1248 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

Bejos_ wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I assume that the "Innovation" referred to things like the shift from a silent protagonist to a voiced protagonist or the structure of the narrative - and yes, even the wheel, plus tonal icons. Whether or not you agree with the supposed innovations, it seems that they have taken notice of the criticisms, or does the part where Muzyka says they're going to try to address some of the issues the old fans have had with DA2 and satisfy old and new fans not count? Not that I really give a flying fig about "old" fans who still have their knickers in a twist about the game and are yet again upset about something someone at BioWare said.

Some people just want to argue because they really wanted to like Dragon Age II and didn't, and they're blaming everyone and everything so they won't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, Dragon Age II might not be for them. This i why, despite all the accusations and rants and name-calling and quote-mining and misrepresentation of developer responses, they keep coming back--simply put, they want to like the next game we release.

And that's okay, as long as respect and courtesy are still maintained on this forum.

No, people are angry that the company is 1) treating them like crap, 2) lying to them, 3) avoiding their questions, 4) expecting them to cough up even more money so that Bioware can fix its mistakes, and ... I could go on, but come on, Stanley.

Bioware has not treated me like crap. The fans however...

Bioware has not lied to me either.

Bioware also answered several of my questions. (As in devs responding)

Bioware is not expecting you to cough up money. That decision is yours.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UnspokenSoul22 wrote...

For me, at least, I'd like to see them get rid of the codex. Let's be truthful, now.

Does anyone actually read every, single entry or even two, three? I might have glanced at the occasional one, but I'd much rather go on quests and learn about these things myself, rather than just reading about them.

I disagree.
I'll fully agree that codices are not supposed to be integral to the plot, in the sense that you can't understand the game without reading them (cough mystery of Kirkwall cough). And I'll agree that dialogue with characters is a better way to learn things, say like the Antivan Crows or the Qunari.

But, codices can also provide details, that while could be irrelevent to the plot, would still add life to the lore. I especially like how DA codices have authors (ME ones don't), which shows you how some people percieve things. Dialogue is too expensive that having codices to compliment them, is necessary if you want to show more detail when it comes to an issue.

And yes, I read them. If you don't wnat to, that's fine. But just leave them.

[UnspokenSoul22]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And what I find weird is that ME2 also had an attention to detail, both visual and otherwise. Sometimes to absurd levels (who gives a damn about the garbage disposal in Zaeed's room?). So I am not sure why the DA team thought we were so moronic that we don't need "useless" details.

What was with that garbage disposal? it was pretty pointless.

ME2 did have some terrible levels, particularly the ones with that stupid mini-craft...oh, what was it called? The...The scorpion? Was that it? Anyway, those sequences were absolutely dreadful.

Back to DA. The little things do count, and I believe BW has characters and their personalities down to an art. They just need to take more time out to make DA3 awesome. Don't rush! Revamp the inventory, armor, maps, graphics and all, then we're talking. Even though I'd be forever sad, I wouldn't mind it if this game came out mid-to-late 2012.

-edit- Eh. I suppose the codex is alright. It just seems like more of a hassle than it's worth.

Modifié par UnspokenSoul22, 17 juin 2011 - 07:47 .

[Nerevar-as]

UnspokenSoul22 wrote...

For me, at least, I'd like to see them get rid of the codex. Let's be truthful, now.

Does anyone actually read every, single entry or even two, three? I might have glanced at the occasional one, but I'd much rather go on quests and learn about these things myself, rather than just reading about them.

Yes, I do. In Origins I also read most of the item descriptions. In Witcher 2 too (making the codex Jaskier notes on the events was priceless). And in Mass Effect, and so on. Well thought lore is always ineteresting to read.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

For me, the thing that pisses me off the most is the quality of the story, or lack thereof. Act 3 specifically was a debacle imo. I would say it's on par with saturday morning cartoons, *Snips*

Then there is the wave combat, the inability to have Hawke do anythign that involves brain functions, reused envrionments, a dull lifeless city...etc etc.

Reasons are there to dislike it, as well as to like it. So I am not sure what's there to be sure about.

You sure had me fooled.

And that's in addition to insulting my intelligence. But hey, whatever floats your gondola.

What? How did I insult your intelligence?

[Tirfan]

Bejos_ wrote...

Tirfan wrote...

The restaurant analogy doesn't exactly work - there are far more restaurants than RPG-games (or perhaps I just don't know about them), I've said elsewhere, I paid for the game, I'm a customer, I was not satisfied - thus I complain, the reason, I do still attend these forums, that I did not mention then, was that there is still some actual, good discussion here, and I feel that I've had some myself - and I've gained something from these discussions.

And is your restaurant going out of its way to fix the mistakes free of charge? Nope. They just rush it and move onto the next product. Cf Stanley Woo's reply above.

What do you wan't me to say? They are not, it is obvious, but, I replied to this thread before, I think on the page 8, where I stated my reasons to buy DA3 if it turns out to be a good game - no matter how disgusted I am with Bioware, and I am in a way, there is no denying that, there are not too many good rpg:s around, I like these typed of games, and if I could, I would only play PnP:s, but I can't. So I play pc-rpg:s too as a substitute.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

For me, the thing that pisses me off the most is the quality of the story, or lack thereof. Act 3 specifically was a debacle imo. I would say it's on par with saturday morning cartoons, *Snips*

Then there is the wave combat, the inability to have Hawke do anythign that involves brain functions, reused envrionments, a dull lifeless city...etc etc.

Reasons are there to dislike it, as well as to like it. So I am not sure what's there to be sure about.

You sure had me fooled.

And that's in addition to insulting my intelligence. But hey, whatever floats your gondola.

What? How did I insult your intelligence?

I'll let you know when I'm no longer bloody angry.

So maybe next year......

[AtreiyaN7]

Bejos_ wrote...

No, people are angry that the company is 1) treating them like crap, 2) lying to them, 3) avoiding their questions, 4) expecting them to cough up even more money so that Bioware can fix its mistakes, and ... I could go on, but come on, Stanley.

You can't honestly say you believe what you just wrote. If you do, and if that attitude represents the rest of Bioware's attitude-- well, "quel horreur" and expect a very bumpy (and probably very short) ride.

Really, treating them like crap and lying to them? LOL! Yes, I guess those dirty rotten developers have reintroduced more RPG elements into ME3 precisely because they absolutely do not listen to the criticism (constructive and otherwise) from fans and always ignore them! *sarcasm* As far as I can tell, all the patches to date as far as DA2 goes have been free, so what exactly were they charging you for fixing mistakes there? *snort*

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Stanley Woo wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I assume that the "Innovation" referred to things like the shift from a silent protagonist to a voiced protagonist or the structure of the narrative - and yes, even the wheel, plus tonal icons. Whether or not you agree with the supposed innovations, it seems that they have taken notice of the criticisms, or does the part where Muzyka says they're going to try to address some of the issues the old fans have had with DA2 and satisfy old and new fans not count? Not that I really give a flying fig about "old" fans who still have their knickers in a twist about the game and are yet again upset about something someone at BioWare said.

Some people just want to argue because they really wanted to like Dragon Age II and didn't, and they're blaming everyone and everything so they won't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, Dragon Age II might not be for them. This i why, despite all the accusations and rants and name-calling and quote-mining and misrepresentation of developer responses, they keep coming back--simply put, they want to like the next game we release.

And that's okay, as long as respect and courtesy are still maintained on this forum.

Make it an actual Deep RPG and we will like it. Enough with this streamlining the RPG elements right out of the game and ripping things like the dialog wheel and paraphrasing out of other titles like Masseffect then calling it "innovative"

Also try not rushing in out in 18 months and using recycled areas for half the game.  kthx.

[Zanallen]

Sigh, Bioware should just stop doing interviews or responding to threads on the forums. They can't win. Whatever they say won't be enough and people are going to misconstrue their words to fit whatever opinion they want to present as fact.

[Elhanan]

I liked it, story and all. But I have said the same before, as have many of the same detractors in other sim threads. And I prefer the Bioware interviews, but am glad the OP tried to use directed quotes before attaching their POV.

[Bejos_]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

I have a question for everyone:

After all of this condescension, are you still going to buy DA3?

Even if you liked DA2, doesn't the manner in which Bioware is handling all of this put you off?

You only get as offended as you let yourself be. I didn't particularly feel as if it was condescension or attempts to blame fans for it. I see a lot of truth in what they said, after you take it through the PR filter... but you have to take it through a PR filter, because that's just how it is.

As someone else said, I buy games because I like them and wish to play them. I liked DA2, and I expect I will like DA3. If that's the case, I will likely buy it.

Fair enough. I didn't buy DA2, so this isn't a personal grudge I'm grinding. Just keep in mind that, whatever other games you buy from Bioware/EA, it just encourages them to continue to act like this.
If you're okay with that, I'm okay with that.
Now, the people who deny there's PR/marketing condescension on the part of the company, and still go out of their way to defend the company ... Those people I don't understand.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Bio-Age wrote...

So we have to pay for these DLC's - that address some of the issues that have been brought up. Yeah not going to happen.

You don't have to pay for any DLC. If you dislike it, don't buy them. There's no better way to convince a company that you're serious than to stop giving them money.

What he seems to be against, hooray, is the idea that he has to pay more money to get what should have already been in the game.
You're right, though. Which is why I'm not buying another Bioware title, ever again, unless they remove themselves from EA and find new management. There's a very small chance of that happening, of course, and I've resigned myself to it. Que sera sera.

Modifié par Bejos_, 17 juin 2011 - 07:52 .

[Lunar Savage]

Eh, sounds like Bioware is begrudgingly admitting they messed up, but they seem really bitter about it. They're trying to dismiss all the complaints as being from a group of people who simply just don't like change. When nothing could be further from the truth. We like change, but we want change IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

What Bioware did with DA 2, to me personally, seems and feels like the wrong direction. Like they did a complete and total 180 on everything the series was built on and for. There are ways to change the existing formula so that they feel new, but are still improvements on what people loved in the first place (Pokemon is perhaps the best running example in the industry). Copy/pasting from Mass Effect however, is not improving things (especially in the case of the dialog wheel, which IMO is the worst thing to ever happen to RPGs). Bioware doesn't seem to understand that you can change without having to pull a 180.

And this supposed DLC that "fixes" or addresses player concerns sounds absurd. I should not have to pay more money to be able to enjoy your screw up.

If Bioware wants to appease their EA bosses and the stockholders more than the people actually buying their games and giving them money, so be it. But I'll not be going on that journey.

And they'll damn sure not have my sympathies when EA closes their doors because they can't capture the money of the CoD crowd.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

For me, the thing that pisses me off the most is the quality of the story, or lack thereof. Act 3 specifically was a debacle imo. I would say it's on par with saturday morning cartoons, *Snips*

Then there is the wave combat, the inability to have Hawke do anythign that involves brain functions, reused envrionments, a dull lifeless city...etc etc.

Reasons are there to dislike it, as well as to like it. So I am not sure what's there to be sure about.

You sure had me fooled.

And that's in addition to insulting my intelligence. But hey, whatever floats your gondola.

What? How did I insult your intelligence?

I'll let you know when I'm no longer bloody angry.

So maybe next year......

I specifically added "imo", "I thought", "for me"...etc etc, precisely so that I don't say "DA2 IS blah blah blah".

So I am not sure I understand how that is insulting your intelligence. I have reasons on the otherhand to feel that way, but I don't.

But in any case, I apologize if I caused offense.

[Persephone]

Zanallen wrote...

Sigh, Bioware should just stop doing interviews or responding to threads on the forums. They can't win. Whatever they say won't be enough and people are going to misconstrue their words to fit whatever opinion they want to present as fact.

Sadly true.

[Elhanan]

Bejos_ wrote...

... You're right, though. Which is why I'm not buying another Bioware title, ever again, unless they remove themselves from EA and find new management. There's a very small chance of that happening, of course, and I've resigned myself to it. Que sera sera.

And just when some were looking for good reasons to pre-order, here we are: seperate forums for game owners....

[Zjarcal]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Some people just want to argue because they really wanted to like Dragon Age II and didn't, and they're blaming everyone and everything so they won't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, Dragon Age II might not be for them.

Indeed.

Brockololly wrote...
 Is it not possible that some of the "new fans" they keep coming back to thought the game was a rushed mess too, not just the fans of Origins? Not to mention how are they able to quantify these "new fans"?

And conversely how can you quantify those who didn't like it? You guys seem hellbent on making it a point that the majority of people didn't like DA2, when you don't have any concrete proof.

I love how some posts have qualified the Muzyka interview as "depressing". Depressing that they acknowledge that some of you guys didn't like it? Jeez, I bet that if Muzyka got on his knees and begged you for forgiveness you'd complain that he isn't doing it loud enough or in the right tone.

[Bejos_]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

No, people are angry that the company is 1) treating them like crap, 2) lying to them, 3) avoiding their questions, 4) expecting them to cough up even more money so that Bioware can fix its mistakes, and ... I could go on, but come on, Stanley.

You can't honestly say you believe what you just wrote. If you do, and if that attitude represents the rest of Bioware's attitude-- well, "quel horreur" and expect a very bumpy (and probably very short) ride.

Really, treating them like crap and lying to them? LOL! Yes, I guess those dirty rotten developers have reintroduced more RPG elements into ME3 precisely because they absolutely do not listen to the criticism (constructive and otherwise) from fans and always ignore them! *sarcasm* As far as I can tell, all the patches to date as far as DA2 goes have been free, so what exactly were they charging you for fixing mistakes there? *snort*

I'm not talking about their games. I'm talking about BW's attitude outside of the games: how they're defending design decisions, how they're defending inconsistencies, how they're defending rush-jobs ...
This defense more often than not involves an attack on its customer base or, if not that, outright lies.
"Everything is all double-plus good here, guys!"

[Bejos_]

Persephone wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Sigh, Bioware should just stop doing interviews or responding to threads on the forums. They can't win. Whatever they say won't be enough and people are going to misconstrue their words to fit whatever opinion they want to present as fact.

Sadly true.

That's exactly what I've been saying, Zanallen. Not the rest, 'course.
If you don't want to be misrepresented, don't be vague. And if you don't have anything to say about how exactly you're going to be improving from here on out, give it a rest.
Cliche time again: Actions speak louder than words.

[Bryy_Miller]

Bejos_ wrote...
If you don't want to be misrepresented, don't be vague.

This, exactly.

[AtreiyaN7]

Bejos_ wrote...


Fair enough. I didn't buy DA2, so this isn't a personal grudge I'm grinding. Just keep in mind that, whatever other games you buy from Bioware/EA, it just encourages them to continue to act like this.
If you're okay with that, I'm okay with that.
Now, the people who deny there's PR/marketing condescension on the part of the company, and still go out of their way to defend the company ... Those people I don't understand.

You say that it's not a personal grudge and acknowledge that you didn't even buy DA2? Then what, exactly, is it that you're doing here - a public service for everyone by railing against EA? Because that's what it looks like based on your statement: EA as the evil empire, corrupting everything it touches.

Marketing is to sell a product, and that's what the marketing department is for, for good or ill. I don't think anyone's been rah-rah, awesome marketing. People aren't defending the marketing or PR-speak. However, you seem to be accusing the devs who worked on the game/entire company of making some concerted effort to deceive everyone, which is something that I rather doubt.

[Elhanan]

Bejos_ wrote...

That's exactly what I've been saying, Zanallen. Not the rest, 'course.
If you don't want to be misrepresented, don't be vague. And if you don't have anything to say about how exactly you're going to be improving from here on out, give it a rest.
Cliche time again: Actions speak louder than words.

See? We can agree on something....

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bejos_ wrote...
If you don't want to be misrepresented, don't be vague. And if you don't have anything to say about how exactly you're going to be improving from here on out, give it a rest.

Well it is a press release, so I wouldn't expect them to go into details.

That said, yea I am waiting for the day they do that.

[Maria Caliban]

I dislike the word polarization because I don't understand it.

How can a wave of light be said to travel in a direction while being perpendicular to the direction? Wouldn't that produce a constant curving?