1248 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

hoorayforicecream has said many insightful things regarding dev time and how it impacts profits

IIRC, she stated it this way.

The biggest cost for a game is salary. A development group of 200 people paid 50,000 annual is $10 million a year.

1 year: $10 mill
2 year: $20 mill
3 year: $30 mill
4 year: $40 mill

A game that takes four years to make needs have at least four times as many sales as one that takes one year, or it's not as profitable.

If DA 2 has half the sales of DA:O, it's still more profitable.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 juin 2011 - 08:36 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

UnspokenSoul22 wrote...
Hm. I'm trying to think what this new DLC might include. It'll probably represent something of Awakening, no? I bet BW's going to try to appease their buyers by letting you journey out of Kirkwall and maybe sperad your influence to other parts of the world. Perhaps they'll let you go back to Lothering. Who knows?

I really just hope it's not some half-baked potato--erm, attempt at getting fans back into the series. Hopefully, it's relatively cheap and provides at least a couple hours of gameplay? It'd even be better to see them make an epilogue of sorts for DA2. Give us fifteen hours or so to get the heck of of Kirkwall! ~sigh~ Wouldn't that be nice...

DA:O DLCs were crap, so I personally do not expect that much for DA2. Not that I'd buy it anyways (unless it's uber awesome, which I doubt).
And dear, I am nto sure a 15 hour DLC can exist

[Lunar Savage]

wastelander75 wrote...

Lunar Savage wrote...


What Bioware did with DA 2, to me personally, seems and feels like the wrong direction. Like they did a complete and total 180 on everything the series was built on and for. There are ways to change the existing formula so that they feel new, but are still improvements on what people loved in the first place (Pokemon is perhaps the best running example in the industry). Copy/pasting from Mass Effect however, is not improving things (especially in the case of the dialog wheel, which IMO is the worst thing to ever happen to RPGs). Bioware doesn't seem to understand that you can change without having to pull a 180.

I think going to an Action-Adventure RPG approach from an IP that was based heavily on the tactical/strategy formula is the one big major misstep they took with DA 2. There's nothing wrong with change, as long as it makes sense to the overall core asthetics of the franchise in general. Now, I'll admit DA:O had really sluggish, sometimes frustratingly, slow combat. And I appreciate that DA2 sped that up. What I don't appreciate is the fact that it became a button masher with little to no regard to planning and executing strategic gameplay. ie. setting traps, moving into an ambush spot to funnel large crowds into a narrower line of battle so they don't overwhelm, etc. Instead I have minions dropping from behind me and all around me with little to no explination as to why they suddenly materialized from the walls, the sky, or quite literally at some points, out of thin air.

Agreed. There had to be a way to speed up combat or make it less annoying, while retaining the core strategy element of the combat. My personal suggestion would have been to reduce the number of battles in any given area and spread them out a little more. Focus a bit more on expanding the adventure and role playing side and focus less on combat.

Fewer, but larger, and maybe slightly longer, battles would have been a satisfying experience. Especially if the player realized that once it was over and done, they could relax for a bit before they had to go back into more combat. A stark difference from DA:O where it was lots of small battles in a very short period of time, but each small battle was also absurdly long because of combat speed. I believe my idea would have been great for the game since it retains the style of combat everyone loved, while fixing the pacing/speed issue.

Then again, there are even more ways to fix it beyond what I've presented here. And perhaps more satisfying to a larger audience while still being respectful to what the core was and what the core fans loved. But ultimately, Bioware did neither. Instead, they spat on the core fans and turned the gameplay upside down. :/

[DragonRageGT]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

Plus the overall lack of attention to detail that was so evident in DA:O the history of weapons armours books in libraries that made that game a pleasure to play.

Silverman said they were useless...

But yea, agreed. They added life to the lore. 

And what I find weird is that ME2 also had an attention to detail, both visual and otherwise. Sometimes to absurd levels (who gives a damn about the garbage disposal in Zaeed's room?). So I am not sure why the DA team thought we were so moronic that we don't need "useless" details.

LOL... I spent hours disposing of the Normandy garbage in Zaeed's room! =)

And I read most Journal entries, including Codexes, when they are interesting like Dandelion's masterpiece journal for TW2.  I tried to with Origins but it was too confusing. I read them all, enjoyed them but it was a PITA to search for some specific information. DA2 did it better but with much less style!

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

hoorayforicecream has said many insightful things regarding dev time and how it impacts profits

IIRC, she stated it this way.

The biggest cost for a game is salary. A development group of 200 people paid 50,000 annual is $10 million a year.

1 year: $10 mill
2 year: $20 mill
3 year: $30 mill
4 year: $40 mill

A game that takes four years to make needs have at least four times as many sales as one that takes one year, or it's not as profitable.

If DA 2 has half the sales of DA:O, it's still more profitable.

Yup, indeed (thanks for summarizin ).

Time is money. Less time spent is less money spent, which is less cost that has to be recouped by sales to turn a profit.

[Lunar Savage]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

UnspokenSoul22 wrote...
Hm. I'm trying to think what this new DLC might include. It'll probably represent something of Awakening, no? I bet BW's going to try to appease their buyers by letting you journey out of Kirkwall and maybe sperad your influence to other parts of the world. Perhaps they'll let you go back to Lothering. Who knows?

I really just hope it's not some half-baked potato--erm, attempt at getting fans back into the series. Hopefully, it's relatively cheap and provides at least a couple hours of gameplay? It'd even be better to see them make an epilogue of sorts for DA2. Give us fifteen hours or so to get the heck of of Kirkwall! ~sigh~ Wouldn't that be nice...

DA:O DLCs were crap, so I personally do not expect that much for DA2. Not that I'd buy it anyways (unless it's uber awesome, which I doubt).
And dear, I am nto sure a 15 hour DLC can exist

Shivering Isles was a pretty damn good DLC that lasted me at least 20 hours. IMO, SI set the bar for what all DLC should aspire to be. And sadly, not many companies even attempt to meet that bar. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria Caliban wrote...
If DA 2 has half the sales of DA:O, it's still more profitable.

Of course an important question is long term profits and the profitability of the franchise as a whole as well.
Short term thinking like this  could harm the franchise in the long run. EA probably wouldn't care though, they have many more cows to milk.

[devil_foetus]

DA2 really swore me off the whole franchise. And if ME3 goes down a similar path it'll be the last BioWare game I buy.

[SoulRebel_1979]

DA2 was very innovative because it used new compression techniques.

[Bejos_]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
If DA 2 has half the sales of DA:O, it's still more profitable.

Of course an important question is long term profits and the profitability of the franchise as a whole as well.
Short term thinking like this  could harm the franchise in the long run. EA probably wouldn't care though, they have many more cows to milk.

And they're $2 billion in the red, so ... quantity over quality, at this point.

[UnspokenSoul22]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DA:O DLCs were crap, so I personally do not expect that much for DA2. Not that I'd buy it anyways (unless it's uber awesome, which I doubt).
And dear, I am nto sure a 15 hour DLC can exist {smilie}

~sniff~ Don't kill my dream. Please. I can hope for something that won't happen and it'll still come true!...As long as I wish on a star. Hehehe.

I did like DA2, but I'm left wanting a little more.

Maybe DA just needs some other force behind it, instead of BW. Treyarch didn't do too bad with COD: Black OPs. I'm not saying get Bethesda on board but someone else! Eh, eh? Major changes like that aren't always bad.

-edit- I was unimpressed by the ME3 demo at E3. The combat system looked crisper, with the new evasion roll, etc. Something just feels...wrong. I hope BW pulls through with the final segment of Shepard's adventure.

I agree with the wisdom below!

Modifié par UnspokenSoul22, 17 juin 2011 - 08:46 .

[Wulfram]

I think the vociferousness of a lot of the criticism shows that people still care about the franchise. If Bioware puts out a high quality product, people will get excited and the fans will come back.

[Tsuga C]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Of course an important question is long term profits and the profitability of the franchise as a whole as well.
Short term thinking like this  could harm the franchise in the long run. EA probably wouldn't care though, they have many more cows to milk run into the ground, shrug callously over its demise, and move on from.

Corrected. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tsuga C wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Of course an important question is long term profits and the profitability of the franchise as a whole as well.
Short term thinking like this  could harm the franchise in the long run. EA probably wouldn't care though, they have many more cows to milk run into the ground, shrug callously over its demise, and move on from.

Corrected. 

Command and Conquer

I am still bleeding from it.

[Nerevar-as]

UnspokenSoul22 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DA:O DLCs were crap, so I personally do not expect that much for DA2. Not that I'd buy it anyways (unless it's uber awesome, which I doubt).
And dear, I am nto sure a 15 hour DLC can exist {smilie}

~sniff~ Don't kill my dream. Please. I can hope for something that won't happen and it'll still come true!...As long as I wish on a star. Hehehe.

I did like DA2, but I'm left wanting a little more.

Maybe DA just needs some other force behind it, instead of BW. Treyarch didn't do too bad with COD: Black OPs. I'm not saying get Bethesda on board but someone else! Eh, eh? Major changes like that aren't always bad.

I would say that´s exactly what happened to DA2. Maybe without EA pressure the game would have had 3 acts with overarching plot, a few less stereotyped characters and combat design not consisiting of being zerged.

The story still felt more something more appropiate for an expansion. The only significant events start as the game ends.

[hoorayforicecream]

Bejos_ wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I wouldn't go to a restaurant like that a second time. But that's not how Bioware treated me. I got a game I thought was fun and interesting, with some stuff that wasn't so good, but I'm willing to forgive it.

Maybe they forgot the worcestershire sauce. Maybe the meat was a little overdone. Maybe you were really reallyREALLY looking forward to that worcestershire sauce and forgetting the worcestershire is some sort of INEXCUSABLE INSULT THAT WILL HAUNT YOU FOREVER. I don't know. I didn't really care that much about the worcestershire sauce, I still got full, and I was reasonably satisfied with the game. I'm sorry you weren't.

What I don't get is why you keep coming to the restaurant you clearly dislike and telling the customers who frequent it that it sucks. One would think that there would be better ways to spend time, like trying new restaurants.

I'm a student. I go onto forums during my study breaks. It's something to do. (It's also a procrastination tool.)

Okay, so you thought it was a subpar product that just had some of the condiments missing. Great.

But what Bioware is doing right now, is the equivalent of a restauranteur being interviewed, and stating in his interview that some of his regular customers "just aren't forward-looking enough to understand or appreciate the cooking style". He further goes on to say:
"I'm quite disappointed in them really. How entitled is that of them? How could they come into my restaurant and give me $60 dollars with the expectation of a a three-course meal, and then get angry at me when I only give them one? How dare they? Why are they so entitled?"

A restaurant would immediately go out of its way to correct its mishaps-- free of charge. Is any of that happening here?

I never saw Muzyka say that he was disappointed in anyone, or even anything negative at all. His actual words were:

"But also there were a lot of fans of the original Dragon Age: Origins who weren't as happy with it. Maybe they were looking for more of the same, and it was different and innovative in ways they weren't expecting.

You're putting words in his mouth because of how you feel about the subject, and that's not a good thing. I get it. You're not happy with it. DA2. Maybe it was because was different and innovative in ways many weren't expecting (dialogue wheel, little customization for companions, crafitng system, all bisexual romances, etc.). Maybe it was because of other things that annoyed you (inventory system, wave combat, recycled zones, etc.) instead. I don't know. You're entitled to dislike them. But if you project your feelings onto things that aren't there, you only do yourself a disservice, because you're talking about defying a mythical evil overlord who doesn't really exist.

As for what they've been doing lately, to fix it? There have been 3 fairly comprehensive bug fix patches that have addressed a fairly large number of the initial problems. The developers are here on the forums listening to feedback and making themselves heard, despite the large amounts of vitriol some angry fans are fond of slinging. And they are giving interviews and posting to the DA2 forums 3 months after launch to say "Yes, we have heard your complaints and wish to address them."

Like so:

"We take the feedback of all of our fans, our core fans particularly, really seriously. We're committed to trying to address that feedback.

I know what it's like to develop games, because I've been doing so for a while now. I know how long it takes to enact certain changes, and to create content. Given what I know about their situation, I'm ok with what's going on. Bioware currently has a lot riding on TOR and ME3, so those two are the shining stars in their world. DA2 fixes and DLC are coming, but they may not come as soon as you like because of the focus on TOR and ME2.

Things take time. I'm doing other things while I wait, like playing other games. Perhaps you could do the same.

[Nerevar-as]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tsuga C wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Of course an important question is long term profits and the profitability of the franchise as a whole as well.
Short term thinking like this  could harm the franchise in the long run. EA probably wouldn't care though, they have many more cows to milk run into the ground, shrug callously over its demise, and move on from.

Corrected. 

Command and Conquer

I am still bleeding from it.

4 was that bad?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nerevar-as wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Command and Conquer

I am still bleeding from it.

4 was that bad?

Yes.

Oh yes.

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.


...yes.

[Bejos_]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I wouldn't go to a restaurant like that a second time. But that's not how Bioware treated me. I got a game I thought was fun and interesting, with some stuff that wasn't so good, but I'm willing to forgive it.

Maybe they forgot the worcestershire sauce. Maybe the meat was a little overdone. Maybe you were really reallyREALLY looking forward to that worcestershire sauce and forgetting the worcestershire is some sort of INEXCUSABLE INSULT THAT WILL HAUNT YOU FOREVER. I don't know. I didn't really care that much about the worcestershire sauce, I still got full, and I was reasonably satisfied with the game. I'm sorry you weren't.

What I don't get is why you keep coming to the restaurant you clearly dislike and telling the customers who frequent it that it sucks. One would think that there would be better ways to spend time, like trying new restaurants.

I'm a student. I go onto forums during my study breaks. It's something to do. (It's also a procrastination tool.)

Okay, so you thought it was a subpar product that just had some of the condiments missing. Great.

But what Bioware is doing right now, is the equivalent of a restauranteur being interviewed, and stating in his interview that some of his regular customers "just aren't forward-looking enough to understand or appreciate the cooking style". He further goes on to say:
"I'm quite disappointed in them really. How entitled is that of them? How could they come into my restaurant and give me $60 dollars with the expectation of a a three-course meal, and then get angry at me when I only give them one? How dare they? Why are they so entitled?"

A restaurant would immediately go out of its way to correct its mishaps-- free of charge. Is any of that happening here?

I never saw Muzyka say that he was disappointed in anyone, or even anything negative at all. His actual words were:

"But also there were a lot of fans of the original Dragon Age: Origins who weren't as happy with it. Maybe they were looking for more of the same, and it was different and innovative in ways they weren't expecting.

You're putting words in his mouth because of how you feel about the subject, and that's not a good thing. I get it. You're not happy with it. DA2. Maybe it was because was different and innovative in ways many weren't expecting (dialogue wheel, little customization for companions, crafitng system, all bisexual romances, etc.). Maybe it was because of other things that annoyed you (inventory system, wave combat, recycled zones, etc.) instead. I don't know. You're entitled to dislike them. But if you project your feelings onto things that aren't there, you only do yourself a disservice, because you're talking about defying a mythical evil overlord who doesn't really exist.

As for what they've been doing lately, to fix it? There have been 3 fairly comprehensive bug fix patches that have addressed a fairly large number of the initial problems. The developers are here on the forums listening to feedback and making themselves heard, despite the large amounts of vitriol some angry fans are fond of slinging. And they are giving interviews and posting to the DA2 forums 3 months after launch to say "Yes, we have heard your complaints and wish to address them."

Like so:

"We take the feedback of all of our fans, our core fans particularly, really seriously. We're committed to trying to address that feedback.

I know what it's like to develop games, because I've been doing so for a while now. I know how long it takes to enact certain changes, and to create content. Given what I know about their situation, I'm ok with what's going on. Bioware currently has a lot riding on TOR and ME3, so those two are the shining stars in their world. DA2 fixes and DLC are coming, but they may not come as soon as you like because of the focus on TOR and ME2.

Things take time. I'm doing other things while I wait, like playing other games. Perhaps you could do the same.

I wasn't putting words in his mouth. I was talking about the Bioware/EA marketing/PR machine in general. There was no projection going on. Please don't assume things.

I'm not waiting for changes. "Goodbye Bioware". (No, not because of a stupid game. I can see they've no intention of making RPGs, so I'm moving on.)
Consider, also, that what they're saying and what they're doing may well be two completely different things.

[dcinroc]

Leaving aside the relative mertis of DA2, I think Bioware/EA shot themselves in the foot with their marketing. When you take a game as well received as DA:O, which has a particular style and type of gameplay, then you produce a different type game with a "2" slapped on it, you are setting yourself up for trouble.

Had DA2 not been billed as a sequel, but rather its own standalone game set within the same mythic world, then it may have created more space to be judged more solely on its own merits. Of course, that would mean that game would have to be sold on its own merits with less chance to cash in on its cousin.

Most people can't/don't/won't play the demo. Nor are they following the daily saga of game development on internet forums.

[Aeowyn]

Stanley Woo wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I assume that the "Innovation" referred to things like the shift from a silent protagonist to a voiced protagonist or the structure of the narrative - and yes, even the wheel, plus tonal icons. Whether or not you agree with the supposed innovations, it seems that they have taken notice of the criticisms, or does the part where Muzyka says they're going to try to address some of the issues the old fans have had with DA2 and satisfy old and new fans not count? Not that I really give a flying fig about "old" fans who still have their knickers in a twist about the game and are yet again upset about something someone at BioWare said.

Some people just want to argue because they really wanted to like Dragon Age II and didn't, and they're blaming everyone and everything so they won't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, Dragon Age II might not be for them. This i why, despite all the accusations and rants and name-calling and quote-mining and misrepresentation of developer responses, they keep coming back--simply put, they want to like the next game we release.

And that's okay, as long as respect and courtesy are still maintained on this forum.

Couldn't agree more with this post. Unfortunately, as someone who liked the game I've found the name calling ridiculous. Some friends can't even bloody state in a status that they enjoy DA2 without getting it filled with hate.

[UnspokenSoul22]

I continue to think that the gist of the story hasn't even been revealed to us yet. Too much of the game seems like a "sister" game to DA:O. Not in terms of the game, but the message.

DA:O and DA2 are leading us somewhere, and that somewhere is right smack dab in the middle of a mage-templar war. I seriously don't think Hawke will be the frontrunner for DA3, I really don't. He/she might be in the scheme of things, like the Wardens made an appearance in this game, but not the main focus.

Something else has to happen to the Qunari, now. In addition, Morrigan is alive, according to Flem....She'll have to return sometime. Expectations are high for DA3.

Modifié par UnspokenSoul22, 17 juin 2011 - 09:00 .

[cmessaz]

Aeowyn wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I assume that the "Innovation" referred to things like the shift from a silent protagonist to a voiced protagonist or the structure of the narrative - and yes, even the wheel, plus tonal icons. Whether or not you agree with the supposed innovations, it seems that they have taken notice of the criticisms, or does the part where Muzyka says they're going to try to address some of the issues the old fans have had with DA2 and satisfy old and new fans not count? Not that I really give a flying fig about "old" fans who still have their knickers in a twist about the game and are yet again upset about something someone at BioWare said.

Some people just want to argue because they really wanted to like Dragon Age II and didn't, and they're blaming everyone and everything so they won't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, Dragon Age II might not be for them. This i why, despite all the accusations and rants and name-calling and quote-mining and misrepresentation of developer responses, they keep coming back--simply put, they want to like the next game we release.

And that's okay, as long as respect and courtesy are still maintained on this forum.

Couldn't agree more with this post. Unfortunately, as someone who liked the game I've found the name calling ridiculous. Some friends can't even bloody state in a status that they enjoy DA2 without getting it filled with hate.

This is my problem too. It's really silly to me.

I love the game, and of my friends that played DAO, most like DA2 as well, some more than others. Many have issues, gripes, etc. But they didn't hate the game. I can only think of a couple people I know who did outright dislike it. So I really don't understand that "most DAO fans hated DA2" thing at all.

[Master Shiori]

Bejos_ wrote...

Not about when DLC will be out

When the DLC is ready and going through certification, they'll let you know. Otherwise you're looking at another RtO fiasco, where Bioware sets down a date and halfway through they need to push iot back because some major bug popped up. And everyone gets frustrated.
So far they're working on it but have no fixed release date to announce. Once they do, they'll let us know.

Bejos_ wrote...

not about when patches will be out

Check the tech support forums. They give regular updates about the issues that are being investigated and fixed and they inform you when a patch is being sent for certification and when it can be expected. They've provided plenty of information about that, but you actually need to do a tiny mouse click and open the topic in question.
Though the reason you'd care about a patch or DLC for a game that you don't even own is beyond me..

Bejos_ wrote...

not about what changes they are definitely going to be making ...

No, because those will be revelaed when the next Dragon Age title is announced. Nobody here has the right to ask for that kind of info. Bioware said they're taking fan feedback into consideration and that it will impact their design decisions going forward. That's all you have the right to know until a concrete project is announced to the public and Bioware is free to go into details about it.