1248 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

UnspokenSoul22 wrote...

I continue to think that the gist of the story hasn't even been revealed to us yet. Too much of the game seems like a "sister" game to DA:O. Not in terms of the game, but the message.

DA:O and DA2 are leading us somewhere, and that somewhere is right smack dab in the middle of a mage-templar war. I seriously don't think Hawke will be the frontrunner for DA3, I really don't. He/she might be in the scheme of things, like the Wardens made an appearance in this game, but not the main focus.

Something else has to happen to the Qunari, now. In addition, Morrigan is alive, according to Flem....She'll have to return sometime. Expectations are high for DA3.

The M/T war will happen with the Qunari. I don´t think they´ll miss such an obvious opening. On the other side there´s whatever Avernus found out, but GW bussiness issues should be dealt with by GW.

[In Exile]

Pasquale1234 wrote...
Interesting data, but very much subject to interpretation.  It is entirely possible that some of the "new fans" who enjoyed DA2 have since decided to purchase DAO, thinking they would enjoy it as well - thus boosting DAO sales.  I would imagine that BioWare would have some indication of these purchase patterns via owner registration.

I'm not surprised that they refer to DA2 as a commercial success - partly due to the pr machine, but also the fact that it took much less time and probably a much smaller budget to develop.  Even with the smaller sales volume, it may have been more profitable than DAO.

In the process of gaining these "new fans", they blew a lot of the goodwill of DAO fans.  Whether this will turn out to be a net gain or net loss remains to be seen...

Look at it this way: DA:O took very many years to develop and involved a specific design philosophy that Bioware no longer executes. Put another way, Bioware doesn't want to design DA:O ever again. DA:O is a project like BGII, and it started in 2004 (or was it 2005?) when the game marketplace was dramatically different than in 2010. It started DA:O as an in-house project shopping around for a publisher, instead of as a subsidiary of EA.

It's really, really clear from games like KoTOR, JE, ME-ME2, that Bioware isn't in the business of making a game like DA:O. Losing the audience that won't cross-over from DA:O to the KoTOR - ME2 style of games isn't a loss, in the sense that Bioware doesn't want to cater to that group

[Bejos_]

cmessaz wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I assume that the "Innovation" referred to things like the shift from a silent protagonist to a voiced protagonist or the structure of the narrative - and yes, even the wheel, plus tonal icons. Whether or not you agree with the supposed innovations, it seems that they have taken notice of the criticisms, or does the part where Muzyka says they're going to try to address some of the issues the old fans have had with DA2 and satisfy old and new fans not count? Not that I really give a flying fig about "old" fans who still have their knickers in a twist about the game and are yet again upset about something someone at BioWare said.

Some people just want to argue because they really wanted to like Dragon Age II and didn't, and they're blaming everyone and everything so they won't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, Dragon Age II might not be for them. This i why, despite all the accusations and rants and name-calling and quote-mining and misrepresentation of developer responses, they keep coming back--simply put, they want to like the next game we release.

And that's okay, as long as respect and courtesy are still maintained on this forum.

Couldn't agree more with this post. Unfortunately, as someone who liked the game I've found the name calling ridiculous. Some friends can't even bloody state in a status that they enjoy DA2 without getting it filled with hate.

This is my problem too. It's really silly to me.

I love the game, and of my friends that played DAO, most like DA2 as well, some more than others. Many have issues, gripes, etc. But they didn't hate the game. I can only think of a couple people I know who did outright dislike it. So I really don't understand that "most DAO fans hated DA2" thing at all.

I just looked up the DA2 facebook page. It seems pretty tame. Mostly, people are singing the game's praises to heaven and back.

?

I thought there would be a lot more vitriol there, actually. Time to make some! (I'm kidding, I don't FB.)

[UnspokenSoul22]

I just bought my DA2 used at Gamestop this past Sunday. Not sure if I should just return it or wait for the expansion pack/DLC. I'd hate to find out the DLC was ridiculously good, or be stuck with the game until the next 50% credit promotion.

Any advice? I only paid about thirty bucks for it...

-edit- The future of DA is pretty much up in the air. It's all how BW reponses to their fans and if their DLC is better than mediocre.

I've only heard of The Witcher...Just watched TW2's trailer and it looks phenominal. Best game of 2011? Looks like it'll stand as a contender to Bioshock and the other anticipated games.

Modifié par UnspokenSoul22, 17 juin 2011 - 09:13 .

[Nerevar-as]

In Exile wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...
Interesting data, but very much subject to interpretation.  It is entirely possible that some of the "new fans" who enjoyed DA2 have since decided to purchase DAO, thinking they would enjoy it as well - thus boosting DAO sales.  I would imagine that BioWare would have some indication of these purchase patterns via owner registration.

I'm not surprised that they refer to DA2 as a commercial success - partly due to the pr machine, but also the fact that it took much less time and probably a much smaller budget to develop.  Even with the smaller sales volume, it may have been more profitable than DAO.

In the process of gaining these "new fans", they blew a lot of the goodwill of DAO fans.  Whether this will turn out to be a net gain or net loss remains to be seen...

Look at it this way: DA:O took very many years to develop and involved a specific design philosophy that Bioware no longer executes. Put another way, Bioware doesn't want to design DA:O ever again. DA:O is a project like BGII, and it started in 2004 (or was it 2005?) when the game marketplace was dramatically different than in 2010. It started DA:O as an in-house project shopping around for a publisher, instead of as a subsidiary of EA.

It's really, really clear from games like KoTOR, JE, ME-ME2, that Bioware isn't in the business of making a game like DA:O. Losing the audience that won't cross-over from DA:O to the KoTOR - ME2 style of games isn't a loss, in the sense that Bioware doesn't want to cater to that group

Yet DA:O is their most successful game so far. So what am I missing here?

[Addai]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I know what it's like to develop games, because I've been doing so for a while now. I know how long it takes to enact certain changes, and to create content. Given what I know about their situation, I'm ok with what's going on. Bioware currently has a lot riding on TOR and ME3, so those two are the shining stars in their world. DA2 fixes and DLC are coming, but they may not come as soon as you like because of the focus on TOR and ME2.

Things take time. I'm doing other things while I wait, like playing other games. Perhaps you could do the same.

By "okay with it," do you mean you care about those other two games?  I suppose that would help the pill go down more easily.

As for playing other games etc.- I doubt the people complaining the most about DA2 are clutching to their DA2 disks in suspended animation doing nothing else.  More like checking the forum to see if anything makes it worth putting the game back on their hard drive.

[In Exile]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
We're not just talking about reused areas either. The plot fails in many places, the vast amount of retcons, the wave encounters. Trying to make it sound like it's just people complaining about reused areas is laughable. I'm sure you can do better than that.

Yeah, but these are the flaws inherited from DA:O. I think DA2 is an amazing game, in the sense that people were so unwilling to give it slack based on Bioware's name that they suddenly caught on to the flaws in Bioware's presentation, in the same way that ME2 let disenchanted ME1 fans realize those same flaws.

Don't get me wrong - DA2 executed badly. DA:O executed well. But the flaws you're pointing out are there in DA:O - you're just not willing to excuse DA2 for them.

DA:O has many of the same structural problems (in terms of the inconsistency of the plot, the atmosphere and construction of the game and the lore, the progression of characters and events, and the limitation of choice) but the game is just well received, and so these things don't get the same attention.

[Bejos_]

Master Shiori wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

Not about when DLC will be out

When the DLC is ready and going through certification, they'll let you know. Otherwise you're looking at another RtO fiasco, where Bioware sets down a date and halfway through they need to push iot back because some major bug popped up. And everyone gets frustrated.
So far they're working on it but have no fixed release date to announce. Once they do, they'll let us know.

Bejos_ wrote...

not about when patches will be out

Check the tech support forums. They give regular updates about the issues that are being investigated and fixed and they inform you when a patch is being sent for certification and when it can be expected. They've provided plenty of information about that, but you actually need to do a tiny mouse click and open the topic in question.
Though the reason you'd care about a patch or DLC for a game that you don't even own is beyond me..

Bejos_ wrote...

not about what changes they are definitely going to be making ...

No, because those will be revelaed when the next Dragon Age title is announced. Nobody here has the right to ask for that kind of info. Bioware said they're taking fan feedback into consideration and that it will impact their design decisions going forward. That's all you have the right to know until a concrete project is announced to the public and Bioware is free to go into details about it.

What I'm saying is that fans would not be near as PO'd as they are, if they had something concrete to hope for. At the moment, all it is, is "We're working on it. Wait. We're making a patch-- no, we don't know when it'll be out, wait. We're making DLC that's addressing the problems [but we're not going to tell you what those problems are, specifically]. We're not telling you when it's coming out, though. Wait."
The people that are angry want to see that something concrete is being done. All reassurances thus far have been incredibly vague. It's not going to appease them. At least set a date for ... something, anything.

[Maverick827]

Bejos_ wrote...

No, not because of a stupid game. I can see they've no intention of making RPGs, so I'm moving on.

I'm surprised you were able to state this thought so succinctly. What happened to your omelet-based debating strategy? It seemed to be working well for you.

[In Exile]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Yet DA:O is their most successful game so far. So what am I missing here?

It sold the mosts. But that doesn't make it the most profitable.

More generally, what you're missing is Bioware doesn't make these games. As a design philosophy. That's why I pointed to every single console game they've made since NWN.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UnspokenSoul22 wrote...
I've only heard of The Witcher...Just watched TW2's trailer and it looks phenominal. Best game of 2011? Looks like it'll stand as a contender to Bioshock and the other anticipated games.

I know we've just determined that we can't agree at all (), but I highly recommend TW2.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They are still not addressing the core issues. Not that I expect them to to the press, it's hard to say that they rushed the game to meet the deadline.

It would be illegal, potentially. Shareholders could sue, unless there was an actual strategy in place for how this would positively impact EA instead of further tank their reputation as a brand. Saying - the executives of EA force us to release our games early (as EA is trying to standardize a 2-year cycle for all their products) is as close to career suicide as you can get.

[UnspokenSoul22]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I know we've just determined that we can't agree at all (), but I highly recommend TW2.

I think I'll take your word for it. Eh, we probably don't disagree about everything! For example, Bioshock 1/2 totally whump on Uncharted 1/2. XD

I'll quote someone from a few pages back..."Blasphemy!" Uh huh. I'm the queen of it~!

Darn my PS3 and Sony! Why can't we have TW2 yet?

[KnightofPhoenix]

UnspokenSoul22 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I know we've just determined that we can't agree at all (), but I highly recommend TW2.

I think I'll take your word for it. Eh, we probably don't disagree about everything! For example, Bioshock 1/2 totally whump on Uncharted 1/2. XD

Word of warning though. The game is going to kick your ass.
Even on easy (so I was told, I play on hard).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 juin 2011 - 09:23 .

[Thor Rand Al]

cmessaz wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I assume that the "Innovation" referred to things like the shift from a silent protagonist to a voiced protagonist or the structure of the narrative - and yes, even the wheel, plus tonal icons. Whether or not you agree with the supposed innovations, it seems that they have taken notice of the criticisms, or does the part where Muzyka says they're going to try to address some of the issues the old fans have had with DA2 and satisfy old and new fans not count? Not that I really give a flying fig about "old" fans who still have their knickers in a twist about the game and are yet again upset about something someone at BioWare said.

Some people just want to argue because they really wanted to like Dragon Age II and didn't, and they're blaming everyone and everything so they won't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, Dragon Age II might not be for them. This i why, despite all the accusations and rants and name-calling and quote-mining and misrepresentation of developer responses, they keep coming back--simply put, they want to like the next game we release.

And that's okay, as long as respect and courtesy are still maintained on this forum.

Couldn't agree more with this post. Unfortunately, as someone who liked the game I've found the name calling ridiculous. Some friends can't even bloody state in a status that they enjoy DA2 without getting it filled with hate.

This is my problem too. It's really silly to me.

I love the game, and of my friends that played DAO, most like DA2 as well, some more than others. Many have issues, gripes, etc. But they didn't hate the game. I can only think of a couple people I know who did outright dislike it. So I really don't understand that "most DAO fans hated DA2" thing at all.

Wow kewl, u can actually find a thread where u can say u love DA2 n not get flamed, sweet
I at first I did have issues cause of the way combat was changed, used to love to dw as a warrior but I got over that, I freakin enjoy two-handed, nice abilities lol. I'm actaully prefering this game more then DA:O, I look at vid's from DAO n see that the pc has no voice n sooooo miss that, I love the fact that ya never know what's goin to come out of Hawke's mouth when u pick an option of what to say, makes playing an aggressive Hawke more entertain so to speak
Whatever they decide to change or add in the next DA I really really hope they give the pc a voice n they leave the wheel because it does add more entertainment especially when u don't know what their goin to say n I love surprises like that lol.
Anyways I said my p's n q's, I LOVE DA2 and am not afraid to say it

[UnspokenSoul22]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



Word of warning though. The game is going to kick your ass.

Even on easy (so I was told, I play on hard).

Great. I had to flip on "Casual" a couple times on DA2. Yeah. Embarrassing. Should I get return DA2? I'm just kind of desperate for a good game right now. I have FFXII (gawd awful), Mass Effect 2, Dead Space, and DA2.

~grumbles~ I need some reccomendations...

[Bejos_]

Maverick827 wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

No, not because of a stupid game. I can see they've no intention of making RPGs, so I'm moving on.

I'm surprised you were able to state this thought so succinctly. What happened to your omelet-based debating strategy? It seemed to be working well for you.

My brain's a mushpile at the moment. (Yes, feel free to be snarky ;P.)
There's a slew of things I don't like about DA2. However, if it were just a bland game, and Bioware/EA:
* just admitted this, or just kept quiet and didn't try to so transparently defend their design "philosophy";
* hadn't been moving in this direction (the no-RPG direction) for years and years

I would have stuck with them.

This has been coming for a while, though. I thought they'd eventually have a small, in-house team that bothered with RPGs (even if the budget had to be cut), while the rest of the company did whatever it was Bioware originally wanted to do (pre-BG).

It's clear they want to make action games, and I'm sure I'll be playing them on my friends' Xboxes or PS3s. But I don't like supporting shady companies, and that company isn't even giving me a good enough reason to abandon my principles (i.e. action games are pretty easy to find, so I don't HAVE to stick around just because Bioware's the only company making them.

So Bioware's lost a customer. I'm sure they don't care, and I don't expect them to care.

Erm. I went off on a tangent. I don't know with what it is you were expecting me to respond.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote..
I disagree.
I'll fully agree that codices are not supposed to be integral to the plot, in the sense that you can't understand the game without reading them (cough mystery of Kirkwall cough). And I'll agree that dialogue with characters is a better way to learn things, say like the Antivan Crows or the Qunari.

But, codices can also provide details, that while could be irrelevent to the plot, would still add life to the lore. I especially like how DA codices have authors (ME ones don't), which shows you how some people percieve things. Dialogue is too expensive that having codices to compliment them, is necessary if you want to show more detail when it comes to an issue.

And yes, I read them. If you don't wnat to, that's fine. But just leave them.

I really hate the codex, so let me state my opposition: 

They are the epitome of tell and not show.

Take the cardinal rules of magic - this is something that absolutely enriches the world by being included in the game. It's valuable lore. But it's not lore I want to red about in the added in-game glossary. I wanted it to be told to me by a character, or included in a quest, or a part of the background of an NPC.

Here's a great example: the Dunn Banner in TW2. That quests is one where you do need to gather lore to answer some questions to get a quest item (unless you want to fight). But the lore isn't told to you in a book - you get it from conversations. It's told to you as a story, actively.

I like that. I think the codexes need to die beause they're a low-cost excuse to avoid the technical problem of how to enrich your world actively.

[Melca36]

Considering I have been called a hater for rating the game a 7/8 I would like to point out that it GOES ***both*** ways.

The game is NOT perfect by a long shot but I also agree it DOES NOT warrant the hate that is spewed.

And the people who love it so much and diminish Origins by declaring their hate for it are doing no favors to their cause.

So like I said...it goes BOTH ways.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UnspokenSoul22 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



Word of warning though. The game is going to kick your ass.

Even on easy (so I was told, I play on hard).

Great. I had to flip on "Casual" a couple times on DA2. Yeah. Embarrassing. Should I get return DA2? I'm just kind of desperate for a good game right now. I have FFXII (gawd awful), Mass Effect 2, Dead Space, and DA2.

~grumbles~ I need some reccomendations...

Not the most unbiased opinion, but I'd return DA2, save up some cash and get TW2, Arkham City and the other games that are coming up fall 2011 and 2012 (if you'e an FPS fan, Prey 2 looks promising).

[Bejos_]

UnspokenSoul22 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Word of warning though. The game is going to kick your ass.

Even on easy (so I was told, I play on hard).

Great. I had to flip on "Casual" a couple times on DA2. Yeah. Embarrassing. Should I get return DA2? I'm just kind of desperate for a good game right now. I have FFXII (gawd awful), Mass Effect 2, Dead Space, and DA2.

~grumbles~ I need some reccomendations...

Erm ... Angry Birds. I didn't like it, but it's very popular. It's also easy.

[John Epler]

It should be mentioned that there's always going to be a bit of reticence on our part to make wide, sweeping promises about what particular feedback we're going to take into consideration and exactly what changes will be made with future installments. If we say 'yes, of course we're going to do X to fix Y, because Y wasn't received well' and then, in the process of developing future content, we discover that 'oh crud, we can't do Y because of Z which we totally weren't considering' then we will (quite rightly) be taken to task on this failure to deliver.

And in the end, we can sit on this forum pouring honeyed words into your ears and telling you 'you know what, guys, we're going to fix X, Y and Z because we think you guys are just swell and aren't we awesome as a result?', but, like they say in pretty much every realm of human interaction - actions speak louder than words. Whatever we tell you we're going to fix will be, understandably, viewed with a certain amount of skepticism if you felt DA2 was not a product you enjoyed. And, to be fair, there are going to be some fans who will not enjoy our next product, even if we address some of the concerns that people had as a result of DA2. That's unfortunate, but anytime you make changes you have to be willing to deal with the consequences.

So, rather than saying 'guys, we're going to do this and this' we're going to let our products speak for us. Some of what people weren't happy with will be addressed. Some of it will not, because the list of 'everyone wanted these things addressed' items is very small, and items on the 'some people want these things addressed' list need to be viewed carefully in the perspective of the design philosophy as a whole, as well as the reasons for the negative reaction - some of which is a result of how the idea is presented, a concept every bit as important as the idea itself.

But it's not perfect, and we'll never please everyone. Heck, I doubt you can find more than a handful of things that everyone on the project agrees on. In the end, what we create will have to stand on its own merits. Some people will like it. Some people won't. And we'll, as always, look at what worked and what didn't and let that inform our design philosophy going forward.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...
I really hate the codex, so let me state my opposition: 

They are the epitome of tell and not show.

[snip]

I think the codexes need to die beause they're a low-cost excuse to avoid the technical problem of how to enrich your world actively.

Oh I definitely agree that they should not be a replacement to active story telling, and / or "showing".
Ideally, I'd much rather have the codices only report what was already told by characters, in case we forget. 

But what I was arguing is the practicality. I am not sure it would be possible to delve into a lot of detail concerning all issues (especially ones not directly relevent to the plot) just via characters and quests, without it being expensive (VO and all).  But like I said, ideally, nothing would please me more than talking about lore, and seeing elements of the lore (for instance, I really loved Kal Hirol from Awakening. Or the dream sequences in TW2, or just the way the battle of Vergen was told and shown).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 juin 2011 - 09:37 .

[Aaleel]

In Exile wrote...

I really hate the codex, so let me state my opposition: 

They are the epitome of tell and not show.

Take the cardinal rules of magic - this is something that absolutely enriches the world by being included in the game. It's valuable lore. But it's not lore I want to red about in the added in-game glossary. I wanted it to be told to me by a character, or included in a quest, or a part of the background of an NPC.

Here's a great example: the Dunn Banner in TW2. That quests is one where you do need to gather lore to answer some questions to get a quest item (unless you want to fight). But the lore isn't told to you in a book - you get it from conversations. It's told to you as a story, actively.

I like that. I think the codexes need to die beause they're a low-cost excuse to avoid the technical problem of how to enrich your world actively.

I disagree with this.  There are some things like the "Enigma of Kirkwall" in DA2 that should have been shown in the game.  Hawke finding the chamber the Tevinter used would have been great, and explained a lot.

But side things like the history of some things, or people,  or things that don't really tie into the game I still like to read about.  Like reading about the previous blights in Origins, or about a specific piece of armor or a weapon.

I don't need NPCs stopping and saying "Do you know the history of this weapon" all throughout the game.  But it is nice to be able to read about the lore on my own time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aaleel wrote...
I don't need NPCs stopping and saying "Do you know the history of this weapon" all throughout the game.  But it is nice to be able to read about the lore on my own time.

I actualy would like that personally. It would help make the ocmpanions feel mroe alive and responsive to what you do.