepard didn't get the chance to pull VS to the side and talk to him/her 1 on 1. Instead he acted like a drunk frat boy who can't remember who that person is and is trying to see how long he can act it out.

It's not VS's fault that Shepard was an idiot. It was Bioware's.

[Funkcase]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Funkcase wrote...

I see fans dont like characters being too realistic? The VS had the most realistic response. How would most people react if there friend (or lover) was dead for two years, and shows up out of nowhere working for a terrorist group? A enemy of the Alliance. If any of my friends died and turned up working for the Taliban or the IRA I would tear there throat out!

Realism? I tell you with all honesty that if the person I loved so much 'it was like losing a limb' came back from the dead to save my life, the first thing I would do is strip them naked and throw them to the ground for an extensive "mole check." After I felt their identity were properly confirmed I'd ask some very detailed questions. For my report of course.


That's entirely different from someone clearly working for a terrorist organization actively trying to kill you. Throat tearing would be encouraged in that case. But I'd hope you'd at least get proof they are working for said organization before you did. Like the aforementioned trying to kill you part.

I would be worried about the (wasn't you dead?!) thing too much to strip off

Well being a army brat growing up, I have lost some friends fighting in Afghan, and my uncle was murdered by the IRA when I was a kid. They would need a very, very good explanation, and even then I would feel betrayed. I can see where the VS come from, and Shepard explaining himself very poorly doesn't help.

[Dazaster Dellus]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Funkcase wrote...

I see fans dont like characters being too realistic? The VS had the most realistic response. How would most people react if there friend (or lover) was dead for two years, and shows up out of nowhere working for a terrorist group? A enemy of the Alliance. If any of my friends died and turned up working for the Taliban or the IRA I would tear there throat out!

Realism? I tell you with all honesty that if the person I loved so much 'it was like losing a limb' came back from the dead to save my life, the first thing I would do is strip them naked and throw them to the ground for an extensive "mole check." After I felt their identity were properly confirmed I'd ask some very detailed questions. For my report of course.


That's entirely different from someone clearly working for a terrorist organization actively trying to kill you. Throat tearing would be encouraged in that case. But I'd hope you'd at least get proof they are working for said organization before you did. Like the aforementioned trying to kill you part.

I agree. There are reasonable reactions and then there are unreasonable ones. Even if Ash/Kai were hurt their are plenty of ways they could have said it without a complete verbal assault on my being.  I mean seriously. If I show up with almost half the original crew(exaggeration), that has got to create some doubt or understanding.

[goofyomnivore]

I don't think they need to apologize. It was very bad writing. And haven't they sent an apology via email? That is more than Shepard has done.

As for them not joining. I understand why and don't blame them.

[Badpie]

Oblivious wrote...

@Dazaster Dellus that's why Bioware dropped the ball in that scene, Shepard didn't get the chance to pull VS to the side and talk to him/her 1 on 1. Instead he acted like a drunk frat boy who can't remember who that person is and is trying to see how long he can act it out.

It's not VS's fault that Shepard was an idiot. It was Bioware's.

I also feel like Horizon suffered from some throw-away writing.  That was disappointing.  Felt like that scene was an afterthought really.

[MyOpinionSucks]

skcih-deraj wrote...

@MyOpinionsucks and tsundres:

You do realize that Ash/Kaidan was in the terminus right? On that same colony where they also lost communications while installing the defense towers? So Anderson or the council/Udina whoever telepathicaly told them of Shepard's revival?

How were they supposed to know you spoke to Anderson? I didn't think I needed to bring up the downed comunications thing, but seeing as every one is inside their comfortible little box and cannot seem to think out side of it I must have had to.

Also since the Illusive man admits to having something to do with Horizon being attacked, isn't the VS's idea of not trusting Cerberus right off the bat, warrented?

As I understand it Horizon's communications only went dark just before the Collector's attack. Indeed, that was the reason TIM thought it was under attack. Which means VS had however long it took Shepard to recruit Garrus, Mordin, Grunt and Jack to hear about it. Given that Ashley claimed her mission was investigating rumors about you working for Cerberus and figuring out who was abducting colonies, I'd have thought Anderson would have mentioned the fact that you came and talked to him with a couple of Cerberus agents and let him know the Collectors were doing the abducting.

As for trusting Cerberus, I'm right with you. But, again, I must stress that I told her to her face that I wasn't taking orders from Cerberus, but merely accepting their help against a massive threat that nobody else was doing anything about.

And while I applaud her mistrust of Cerberus, I did rather hope that she'd trust Shepard, at least. Just like literally every other ME1 squadmate you talk to. And Anderson. And Joker. And Chakwas. And all the aliens you recruit who make it clear they're working for you and not Cerberus. And also Jack, who has more reason than anyone not to trust Cerberus.

[Oblivious]

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Funkcase wrote...

I see fans dont like characters being too realistic? The VS had the most realistic response. How would most people react if there friend (or lover) was dead for two years, and shows up out of nowhere working for a terrorist group? A enemy of the Alliance. If any of my friends died and turned up working for the Taliban or the IRA I would tear there throat out!

Atleast Ash and Kaidan had a opinion of there own, and didn't jump straight on Shepards d*ck like everyone else. Someone has to keep Shepard's ego in check, we are playing a marine here, not superman.

To each his own. You can't speak for everyone though. People react in different ways. Some not as good and civil as others. Doesn't make them right.

Also to follow up on your example. If you were to find out your friend was working for the Taliban or some other terrorist group you would tear their throat out huh?! Well what if he or she had a good reason. Like saving mankind from annihilation. Sounds a little like someone else we know huh? But nevermind. You would have torn their throat out on sight instead of talking it out and then tearing their throat out if they were indeed bad people. We are doomed.

I would ask them some questions. If they responded in the dumb "Long time no see" way Shepard did I would start getting angry. If they continued going "It's not what it looks like" and avoiding my questions on that matter I would be furious. By the end I would just give up on them, especially after avoiding my questions they go "Forget the Alliance and join my crew. It'll be like old times" for no good reason.

VS acted realistically. Shepard acted like a retard. 

[78stonewobble]

I would think that being in a coma/dead is a pretty good excuse for missing something. Also thinking another person is dead is also a pretty good excuse for having moved on.

Whats the problem?

Other than the lame conversation options/replies?

[Dazaster Dellus]

jeweledleah wrote...

you showed up TELLING them that you are working for cerberus.  they don't start getting angry untill after you, yourself confirm it.  you go to Anderson first, yes, but he doesn't Tell VS anything about you.  all they have to go on is rumors, rumors that you, yourself had JUST confirmed.

good job, Shepard, and you wanted them to still trust you now?  riiiight.

Wasn't one of the options "I don't work for Cerberus!" and she still went off n you without asking any further questions? Personally I think Shepard and VS responses weren't written the best. If you went all Renegade on them I could understand them being mad. But not for just trying to explain the sit.

and like others have already mentioned.  Garrus didn't exactly have much of a choice of whether to go with you.  come to think of it - the only people you get get up to that point that do have a choice of going with you?  are DLC characters and I guess you could say Mordin.  Miranda and Jacob are stuck babysitting you becasue that's what Illusive men told them to do, you rescue Garrus from impossible and deadly situation (in fact he did almost die), you spring Jack out of crio prison cell, you get Grunt out of his tank, his "father" is dead.  they have nowhere else to go.  Mordin, I guess does, and you do help him with his Omega task, but Mordin is neither old friend, not exceptionaly good guy (genophage, remember?)

perspective is an interesting thing.

You forgot about Joker and Chakwas. I know they aren't battle characters but they were also there in orbit.  The VS knowing they were also with Cerberus probably would have helped. But knowing Ashley's attitude she probably would have still went off.

[ADLegend21]

I expect them to say sorry for calling Shepard a traitor and Shepard to explain why they couldn't contact the VS (no reply button in the Cerberus Mailing system XD) while they had every right not to go with Shepard, the traitor thing was a little much, especially if they were together in ME1.

Modifié par ADLegend21, 17 juin 2011 - 06:15 .

[Badpie]

Personally I'm happy to just dismiss the Horizon as what it was: a shallow plot point with lazy writing.

I'm all for forgetting that ever happened and just moving forward with my friendship/relationship with Ash or Kaidan.

[Dazaster Dellus]

Oblivious wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Funkcase wrote...

I see fans dont like characters being too realistic? The VS had the most realistic response. How would most people react if there friend (or lover) was dead for two years, and shows up out of nowhere working for a terrorist group? A enemy of the Alliance. If any of my friends died and turned up working for the Taliban or the IRA I would tear there throat out!

Atleast Ash and Kaidan had a opinion of there own, and didn't jump straight on Shepards d*ck like everyone else. Someone has to keep Shepard's ego in check, we are playing a marine here, not superman.

To each his own. You can't speak for everyone though. People react in different ways. Some not as good and civil as others. Doesn't make them right.

Also to follow up on your example. If you were to find out your friend was working for the Taliban or some other terrorist group you would tear their throat out huh?! Well what if he or she had a good reason. Like saving mankind from annihilation. Sounds a little like someone else we know huh? But nevermind. You would have torn their throat out on sight instead of talking it out and then tearing their throat out if they were indeed bad people. We are doomed.

I would ask them some questions. If they responded in the dumb "Long time no see" way Shepard did I would start getting angry. If they continued going "It's not what it looks like" and avoiding my questions on that matter I would be furious. By the end I would just give up on them, especially after avoiding my questions they go "Forget the Alliance and join my crew. It'll be like old times" for no good reason.

VS acted realistically. Shepard acted like a retard. 

It's been a few weeks but fromwhat I remember of the convo, Shep didn't really get the chance to explain himself. The last playthrough I did was with Ashley and all she did after the initial praise was toss barbs at Shep in which he had to try to defend himself against. It didn't even really start off civil.

Also everyone keeps saying "VS acted realistically". Come one! I couldbeat someone half to death with a bat for sleeping with my wife because I was angry. It was realistic but that doesn't make it right. Same thing here. Yeah, they may have acted on realistic emotions but that still doesn't make it right.

One thing I think a lot of people can agree on is that the Horizon scene was definitely written poorly. I wish it had more emphasis instead of it being a side note. Hopefully the next meeting will be more fleshed out.

[Raiil]

I'm sure there will be some sort of conversation about it. My paragon Shepard will be an adult and very diplomatic about it. My canon Shepard will be angry as hell and probably not accept any apologies, as she can hold a grudge for a long, long time.

[ashlover mark 2]

i dont expect ash or shep to apologize to each other,both did what they had to do ashley chose to stay with the alliance reaper threat or no,and shep had to work with cerberus beacuse no one was paying attention to him (not happy about being stonewalled for another game,but i can also understand the council they did what they had to do as well)this is polotics and war the survival of the galaxy is at stake,in those typs of situations we make the best choices that we can with what we have.

ash and shep had a fight about ideals (which tends to divied ppl in real life aswell) and they both payed for there choices,the price was seperation.now that the reapers are here all i care about now is the present will she have my back in ME3? i didnt cheat and told TIM "see ya" so im guessing she will and thats all that matters.

[nickkcin11]

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Funkcase wrote...

I see fans dont like characters being too realistic? The VS had the most realistic response. How would most people react if there friend (or lover) was dead for two years, and shows up out of nowhere working for a terrorist group? A enemy of the Alliance. If any of my friends died and turned up working for the Taliban or the IRA I would tear there throat out!

Atleast Ash and Kaidan had a opinion of there own, and didn't jump straight on Shepards d*ck like everyone else. Someone has to keep Shepard's ego in check, we are playing a marine here, not superman.

To each his own. You can't speak for everyone though. People react in different ways. Some not as good and civil as others. Doesn't make them right.

Also to follow up on your example. If you were to find out your friend was working for the Taliban or some other terrorist group you would tear their throat out huh?! Well what if he or she had a good reason. Like saving mankind from annihilation. Sounds a little like someone else we know huh? But nevermind. You would have torn their throat out on sight instead of talking it out and then tearing their throat out if they were indeed bad people. We are doomed.

Yes because as we know that seems like the logical thing the Taliban (or Cerberus) would do... After what Ash saw what Cerberus was capable of, I'm glad she didn't trust them. I wish Shepard could have denied them too. It's not like the Suicide mission couldn't have been done with the original squad and a bunch of marines. Shepard was still a SPECTRE, he could do whatever he wanted.

The point is Ash reacted in a civilized way to a bumbling fool (Shepard went all ME1 on me during Horizon). His, "How've you been Ash? It's been a while." was a terrible way to start a conversation off with a lover who mourned your death for 2 years. And his "explanations" are ****. "I was in some kind of coma thing" no Shepard, I think it's safe to say, "I died... I was brought back by Cerberus and heard that human colonies are being abducted and that you had moved on and were doing important, classified work of your own. I tried to contact you but you're classified." Unfortunately, we got the dialogue choices on Horizon which sucked ass. Hope they fired whoever wrote them.


@Dellus
Stop using huge exaggerations as bad evidence. "I could beat the **** out of my wife for cheating on me!!! That would be realistic but not right." Whoa, you think that is a realistic response... you my friend watch way too much TV. Shepard acted like an idiot and got the reaction he/she deserved. The convo started with her praising Shepard and his/her achievements and if you romanced her, a hug. The convo went downhill when Shepard started being a retard.

Modifié par nickkcin11, 17 juin 2011 - 06:33 .

[Patchwork]

The VS and Shepard need to have a discussion about the last two years and what happened with Cerberus but an apology from either side isn't necessary imo.

There's a line in the Kaidan romance 'I'm not looking for a pet'. That neither Kaidan or Ashley follow Shepard blindly is something I've always liked about their characters.

Modifié par Ser Bard, 17 juin 2011 - 06:31 .

[jeweledleah]

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

you showed up TELLING them that you are working for cerberus.  they don't start getting angry untill after you, yourself confirm it.  you go to Anderson first, yes, but he doesn't Tell VS anything about you.  all they have to go on is rumors, rumors that you, yourself had JUST confirmed.

good job, Shepard, and you wanted them to still trust you now?  riiiight.

Wasn't one of the options "I don't work for Cerberus!" and she still went off n you without asking any further questions? Personally I think Shepard and VS responses weren't written the best. If you went all Renegade on them I could understand them being mad. But not for just trying to explain the sit.

and like others have already mentioned.  Garrus didn't exactly have much of a choice of whether to go with you.  come to think of it - the only people you get get up to that point that do have a choice of going with you?  are DLC characters and I guess you could say Mordin.  Miranda and Jacob are stuck babysitting you becasue that's what Illusive men told them to do, you rescue Garrus from impossible and deadly situation (in fact he did almost die), you spring Jack out of crio prison cell, you get Grunt out of his tank, his "father" is dead.  they have nowhere else to go.  Mordin, I guess does, and you do help him with his Omega task, but Mordin is neither old friend, not exceptionaly good guy (genophage, remember?)

perspective is an interesting thing.

You forgot about Joker and Chakwas. I know they aren't battle characters but they were also there in orbit.  The VS knowing they were also with Cerberus probably would have helped. But knowing Ashley's attitude she probably would have still went off.

responces were written terribly.  even if you pick, I don't work for Cerberus - shepard just goes - oh I'm just temporarily allied with them, or something like that.  yeah, way to go Shepard.  you never tell them that Joker and Chakwas are on the Normandy, no matter whcih conversation option you chose to talk to VS - it just sounds horrible.

I have basicaly found a combination of neutral paragon and renegade responses, that sounds less horrible, but its still pretty derpy.  and yes, VS should have listened a little longer.  Writers didn't want them to for whatever reason (probably why they made Shepard sound like that much of an idiot).  they also merged their personalities, made NO aknowledgement for conversation paths you had with tehm, barely aknowledged romantic relationships.  at least they gave Kaidan his own armor for that scene unlike the destruction of Normandy intro.  never mind that its exactly the same as that of half the random mooks on Illium spaceport, at least its not phoenix armor anymore.

I don't think Horizon should be brushed off.  what's done is done.  but at least i hope that they will give players a wide variety of options of how they can handle it and don't make the apologizing a default and only options.  because several of my Shepards feel like THEY are the ones that should be apologizing.

[shepskisaac]

Not at all, my ManShep couldn't be anymore happy with the Horizon scene

[Dazaster Dellus]

nickkcin11 wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Funkcase wrote...

I see fans dont like characters being too realistic? The VS had the most realistic response. How would most people react if there friend (or lover) was dead for two years, and shows up out of nowhere working for a terrorist group? A enemy of the Alliance. If any of my friends died and turned up working for the Taliban or the IRA I would tear there throat out!

Atleast Ash and Kaidan had a opinion of there own, and didn't jump straight on Shepards d*ck like everyone else. Someone has to keep Shepard's ego in check, we are playing a marine here, not superman.

To each his own. You can't speak for everyone though. People react in different ways. Some not as good and civil as others. Doesn't make them right.

Also to follow up on your example. If you were to find out your friend was working for the Taliban or some other terrorist group you would tear their throat out huh?! Well what if he or she had a good reason. Like saving mankind from annihilation. Sounds a little like someone else we know huh? But nevermind. You would have torn their throat out on sight instead of talking it out and then tearing their throat out if they were indeed bad people. We are doomed.

Yes because as we know that seems like the logical thing the Taliban (or Cerberus) would do... After what Ash saw what Cerberus was capable of, I'm glad she didn't trust them. I wish Shepard could have denied them too. It's not like the Suicide mission couldn't have been done with the original squad and a bunch of marines. Shepard was still a SPECTRE, he could do whatever he wanted.

The point is Ash reacted in a civilized way to a bumbling fool (Shepard went all ME1 on me during Horizon). His, "How've you been Ash? It's been a while." was a terrible way to start a conversation off with a lover who mourned your death for 2 years. And his "explanations" are ****. "I was in some kind of coma thing" no Shepard, I think it's safe to say, "I died... I was brought back by Cerberus and heard that human colonies are being abducted and that you had moved on and were doing important, classified work of your own. I tried to contact you but you're classified." Unfortunately, we got the dialogue choices on Horizon which sucked ass. Hope they fired whoever wrote them.


@Dellus
Stop using huge exaggerations as bad evidence. "I could beat the **** out of my wife for cheating on me!!! That would be realistic but not right." Whoa, you think that is a realistic response... you my friend watch way too much TV. Shepard acted like an idiot and got the reaction he/she deserved.

Ok wow, where do I start with this one?! If you love someone and they tell you(if actually given the chance) that they are working with(not for) a bad group for the survival of mankind and you still completely trash them, that is not love nor is it good. Also, you are wrong. Shepard was not still a Spectre, unless you actually went to Anderson and got reinstated. Once he died his Spectre status ended. Also, he was already with Cerberus so the Alliance already wanted nothing to do with him. Without Cereberus' help bringing him to life and giving him a ship there would be no Shep. So what you are asking for would have required for the game to be completely different. We can "What if" all day. Given the story of the actual game though your arguments are wrong.

Lastly, Stop telling me to stop exaggerating when you can't even quote my post right. The example is exactly the same. Slightly more extreme but exactly the same none-the-less(Even if you did butcher it completely). How about actually reading it next time.

[The dead fish]

Personally, I understand those who hope for a proper apology, even if myself I just want a proper explanation. The behavior of Ashley / Kaidan, albeit of poor writing is disturbing anyway.

So it's not a requirement for me, but why not. I hope especially explanations above it, which will help to turn the page between them. For not wanting to follow Shepard, his love, it's still a difficult decision and for the person who choose that, and the person loved, disappointed.

If my girlfriend would refused to follow me, I would probably be upset. So yes, a true discussion.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 17 juin 2011 - 06:47 .