14 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

Interview with Ray Muzyka on Eurogamer regarding DA2 and upcoming DLC. Mostly the same sort of PR talking points Frank Gibeau mentioned alreay last week, but here it is.

Some quotes:

"We have some new DLC that's upcoming that's going to try and address  some of the comments and try and provide the fans with the things  they're looking for, both the core fans and the new fans."

"We're committing to making sure all the products in the franchise going forward are going to appeal to a wide audience, both the core and  more."

"It's been one of the most polarising launches we've had, frankly."

"It actually drew a lot of new players in who really love it," Muzyka continued. "Many people who played Dragon Age: Origins loved it as well.

"But also there were a lot of fans of the original Dragon Age: Origins  who weren't as happy with it. Maybe they were looking for more of the  same, and it was different and innovative in ways they weren't  expecting.

"Commercially, it's been very successful. Critically it's been successful with a lot of new fans, and many of the old fans.

"We take the feedback of all of our fans, our core fans particularly,  really seriously. We're committed to trying to address that feedback.

"We think it was innovative. We're proud of the risks the team took. We  think it's the right direction for the franchise. We also think there's  an opportunity to listen to the core fans who loved Dragon Age: Origins  to make sure they're with us on the journey going forward.

"We need to work hard to make sure that happens, that that is the case."

So it seems BioWare is intent on painting DA2 as "innovative" and those who didn't like it as some sort of outlier that simply couldn't handle the change and "innovation." What bugs me is how they act like the people that didn't like it are all lumped into one group that simply wanted more Origins. Well, maybe DA2 just wasn't a very well put together game?

Is it not possible that some of the "new fans" they keep coming back to thought the game was a rushed mess too, not just the fans of Origins? Not to mention how are they able to quantify these "new fans"?  Just seems they're almost marginalizing the people that didn't like DA2 as simply being backwards thinking RPG grognards while constantly trying to say how DA2 brought in some new fanbase.

I know they're not going to bash their own game but how DA2 keeps getting propped up with bloated PR speak calling it "innovative" without going into details how they think it was innovative is baffling. Maybe on the concept side, but not so much on the execution side.

Modifié par Brockololly, 17 juin 2011 - 04:04 .

[Stanley Woo]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I assume that the "Innovation" referred to things like the shift from a silent protagonist to a voiced protagonist or the structure of the narrative - and yes, even the wheel, plus tonal icons. Whether or not you agree with the supposed innovations, it seems that they have taken notice of the criticisms, or does the part where Muzyka says they're going to try to address some of the issues the old fans have had with DA2 and satisfy old and new fans not count? Not that I really give a flying fig about "old" fans who still have their knickers in a twist about the game and are yet again upset about something someone at BioWare said.

Some people just want to argue because they really wanted to like Dragon Age II and didn't, and they're blaming everyone and everything so they won't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, Dragon Age II might not be for them. This i why, despite all the accusations and rants and name-calling and quote-mining and misrepresentation of developer responses, they keep coming back--simply put, they want to like the next game we release.

And that's okay, as long as respect and courtesy are still maintained on this forum.

[John Epler]

It should be mentioned that there's always going to be a bit of reticence on our part to make wide, sweeping promises about what particular feedback we're going to take into consideration and exactly what changes will be made with future installments. If we say 'yes, of course we're going to do X to fix Y, because Y wasn't received well' and then, in the process of developing future content, we discover that 'oh crud, we can't do Y because of Z which we totally weren't considering' then we will (quite rightly) be taken to task on this failure to deliver.

And in the end, we can sit on this forum pouring honeyed words into your ears and telling you 'you know what, guys, we're going to fix X, Y and Z because we think you guys are just swell and aren't we awesome as a result?', but, like they say in pretty much every realm of human interaction - actions speak louder than words. Whatever we tell you we're going to fix will be, understandably, viewed with a certain amount of skepticism if you felt DA2 was not a product you enjoyed. And, to be fair, there are going to be some fans who will not enjoy our next product, even if we address some of the concerns that people had as a result of DA2. That's unfortunate, but anytime you make changes you have to be willing to deal with the consequences.

So, rather than saying 'guys, we're going to do this and this' we're going to let our products speak for us. Some of what people weren't happy with will be addressed. Some of it will not, because the list of 'everyone wanted these things addressed' items is very small, and items on the 'some people want these things addressed' list need to be viewed carefully in the perspective of the design philosophy as a whole, as well as the reasons for the negative reaction - some of which is a result of how the idea is presented, a concept every bit as important as the idea itself.

But it's not perfect, and we'll never please everyone. Heck, I doubt you can find more than a handful of things that everyone on the project agrees on. In the end, what we create will have to stand on its own merits. Some people will like it. Some people won't. And we'll, as always, look at what worked and what didn't and let that inform our design philosophy going forward.

[John Epler]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I really hate the codex, so let me state my opposition: 

They are the epitome of tell and not show.

[snip]

I think the codexes need to die beause they're a low-cost excuse to avoid the technical problem of how to enrich your world actively.

Oh I definitely agree that they should not be a replacement to active story telling, and / or "showing".
Ideally, I'd much rather have the codices only report what was already told by characters, in case we forget. 

But what I was arguing is the practicality. I am not sure it would be possible to delve into a lot of detail concerning all issues just via characters, without it being expensive (VO and all).  But like I said, ideally, nothing would please me more than talking about lore, and seeing elements of the lore (for instance, I really loved Kal Hirol from Awakening. Or the dream sequences in TW2, or just the way the battle of Vergen was told and shown).

I think this is rather fair on both ends. Ideally, we'd like to show you the lore instead of tell it to you. In a perfect situation, you'd learn things along with your character, instead of 'You have a new codex entry' and then reading up on it. But, like everything else in videogame development, it's a question of resources. I'm not entirely sure how the process works (and no doubt one of the writers will correct me if I'm wrong, possibly using a blunt object), but I don't think there's anything necessarily 'critical' that's revealed in Codices. It's mostly flavour lore, things that may not be entirely relevant to your current situation but still provide a bit of flavour to the world and some context to your actions within.

Though again, this would be (ideally) shown through the game world, whether through conversation, through ambient dialogue or even just simply level events. But the cost versus benefit analysis has to always be made, and text is still one of the cheapest methods for conveying information. 

[Stanley Woo]

magicwins wrote...
They could easily characterize what was received well and what wasn't right now. And even if they're unwilling to go that far, acknowledging that their choices led to poor sales

Having absolutely no knowledge of Dragon Age II's budget, sales projections, or specific sales numbers, I doubt you can make that claim, let alone force us to announce them to you to prove anything. Insisting that we do so to justify or rationalize your negative perception of the game is a little silly. Four or five different developers have already acknowledged that the game isn't 100% awesomesauce, have confirmed that feedback has been listened to and will be considered, and announced an intention to try and make future games better for everyone.

Telling us that we can't/shouldn't be proud of what we have accomplished, whether you agree with it or not, makes it sound like your're throwing a tantrum. We have acknowledged our lack of 100% awesomeness. Can you be just as big and admit there are things about Dragon Age II that BioWare can and should be proud of?

[Stanley Woo]

Brockololly wrote...

I agree with much of what you've said with the caveat that at least part of the issue thats irking people with the stuff Muzyka or Laidlaw said in the past is where it can be perceived as less acknowledging the game has issues and more that the issues seem to lie with the gamer and they weren't able to handle it:

I certainly understand that folks are sore over some of what we did with Dragon Age II, but I think a lot of the rage is based on confirmation bias. You're already dead set against liking DA2, and feel you've been betrayed by BioWare, of course you're going to take what we say in the most negative way possible. That's why we're having his "argument" in the first place.

You'll note that at no time have I or any other developer directly denied that there are things about DA2 that needed work, or didn't work out as well as we'd hoped. The way some folks tell it, we've just tied someone's dog to our boots and kicked their kitten into a burning orphanage. And by Jove, we need to admit that we're low-down, filthy puppy-haters and kitten-kickers!

On a more serious note, consumers also have to bear some of their own responsibility. Nothing that we say, nothing that marketing says, nothing that EA says, absolves the gamer from making responsible, informed puchasing decisions. Part of that responsibility includes admitting that hey, maybe I've made a mistake this time, oh well, next time I'll take that into consideration. Because holy hannah, there's a huge difference between "come on, BioWare, you guys can do better than this," which is a point of disagreement that we can talk about, and "Dragon Age II is bad and you should feel bad! You shold be fired!", which is a more emotional response that we can't really talk through.

Remember how the forum was when DA2 was first released? Flame posts everywhere and we largely said nothing. Why? Because people weren't ready to listen and be reasonable yet. All they could focus on were the differences between DAO and DA2 and how much they didn't like that. As I predicted, after a few weeks, we started to get more constructive, reasoned responses. People didn't like the game any more by then, but at least they could better articulate just what it was they objected to. It also helped that many people had finished the game and could put all the changes into context, which we appreciated enough to maintain and periodically review a Constructive Criticism thread, which continues to this day.

Surely some people wanted a sequel more akin to Origins, but its a bit insulting to hear how DA2 was just so groundbreaking and innovative and well, anyone that didn't like it is some trogolodyte that needs to go back to their archaic pen and paper.

Would you consider it just as annoying and/or insulting to hear that people want you to be fired, that you're incompetent, and that your company should go out of business just because they didn't like something you did? Because that's what sensationalist hyperbole gets you. People wanted BioWare to acknowledge the game wasn't perfect. We've done that, publicly, both here and in interviews. People wanted BioWare to learn from its mistakes. we've stated our intention to try to do so, but cannot say anything for certain until we start talking about the next project. We would never resort to name-calling or insults to get our point across. There's not only no reason to do so, but it's kind of a douchey thing to do, and I'm pretty sure y'all don't think we're douches. If y'all did think we were douches, I doubt you'd be sticking around, trying to get us to do better next time.

It seems like the game is getting more credit than its due with some of this "innovation" which for some is the fundamental issue with the game at a design level and for many others the issue is the lackluster implementation of said "innovation."

Call that a disagreement. I think the game is getting credit, full stop. some people believe that acknowledging anything good about the game means the next game will be exactly the same. History and logic will indicate that we do change the way we make games based on gamer feedback, and that we are capable of making good games. Why, then, would we intentionally antagonize people, and on our very own forums, no less? Disagreement does not mean that everything's going to be the same next time. On the other hand, disagreement also does not mean that everything will be as you expect it next time. No matter the amount, nature, or frequency of the feedback we receive, ultimately we will be the ones developing the game, we take the risks, and it is our reputation on the line.

That's just as immutable as the fact that ultimately, the decision to purchase the game, when, for how much, and based on what criteria, are entirely yours.

Sorry I'm so long-winded. I can get pretty passionate about our interactions with our community, and about consumer issues.

[Stanley Woo]

magicwins wrote...
Is it wrong for me to expect people to not be 'happy' with this situation?

No one has insisted that you be "happy" with anything. No one has taken away your right to feel however you feel. All that's being asked (by me, anyway) is that you present your "unhappiness" in a reasoned manner.

I'm not expecting sadness or disappointment, or anything negative per se, but conjecturally (since, as Mr Woo pointed out, I lack access to hard sales figures) the game seems to have done badly commercially, and linked to bad word-of-mouth press.

Yes, but your perception of sales doesn't affect what we know or what we do or what we're planning to do in the future. The way some people tell it, all we're doing is sitting on our laurels, claiming we're perfect, and throwing our drinks in the face of the players! Believe me, we are not. Quite the opposite, we take all the feedback into account, not just from you guys, but from players all over the world, via emails, Tweets, Facebook comments, blog comments, news articles, those comments, in person at conventions, and even internally from other developers.

The only message I get from everyone involved is that it's business as usual, and once they make a few tweaks here and there, everything will be up and running smoothly again. And even there they're not being clear about anything. Which frustrates me because I want to like this franchise but am utterly unable to.

Again, as you are unfamiliar with what we do and how, I will say that your version of how we do things is incorrect. Remember, please, that Dragon Age II was developed, in part, based on player feedback from Dragon Age Origins. You can see just how far we can go in listening to and acting on some of the feedback we receive. I don't see why people can accuse us of resting on our laurels, while at the same time chastising us for doing some things too differently.

[Stanley Woo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Speaking for myself. They don't come out and say "and there are some who, while not minding changes in principle, think we did a poor job implementing them". Which I think is a good part of those who didn't like DA2. Ideally, I'd also want writers to come out and say they didn't do as good job as they could have, at least when it  comes to Act 3 (one kind of came close to admitting it). But of course, they can't really say that at the moment, and I understand.

I also understand why many keep getting pissed off at comments like that. I personally don't get pissed off, but neither do I jump for joy every time I hear them say they are considering feedback. For now, just words to me and sadly, that is no longer enough when it comes from Bioware.

Sorry, KnightofPhoenix, but perhaps I'm not interpreting you correctly.

On the one hand, you "want writers to come out and say they didn't do as good job as they
could have, at least when it  comes to Act 3 (one kind of came close to
admitting it)." But ont he other, you say that it would be "just words to me and sadly, that is no longer enough when it comes from Bioware." So you want our develoeprs to bow and scrape to you, just so you can scoff at them and not accept their apology? Sounds rather rude to me, humiliating the developers you wish to make a game you'll like better next time.

[Stanley Woo]

Regardless of any disagreements, I am enjoying our discussion here. I hope you guys are as well.

[Stanley Woo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Regardless of any disagreements, I am enjoying our discussion here. I hope you guys are as well.

I personally am as well Mr. Woo
And I want it known that any criticism that I level against DA2 is not meant to offend anyone, dev or fan. Saying that cause I apparently already offended someone, because I went too far without intending to.

So noted. thank you for your candour.

[Stanley Woo]

magicwins wrote...
Well, Mr. Woo, that's what you guys said before DA2 and I wasn't too happy with how my feedback reflected in your product, so I'm just going to wait and see what you do next time, instead of trying to rein you left and right. Which, to clarify, is not what I'm doing now. Now I'm just trying to understand which direction you're driving your horse carriage in.

Ah, but just because we listen to feedback doesn't mean we throw our own ideas out the door. We take all the feedback into consideration, sure, but it all still has to fit together into a coherent product. And you'd think I'd get tired of asking the following question, but I don't: who do we listen to? For example, if your feedback is "more X" but someone else's is "less X" or even "no X," well, we have a conundrum, don't we? it's not as easy to deal with a wide spectrum of feedback as some people think it is.

from what I read in a lot places, most people who disliked Dragon Age 2 were not knocking it for trying things they saw as driven by player feedback from Origins. They criticized it for implementing things that made them suppose that it was sacrificing its integrity to appeal to a wider audience in a shorter time.

I would disagree with the "most people" part, but that is a valid criticism. Neither Ray nor Mike's comments remove that as one reason (Ray does say "maybe") people disliked DA2.

[Stanley Woo]

Melca36 wrote...
Speaking as someone who did not hate Dragon Age 2, I liked the game...
but if some of the gameplay changes were made because of feedback, it makes me wish I was more vocal back then.

There would still have been no guarantee that your ideas would have fit with our decisions. We don't just go with whoever's loudest or most persistent.

[Stanley Woo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Melca36 wrote...
Speaking as someone who did not hate Dragon Age 2, I liked the game...
but if some of the gameplay changes were made because of feedback, it makes me wish I was more vocal back then.

There would still have been no guarantee that your ideas would have fit with our decisions. We don't just go with whoever's loudest or most persistent.

Prettiest? Cutest? Most badass?

Come on Woo, don't leave us hanging.

You're right, Maria. We go with the cutest feedback.

[Stanley Woo]

Let's dial it down a notch, folks. It's Friday night, and some of us would like to finally leave work and go home and not find that this thread has exploded. Thanks, everyone.

[Stanley Woo]

Thanks for not exploding this thread over the weekend, despite some minor flare-ups.