1248 réponses à ce sujet

[Stanley Woo]

magicwins wrote...
They could easily characterize what was received well and what wasn't right now. And even if they're unwilling to go that far, acknowledging that their choices led to poor sales

Having absolutely no knowledge of Dragon Age II's budget, sales projections, or specific sales numbers, I doubt you can make that claim, let alone force us to announce them to you to prove anything. Insisting that we do so to justify or rationalize your negative perception of the game is a little silly. Four or five different developers have already acknowledged that the game isn't 100% awesomesauce, have confirmed that feedback has been listened to and will be considered, and announced an intention to try and make future games better for everyone.

Telling us that we can't/shouldn't be proud of what we have accomplished, whether you agree with it or not, makes it sound like your're throwing a tantrum. We have acknowledged our lack of 100% awesomeness. Can you be just as big and admit there are things about Dragon Age II that BioWare can and should be proud of?

[magicwins]

Morroian wrote...

magicwins wrote...
They could easily characterize what was received well and what wasn't right now. And even if they're unwilling to go that far, acknowledging that their choices led to poor sales, 

They have actually pretty much done that after you put their statements through the PR filter.

Yeah. I dislike dancing about the PR bush and making disingenuous assertions. Aka I've seen other people being clear and EA has repeatedly been as unclear as it can be about everything. Especially when I'm trying to understand whether I should care about the franchise anymore, this pointless PR babble only serves to annoy me.

[Persephone]

JohnEpler wrote...

It should be mentioned that there's always going to be a bit of reticence on our part to make wide, sweeping promises about what particular feedback we're going to take into consideration and exactly what changes will be made with future installments. If we say 'yes, of course we're going to do X to fix Y, because Y wasn't received well' and then, in the process of developing future content, we discover that 'oh crud, we can't do Y because of Z which we totally weren't considering' then we will (quite rightly) be taken to task on this failure to deliver.

And in the end, we can sit on this forum pouring honeyed words into your ears and telling you 'you know what, guys, we're going to fix X, Y and Z because we think you guys are just swell and aren't we awesome as a result?', but, like they say in pretty much every realm of human interaction - actions speak louder than words. Whatever we tell you we're going to fix will be, understandably, viewed with a certain amount of skepticism if you felt DA2 was not a product you enjoyed. And, to be fair, there are going to be some fans who will not enjoy our next product, even if we address some of the concerns that people had as a result of DA2. That's unfortunate, but anytime you make changes you have to be willing to deal with the consequences.

So, rather than saying 'guys, we're going to do this and this' we're going to let our products speak for us. Some of what people weren't happy with will be addressed. Some of it will not, because the list of 'everyone wanted these things addressed' items is very small, and items on the 'some people want these things addressed' list need to be viewed carefully in the perspective of the design philosophy as a whole, as well as the reasons for the negative reaction - some of which is a result of how the idea is presented, a concept every bit as important as the idea itself.

But it's not perfect, and we'll never please everyone. Heck, I doubt you can find more than a handful of things that everyone on the project agrees on. In the end, what we create will have to stand on its own merits. Some people will like it. Some people won't. And we'll, as always, look at what worked and what didn't and let that inform our design philosophy going forward.

Bravo. Well said. *Persephone approves +150*

[Persephone]

Stanley Woo wrote...

magicwins wrote...
They could easily characterize what was received well and what wasn't right now. And even if they're unwilling to go that far, acknowledging that their choices led to poor sales

Having absolutely no knowledge of Dragon Age II's budget, sales projections, or specific sales numbers, I doubt you can make that claim, let alone force us to announce them to you to prove anything. Insisting that we do so to justify or rationalize your negative perception of the game is a little silly. Four or five different developers have already acknowledged that the game isn't 100% awesomesauce, have confirmed that feedback has been listened to and will be considered, and announced an intention to try and make future games better for everyone.

Telling us that we can't/shouldn't be proud of what we have accomplished, whether you agree with it or not, makes it sound like your're throwing a tantrum. We have acknowledged our lack of 100% awesomeness. Can you be just as big and admit there are things about Dragon Age II that BioWare can and should be proud of?

What? People asking you to treat them like infallible demi-gods should treat you with a smidge of respect and courtesy?

No way, how irrational!

[magicwins]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Telling us that we can't/shouldn't be proud of what we have accomplished, whether you agree with it or not, makes it sound like your're throwing a tantrum. We have acknowledged our lack of 100% awesomeness. Can you be just as big and admit there are things about Dragon Age II that BioWare can and should be proud of?

Of course I'm ranting. I never claimed otherwise. Then again, I never said you shouldn't be proud of your work. I mentioned areas of DA2 that I was particularly impressed by, such as the cinematics. All I said was that if I was a dev, I would not be happy to ship a product that I saw as unfinished in many ways, especially when I knew my team was capable of better. I do not presume to understand your working conditions, or speak for you in any way, I just tried to put myself in your place and asked myself if I would be satisfied with the overall lack of awesomeness in my product.

Modifié par magicwins, 17 juin 2011 - 11:52 .

[cmessaz]

Stanley Woo wrote...
We have acknowledged our lack of 100% awesomeness.

Just cutting in for a sec....

No..in my opinion it was about 98% awesomeness. You guys don't hear that often enough. Good job and thanks for another great game!

Now...carry on!

[Persephone]

cmessaz wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
We have acknowledged our lack of 100% awesomeness.

Just cutting in for a sec....

No..in my opinion it was about 98% awesomeness. You guys don't hear that often enough. Good job and thanks for another great game!

Now...carry on!

What she said.

And Cmessaz, I cannot wait to get my greedy paws on your DAII mods.

[Bejos_]

Morroian wrote...

Have you answered the question about why you feel condescended to and insulted when you haven't bought the game?

How are you a customer when you haven't bought the game?

Was there such a question? I must have missed it.

I've bought 3 other games from Bioware. BG1, BG2 and DA:O. Their other games haven't appealed to me-- NWN because of its aesthetics, KOTOR because I'm not a fan of Star Wars, et cetera.

I didn't know DA2 was coming out. I'm one of those people that would have been suckered into buying it, if not for the fact that friends had bought it before me. I'm a student, and don't have unlimited resources, so I thought I'd borrow one of their copies until such time as I had more money for fancy toys.

One of my friends gave the game away to me a few days later. They hated it.

I thought, "This can't be right. Maybe we just have different tastes? Bioware can't have put out a shoddy product."

Lo and behold.

I may not have bought the game, but clearly they intended for me to buy it, seeing as I'm one of the people that bought DA:O. And for them to try to sucker me in with their "innovations" is atrocious behaviour. I'm so glad I didn't have to pay for it.

EA/Bioware's attitude during this backlash has been an attack on long time fans like me. Actually, on everyone-- does anyone really believe they "innovated" with DA2? Where is the "innovation"? That word doesn't work like they seem to think it does.

Addendum: You know what, I'm not attacking any particular person. Everyone has been given their talking points ("Innovation! Innovation!"). The thing is, some higher up can at any point step in and say, "No, we're not doing that. We shall not lie to their faces." They haven't bothered to do so.
This is marketing warfare, Morroian.

Modifié par Bejos_, 18 juin 2011 - 12:08 .

[shedevil3001]

cmessaz wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
We have acknowledged our lack of 100% awesomeness.

Just cutting in for a sec....

No..in my opinion it was about 98% awesomeness. You guys don't hear that often enough. Good job and thanks for another great game!

Now...carry on!

very much agreed with this, considering when da2 was first announced i was in the not gonna buy it queue, but im very glad i changed my mind as i'm enjoying playing it and cant wait for the next installment, i'd personally like to say fantastic job to the devs who worked on da2 and thank you for an awesome game. It needed to be said mean as theres not enought good comments made :{

[hoorayforicecream]

magicwins wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
Telling us that we can't/shouldn't be proud of what we have accomplished, whether you agree with it or not, makes it sound like your're throwing a tantrum. We have acknowledged our lack of 100% awesomeness. Can you be just as big and admit there are things about Dragon Age II that BioWare can and should be proud of?

Of course I'm ranting. I never claimed otherwise. Then again, I never said you shouldn't be proud of your work. I mentioned areas of DA2 that I was particularly impressed by, such as the cinematics. All I said was that if I was a dev, I would not be happy to ship a product that I saw as unfinished in many ways, especially when I knew my team was capable of better. I do not presume to understand your working conditions, or speak for you in any way, I just tried to put myself in your place and asked myself if I would be satisfied with the overall lack of awesomeness in my product.

There isn't a developer alive who doesn't think their work could use improvements. Every developer I've ever met (including ones I've worked with...  this number is in the mid hundreds), save for a handful (under 10), have absolutely loved making games. They chose their profession because they love it. The decision to release a game doesn't solely fall to the studio; the publisher is the one who decides that, just like the publisher is the one who controls the purse strings. That said, the difference is that most of them have priorities that extend beyond simply making games. Things like providing for their children, putting food on the table, or paying their mortgage often comes before providing you (yes, you) entertainment. 

What many people think the game developers say:
- "We can release this game now, or we can release this game later when it is better."

The reality:
- "We can release this game now, or we can release this game later, but they won't pay us for the extra time we take"
- "We can release this game now, or we can look for new jobs."

I've put out work that I wish wasn't in the shape it was. There are bugs, kludges, hacks and bandaids I've personally put into games (that sold in the low millions) that I wish I had time to fix. However, when you're one person and your boss tells you to get it done, you get it done. It's nice to sit in an ivory tower and say "Well, you should have done this and that and the other thing", but it's an entirely different thing when you have the choice of either getting it done, or collecting unemployment.

At least Bioware gets DLC and patches. I was told to save all my fixes for the next game.

[Brockololly]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Four or five different developers have already acknowledged that the game isn't 100% awesomesauce, have confirmed that feedback has been listened to and will be considered, and announced an intention to try and make future games better for everyone.

I agree with much of what you've said with the caveat that at least part of the issue thats irking people with the stuff Muzyka or Laidlaw said in the past is where it can be perceived as less acknowledging the game has issues and more that the issues seem to lie with the gamer and they weren't able to handle it:

Here:

Laidlaw: "It boils down to a game that challenges a fair amount of convention: it doesn't tell the usual fantasy story or present the usual fantasy  combat, and in doing so it does run the risk of someone going, "Wow,  this is just too different and I cannot handle it."

Or here:

Muzyka: "But also there were a lot of fans of the original Dragon Age: Origins  who weren't as happy with it. Maybe they were looking for more of the  same, and it was different and innovative in ways they weren't expecting.

Its just irritating to lump the people criticizing the game into some uniform category of people that simply wanted a carbon copy of Origins, which isn't the case at all. Surely some people wanted a sequel more akin to Origins, but its a bit insulting to hear how DA2 was just so groundbreaking and innovative and well, anyone that didn't like it is some trogolodyte that needs to go back to their archaic pen and paper. It seems like the game is getting more credit than its due with some of this "innovation" which for some is the fundamental issue with the game at a design level and for many others the issue is the lackluster implementation of said "innovation."

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 juin 2011 - 12:12 .

[Thor Rand Al]

cmessaz wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
We have acknowledged our lack of 100% awesomeness.

Just cutting in for a sec....

No..in my opinion it was about 98% awesomeness. You guys don't hear that often enough. Good job and thanks for another great game!

Now...carry on!

I also endorce this comment, and ad in my own great job and thank you.

There are actually some people that really enjoy DA2, and love playing it.  I'm on my 5th gameplay now n gonna play another lol.  I really enjoy this game, thank you Bioware, keep up the excellent work.

[Xewaka]

Brockololly wrote...
Its just irritating to lump the people criticizing the game into some uniform category of people that simply wanted a carbon copy of Origins, which isn't the case at all. Surely some people wanted a sequel more akin to Origins, but its a bit insulting to hear how DA2 was just so groundbreaking and innovative and well, anyone that didn't like it is some trogolodyte that needs to go back to their archaic pen and paper. It seems like the game is getting more credit than its due with some of this "innovation" which for some is the fundamental issue with the game at a design level and for many others the issue is the lackluster implementation of said "innovation."

We'd benefit more if it were the developers who went back to the Pen and Paper. For such an innovative game, most of its character building/advancing mechanics (fixed, non-overlapping classes; xp per enemy killed; combat skills only) are from the late seventies, and save for D&D, mostly forgotten in the actual RPG scene.

[Genly]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Having absolutely no knowledge of Dragon Age II's budget, sales projections, or specific sales numbers, I doubt you can make that claim, let alone force us to announce them to you to prove anything. Insisting that we do so to justify or rationalize your negative perception of the game is a little silly. Four or five different developers have already acknowledged that the game isn't 100% awesomesauce, have confirmed that feedback has been listened to and will be considered, and announced an intention to try and make future games better for everyone.

Telling us that we can't/shouldn't be proud of what we have accomplished, whether you agree with it or not, makes it sound like your're throwing a tantrum. We have acknowledged our lack of 100% awesomeness. Can you be just as big and admit there are things about Dragon Age II that BioWare can and should be proud of?

Agreed. However, from the interviews I read, I just wish you guys wouldn't lump together all the criticisms and all the people who criticizes the game as "oh yes, core fans who expected DAO2 and/or didn't like our design changes". I can't be the only one who is all for changes in DA series, but just don't think the game is as good as it could be, *given the constraints of the direction/changes the game now had*. I can't be the only one who didn't like the seeming rushedness implementations of the innovations/changes. Finally, I can't be the only who *doesn't think the game is actually bad, but niot great either, and that has nothing to do with expecting DAO2.

[Bejos_]

Laidlaw: "It boils down to a game that challenges a fair amount of convention: it doesn't tell the usual fantasy story or present the usual fantasy  combat, and in doing so it does run the risk of someone going, "Wow,  this is just too different and I cannot handle it."

"It challenges a fair amount of convention?" I really don't care how conventional it is. Make it good, and make it fun. He knows how to rile up people, eh?

Muzyka: "But also there were a lot of fans of the original Dragon Age: Origins  who weren't as happy with it. Maybe they were looking for more of the  same, and it was different and innovative in ways they weren't expecting.

Different and innovative in ways I wasn't expecting ... That sounds about right. He seems to imply that something being "different" from the original is automatically a plus.
Looking for more of the same? I couldn't have cared if it was a FFXIII clone or, literally, CoD with different textures, as long as it was good, and fun.

"You spin me right 'round, baby, right 'round ..."

[Genly]

[double post]

Modifié par Genly, 18 juin 2011 - 12:22 .

[ipgd]

Brockololly wrote...

It seems like the game is getting more credit than its due with some of this "innovation" which for some is the fundamental issue with the game at a design level and for many others the issue is the lackluster implementation of said "innovation."

Having been rather present on these forums over the last four months, it is my perception that the game could be more accurately said to have trouble getting credit for anything (other than cancer, smallpox, and the systematic murder of children).

[Sandmanifest]

I read "innovative" I play "mistake".

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Its just irritating to lump the people criticizing the game into some uniform category of people that simply wanted a carbon copy of Origins, which isn't the case at all. Surely some people wanted a sequel more akin to Origins, but its a bit insulting to hear how DA2 was just so groundbreaking and innovative and well, anyone that didn't like it is some trogolodyte that needs to go back to their archaic pen and paper. It seems like the game is getting more credit than its due with some of this "innovation" which for some is the fundamental issue with the game at a design level and for many others the issue is the lackluster implementation of said "innovation."

Neither Mike nor Ray said that.

They both said that DA2 was different from DA:O (which it is) and that some people weren't happy with these changes (which is true). They never insulted anyone or claimed that that those who didn't like DA2 were "troglodytes", just that DA2 was obviously not what some people wanted.

And the game isn't getting more credit then it's due. It has trouble getting any kind of credit, even when it is deserved, because of a bunch of people who think DA2 is the source of all evil in the world and deserves to be thrashed at every opportunity.

And no, I don't think you're one of those, even though some of your criticism is more a matter of personal preference than objective fact.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 18 juin 2011 - 12:32 .

[magicwins]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

There isn't a developer alive who doesn't think their work could use improvements. Every developer I've ever met (including ones I've worked with...  this number is in the mid hundreds), save for a handful (under 10), have absolutely loved making games. They chose their profession because they love it. The decision to release a game doesn't solely fall to the studio; the publisher is the one who decides that, just like the publisher is the one who controls the purse strings. That said, the difference is that most of them have priorities that extend beyond simply making games. Things like providing for their children, putting food on the table, or paying their mortgage often comes before providing you (yes, you) entertainment. 

What many people think the game developers say:
- "We can release this game now, or we can release this game later when it is better."

The reality:
- "We can release this game now, or we can release this game later, but they won't pay us for the extra time we take"
- "We can release this game now, or we can look for new jobs."

I've put out work that I wish wasn't in the shape it was. There are bugs, kludges, hacks and bandaids I've personally put into games (that sold in the low millions) that I wish I had time to fix. However, when you're one person and your boss tells you to get it done, you get it done. It's nice to sit in an ivory tower and say "Well, you should have done this and that and the other thing", but it's an entirely different thing when you have the choice of either getting it done, or collecting unemployment.

At least Bioware gets DLC and patches. I was told to save all my fixes for the next game.

Is it wrong for me to expect people to not be 'happy' with this situation? I'm not expecting sadness or disappointment, or anything negative per se, but conjecturally (since, as Mr Woo pointed out, I lack access to hard sales figures) the game seems to have done badly commercially, and linked to bad word-of-mouth press. The only message I get from everyone involved is that it's business as usual, and once they make a few tweaks here and there, everything will be up and running smoothly again. And even there they're not being clear about anything. Which frustrates me because I want to like this franchise but am utterly unable to.

Everyone's submitted unfinished creative work, for whatever reason. Speeches, projects, dance performances, I have mucked up all of them. But I've always been clear about what my goals were and if I fell short of them, how I fell short of them and I've always been honest with myself. I'm not blaming Bioware for being forced into a short dev cycle and doing what they could within it. I'm annoyed at how they're representing what I see as a bad reaction, as an inability to appreciate their innovativeness and new-age ideas.

[hoorayforicecream]

magicwins wrote...

Is it wrong for me to expect people to not be 'happy' with this situation? I'm not expecting sadness or disappointment, or anything negative per se, but conjecturally (since, as Mr Woo pointed out, I lack access to hard sales figures) the game seems to have done badly commercially, and linked to bad word-of-mouth press. The only message I get from everyone involved is that it's business as usual, and once they make a few tweaks here and there, everything will be up and running smoothly again. And even there they're not being clear about anything. Which frustrates me because I want to like this franchise but am utterly unable to.

Then you've been ignoring or only selectively listening to what the Bioware folks have been saying. Like Mr. Woo said, there have been at least 4 or 5 mea culpas from the developers, both through posts here on the forum, and to the gaming press. One of which was in the article this very thread is about. What I think you're saying is "those aren't enough", but really... what are they going to do about it? Anything they say will get picked apart by the haters (like they have been in this very thread), or treated as "not good enough" (like they have been in this very thread). The only response is to either leave the haters be and take what they say with a grain of salt (which is what they are doing), or try to appease them (which is a losing proposition).

Bioware could probably hand out $20 bills in every game they shipped, and people would still complain about how they were folded. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

In Exile wrote...

I really hate the codex, so let me state my opposition: 

They are the epitome of tell and not show.

Take the cardinal rules of magic - this is something that absolutely enriches the world by being included in the game. It's valuable lore. But it's not lore I want to red about in the added in-game glossary. I wanted it to be told to me by a character, or included in a quest, or a part of the background of an NPC.

But it's lore that's not of particular note for the *game*. The Codex covers a heap of stuff, from mechanics monsters  to random books about countries you don't even  have to care about. Nothing in 'The Cardinal Rules of Magic' is stuff you have to know, or even get to talk about with people.

What about the Somniari? You don't get a book about them in Feynriel's quest, Marethari tells you.

It's impractical and illogical to dispense with written books, notes and letters. I'd find it jarring to have my PC walk into a library and not be able to read any of the books.

They're also convenient for lore nerds who want to fire up the game and make a reference check.

Here's a great example: the Dunn Banner in TW2. That quests is one where you do need to gather lore to answer some questions to get a quest item (unless you want to fight). But the lore isn't told to you in a book - you get it from conversations. It's told to you as a story, actively.

Which is great, for a quest. DA2 quests are not as sophisticated and twisty-turny as TW2 quests, but you don't have to read any codices to solve them. Not one. Even the quest with the Fell Grimoires, which *are* books, you don't read as codex entries.

I like that. I think the codexes need to die beause they're a low-cost excuse to avoid the technical problem of how to enrich your world actively.

Even The Witcher 2 had reading. You could buy books or find books. There was stuff on geography, history, NPCs and monsters. How is that any different to the codex in DA2?

The only DA2 codex-based information I really wanted to see in the game was evidence of the Enigma of Kirkwall, because that could have been hugely important for the mage/templar conflict. Sadly it was only reading material that you couldn't even show or talk to anyone about. It's because the material was so *good* that I wanted it to go beyond a few codices.

[magicwins]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Then you've been ignoring or only selectively listening to what the Bioware folks have been saying. Like Mr. Woo said, there have been at least 4 or 5 mea culpas from the developers, both through posts here on the forum, and to the gaming press. One of which was in the article this very thread is about. What I think you're saying is "those aren't enough", but really... what are they going to do about it? Anything they say will get picked apart by the haters (like they have been in this very thread), or treated as "not good enough" (like they have been in this very thread). The only response is to either leave the haters be and take what they say with a grain of salt (which is what they are doing), or try to appease them (which is a losing proposition).

Bioware could probably hand out $20 bills in every game they shipped, and people would still complain about how they were folded. 

Well, I've only seen Mike's old interview about 'A Defense of Dragon Age 2' and these two new ones from Gibeau and Muzyka, so yes, I may be missing something. Has anyone done any other public interviews? I troll most gaming sites frequently, so I'd be surprised if they had.

[Maria Caliban]

magicwins wrote...

Yeah. I dislike dancing about the PR bush and making disingenuous assertions. Aka I've seen other people being clear and EA has repeatedly been as unclear as it can be about everything. Especially when I'm trying to understand whether I should care about the franchise anymore, this pointless PR babble only serves to annoy me.

If BioWare stopped 'beating around the PR bush' their message wouldn't be that DA 2 was a horrible game that they're ashamed of. It would be that was a game they're proud of despite a few flaws and that the minority of fans who act as though BioWare killed their dogs need to get over themselves.

You know, a less polite version of what they already are saying.