1248 réponses à ce sujet

[Stanley Woo]

Brockololly wrote...

I agree with much of what you've said with the caveat that at least part of the issue thats irking people with the stuff Muzyka or Laidlaw said in the past is where it can be perceived as less acknowledging the game has issues and more that the issues seem to lie with the gamer and they weren't able to handle it:

I certainly understand that folks are sore over some of what we did with Dragon Age II, but I think a lot of the rage is based on confirmation bias. You're already dead set against liking DA2, and feel you've been betrayed by BioWare, of course you're going to take what we say in the most negative way possible. That's why we're having his "argument" in the first place.

You'll note that at no time have I or any other developer directly denied that there are things about DA2 that needed work, or didn't work out as well as we'd hoped. The way some folks tell it, we've just tied someone's dog to our boots and kicked their kitten into a burning orphanage. And by Jove, we need to admit that we're low-down, filthy puppy-haters and kitten-kickers!

On a more serious note, consumers also have to bear some of their own responsibility. Nothing that we say, nothing that marketing says, nothing that EA says, absolves the gamer from making responsible, informed puchasing decisions. Part of that responsibility includes admitting that hey, maybe I've made a mistake this time, oh well, next time I'll take that into consideration. Because holy hannah, there's a huge difference between "come on, BioWare, you guys can do better than this," which is a point of disagreement that we can talk about, and "Dragon Age II is bad and you should feel bad! You shold be fired!", which is a more emotional response that we can't really talk through.

Remember how the forum was when DA2 was first released? Flame posts everywhere and we largely said nothing. Why? Because people weren't ready to listen and be reasonable yet. All they could focus on were the differences between DAO and DA2 and how much they didn't like that. As I predicted, after a few weeks, we started to get more constructive, reasoned responses. People didn't like the game any more by then, but at least they could better articulate just what it was they objected to. It also helped that many people had finished the game and could put all the changes into context, which we appreciated enough to maintain and periodically review a Constructive Criticism thread, which continues to this day.

Surely some people wanted a sequel more akin to Origins, but its a bit insulting to hear how DA2 was just so groundbreaking and innovative and well, anyone that didn't like it is some trogolodyte that needs to go back to their archaic pen and paper.

Would you consider it just as annoying and/or insulting to hear that people want you to be fired, that you're incompetent, and that your company should go out of business just because they didn't like something you did? Because that's what sensationalist hyperbole gets you. People wanted BioWare to acknowledge the game wasn't perfect. We've done that, publicly, both here and in interviews. People wanted BioWare to learn from its mistakes. we've stated our intention to try to do so, but cannot say anything for certain until we start talking about the next project. We would never resort to name-calling or insults to get our point across. There's not only no reason to do so, but it's kind of a douchey thing to do, and I'm pretty sure y'all don't think we're douches. If y'all did think we were douches, I doubt you'd be sticking around, trying to get us to do better next time.

It seems like the game is getting more credit than its due with some of this "innovation" which for some is the fundamental issue with the game at a design level and for many others the issue is the lackluster implementation of said "innovation."

Call that a disagreement. I think the game is getting credit, full stop. some people believe that acknowledging anything good about the game means the next game will be exactly the same. History and logic will indicate that we do change the way we make games based on gamer feedback, and that we are capable of making good games. Why, then, would we intentionally antagonize people, and on our very own forums, no less? Disagreement does not mean that everything's going to be the same next time. On the other hand, disagreement also does not mean that everything will be as you expect it next time. No matter the amount, nature, or frequency of the feedback we receive, ultimately we will be the ones developing the game, we take the risks, and it is our reputation on the line.

That's just as immutable as the fact that ultimately, the decision to purchase the game, when, for how much, and based on what criteria, are entirely yours.

Sorry I'm so long-winded. I can get pretty passionate about our interactions with our community, and about consumer issues.

[Bejos_]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Bioware could probably hand out $20 bills in every game they shipped, and people would still complain about how they were folded. 

I think $30 (+ any dollars given for DLC) would be a good start, probably. That would go a long way toward making people who spent money on the game feel more charitable towards them.

Modifié par Bejos_, 18 juin 2011 - 12:52 .

[Zjarcal]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Bioware could probably hand out $20 bills in every game they shipped, and people would still complain about how they were folded. 

"What's this, a $20 bill folded in half?!?! YOU HAVE DESTROYED ITS INTEGRITY!!! >:("

[KnightofPhoenix]

Master Shiori wrote...
They both said that DA2 was different from DA:O (which it is) and that some people weren't happy with these changes (which is true).

Speaking for myself. They don't come out and say "and there are some who, while not minding changes in principle, think we did a poor job implementing them". Which I think is a good part of those who didn't like DA2. Ideally, I'd also want writers to come out and say they didn't do as good job as they could have, at least when it  comes to Act 3 (one kind of came close to admitting it). But of course, they can't really say that at the moment, and I understand.

I also understand why many keep getting pissed off at comments like that. I personally don't get pissed off, but neither do I jump for joy every time I hear them say they are considering feedback. For now, just words to me and sadly, that is no longer enough when it comes from Bioware.

[Bejos_]

It's ;,,,( that I like so many of the employees.
Bosses ... well.

Hahah @ Zjarcal.

Modifié par Bejos_, 18 juin 2011 - 12:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Stanley Woo wrote...
On a more serious note, consumers also have to bear some of their own responsibility. Nothing that we say, nothing that marketing says, nothing that EA says, absolves the gamer from making responsible, informed puchasing decisions. Part of that responsibility includes admitting that hey, maybe I've made a mistake this time, oh well, next time I'll take that into consideration.

Oh I personally learned my lesson. And I'll be first to admit that I was an idiot when I pre-ordered the game based on blind faith alone and marketing (while I thought it was poor, I actually believed the core tenants of it, some of which are posted in its website). 

So yea absolutely. I own up to my mistake and will make sure never to repeat it again.

[TRfore]

ItsTheTruth wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

It's not a console limitation per se, it's a Bioware limitation with consoles.

You mean Bioware innovations with consoles.

Think about it, they want all future games to run of an XBOX which  came out in 2005.  Even PS3 games cant run on XBOX cause XBOX is so old tech.  Why do you think DA2 had DX11 problems at start? 

[TripLight]

TRfore wrote...

ItsTheTruth wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

It's not a console limitation per se, it's a Bioware limitation with consoles.

You mean Bioware innovations with consoles.

Think about it, they want all future games to run of an XBOX which  came out in 2005.  Even PS3 games cant run on XBOX cause XBOX is so old tech.  Why do you think DA2 had DX11 problems at start? 

LOLwut?

It's an entirely different console...

[hoorayforicecream]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Speaking for myself. They don't come out and say "and there are some who, while not minding changes in principle, think we did a poor job implementing them". Which I think is a good part of those who didn't like DA2. Ideally, I'd also want writers to come out and say they didn't do as good job as they could have, at least when it  comes to Act 3 (one kind of came close to admitting it). But of course, they can't really say that at the moment, and I understand.

 You want them to admit there are people who didn't like the game? Is there a game that doesn't have people who disliked it?

[cmessaz]

Zjarcal wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Bioware could probably hand out $20 bills in every game they shipped, and people would still complain about how they were folded. 

"What's this, a $20 bill folded in half?!?! YOU HAVE DESTROYED ITS INTEGRITY!!! >:("

I demand they send me another, with a written apology. And I'm going to ****** and moan about said folded 20 dollar bill for 4 months after everywhere. Because they insulted me by this outrage. I also demand the next game come with 2 20 dollar bills, freshly printed. 

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
On a more serious note, consumers also have to bear some of their own responsibility. Nothing that we say, nothing that marketing says, nothing that EA says, absolves the gamer from making responsible, informed puchasing decisions. Part of that responsibility includes admitting that hey, maybe I've made a mistake this time, oh well, next time I'll take that into consideration.

Oh I personally learned my lesson. And I'll be first to admit that I was an idiot when I pre-ordered the game based on blind faith alone and marketing (while I thought it was poor, I actually believed the core tenants of it, some of which are posted in its website). 

So yea absolutely. I own up to my mistake and will make sure never to repeat it again.

This is part of the reason why I sometimes feel it's unfair of many people to critcize so much (emphasize on "much", not saying they can't criticize). You can't simply trust blind faith in a company. Well you can, but you should be ready to live with the consequences.

Like say, I will preorder ME3. If I end up hating it (doubt I will), I will have no one to blame but myself.

If one wants to make sure they will like a game, wait for reviews, word of mouth information, or a chance to try it before buying it. Otherwise, you're taking a risk and you know it.

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...
Neither Mike nor Ray said that.

They both said that DA2 was different from DA:O (which it is) and that some people weren't happy with these changes (which is true). They never insulted anyone or claimed that that those who didn't like DA2 were "troglodytes", just that DA2 was obviously not what some people wanted.

Hyperbole, come on its the internet:)

But the insinuation is there in their attempts at hamfistedly rationalizing as to "why" people didn't like DA2. You can't lump the critics together as all simply wanting more DAO; that the problem was with their expectations, not so much the game, which is what trying to pass DA2 off as "innovative" seems to be trying.

Master Shiori wrote...
And the game isn't getting more credit then it's due. It has trouble getting any kind of credit, even when it is deserved, because of a bunch of people who think DA2 is the source of all evil in the world and deserves to be thrashed at every opportunity.

And no, I don't think you're one of those, even though some of your criticism is more a matter of personal preference than objective fact.

All criticism is subjective:wizard:

It just seems that EA/BioWare is trying to make DA2 out to be something its not yet again- they're seemingly trying to exaggerate the innovation that was in DA2. They're trying in these post release interviews to make DA2 out as some kind of experimental, risky game that boldly went where no game has gone before. And that, well of course, when a game is as INNOVATIVE as DA2, of course some people who are clinging to the past in Origins or BG2 won't be on board.

I'd say there is very little actual innovation in DA2- maybe from the POV of the DA franchise there is, but its the second game in, so anything new could be deemed "innovative." Its more to the point of DA2 simply taking features from ME and other games that have been done before and (IMO) not even executing them that well.

DA2 was just a rather generic action-RPG that adhered to any of the countless other current video game features popular at the moment. It wasn't innovative in terms of the overall market- it was resoundingly safe and uninspired. And thats the problem IMO- it might have checked off all the boxes in what some focus group wants in a Call of Duty blockbuster game, but the end result was more or less a mess and not what I expect out of BioWare.

[Bejos_]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If BioWare stopped 'beating around the PR bush' their message wouldn't be that DA 2 was a horrible game that they're ashamed of. It would be that was a game they're proud of despite a few flaws and that the minority of fans who act as though BioWare killed their dogs need to get over themselves.

You know, a less polite version of what they already are saying.

I'm sure it's possible to be proud of a game you had to rush out in 18 months.
I think this game just suffered from a lot of mistakes because of pressure, which is why it plays (for me, obviously; you have your own opinion) like a mess. The story rambled, the side quests annoyed, the layout enraged, the characters irritated ...

I can see what they were trying to do, I just can't find it in me to like the game because of all of the mistakes.
If they'd had a year more, and if they'd changed a few things, I would have loved it.

I don't think it's possible for them to say that they think this is one of their best games, though. (I didn't say they said that. I'm just putting your quote above in perspective.)

Modifié par Bejos_, 18 juin 2011 - 12:59 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Stanley Woo wrote...
People wanted BioWare to acknowledge the game wasn't perfect. We've done that, publicly, both here and in interviews.

I think a big part of it is that people want BioWare to come out and say that EA is a horrible boss, and that all their fears about the merger are true. I don't think it's a matter of people not liking BioWare. Sometimes I wonder if the people that dislike DA2 would like it if EA was not in the picture. Same game as it is now.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

TRfore wrote...

ItsTheTruth wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

It's not a console limitation per se, it's a Bioware limitation with consoles.

You mean Bioware innovations with consoles.

Think about it, they want all future games to run of an XBOX which  came out in 2005.  Even PS3 games cant run on XBOX cause XBOX is so old tech.  Why do you think DA2 had DX11 problems at start? 

You're confusing two things.

Do the consoles hold back technological advances in games? Yes.

Undoubtedly yes.

But are Bioware's problems with Dragon Age 2 technically (maps, detail, level design, etc) a problem caused by consoles, or their engine and the ability to use it?

When you look at all the games on consoles with large, highly detailed, spawling maps, you realise that the problem is on Bioware's end (engine, lack of detail, inefficient, lack of time, etc) rather than a hardwired console limitation.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 18 juin 2011 - 01:02 .

[Thor Rand Al]

cmessaz wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Bioware could probably hand out $20 bills in every game they shipped, and people would still complain about how they were folded. 

"What's this, a $20 bill folded in half?!?! YOU HAVE DESTROYED ITS INTEGRITY!!! >:("

I demand they send me another, with a written apology. And I'm going to ****** and moan about said folded 20 dollar bill for 4 months after everywhere. Because they insulted me by this outrage. I also demand the next game come with 2 20 dollar bills, freshly printed. 

Rofl, u guys rock  

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
 You want them to admit there are people who didn't like the game? Is there a game that doesn't have people who disliked it?

No I want them to admit that there are those who dislike a game based on something other than not liking their "innovations". Might sound like a banal distinction, but it's actually an important one.

Zjarcal wrote...
If one wants to make sure they will
like a game, wait for reviews, word of mouth information, or a chance to
try it before buying it. Otherwise, you're taking a risk and you know
it.

Yea, now I learned. I was naive to trust Bioware that much and I know, I made a mistake. I hopefully won't repeat it again. 

As to criticizing much. Since I still care aboiut the franchise (not as much as before, because an alternative showed up), I feel criticizing can still be useful for its future. Not sure if I belong to the category of those who criticize "much" or not. But I certainly do not come out and say Bioware made me buy it. I will say their marketing was excessively dishonest, but that's about it. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 juin 2011 - 01:03 .

[Stanley Woo]

magicwins wrote...
Is it wrong for me to expect people to not be 'happy' with this situation?

No one has insisted that you be "happy" with anything. No one has taken away your right to feel however you feel. All that's being asked (by me, anyway) is that you present your "unhappiness" in a reasoned manner.

I'm not expecting sadness or disappointment, or anything negative per se, but conjecturally (since, as Mr Woo pointed out, I lack access to hard sales figures) the game seems to have done badly commercially, and linked to bad word-of-mouth press.

Yes, but your perception of sales doesn't affect what we know or what we do or what we're planning to do in the future. The way some people tell it, all we're doing is sitting on our laurels, claiming we're perfect, and throwing our drinks in the face of the players! Believe me, we are not. Quite the opposite, we take all the feedback into account, not just from you guys, but from players all over the world, via emails, Tweets, Facebook comments, blog comments, news articles, those comments, in person at conventions, and even internally from other developers.

The only message I get from everyone involved is that it's business as usual, and once they make a few tweaks here and there, everything will be up and running smoothly again. And even there they're not being clear about anything. Which frustrates me because I want to like this franchise but am utterly unable to.

Again, as you are unfamiliar with what we do and how, I will say that your version of how we do things is incorrect. Remember, please, that Dragon Age II was developed, in part, based on player feedback from Dragon Age Origins. You can see just how far we can go in listening to and acting on some of the feedback we receive. I don't see why people can accuse us of resting on our laurels, while at the same time chastising us for doing some things too differently.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Speaking for myself. They don't come out and say "and there are some who, while not minding changes in principle, think we did a poor job implementing them". Which I think is a good part of those who didn't like DA2. Ideally, I'd also want writers to come out and say they didn't do as good job as they could have, at least when it  comes to Act 3 (one kind of came close to admitting it). But of course, they can't really say that at the moment, and I understand.

I think this bears repeating, as I feel the same way and I'm too lazy to paraphrase it while making it read like an original post.

Or umm... This.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 18 juin 2011 - 01:06 .

[Bejos_]

Zjarcal wrote...

This is part of the reason why I sometimes feel it's unfair of many people to critcize so much (emphasize on "much", not saying they can't criticize). You can't simply trust blind faith in a company. Well you can, but you should be ready to live with the consequences.

Like say, I will preorder ME3. If I end up hating it (doubt I will), I will have no one to blame but myself.

If one wants to make sure they will like a game, wait for reviews, word of mouth information, or a chance to try it before buying it. Otherwise, you're taking a risk and you know it.

I'm not sure I agree with you here. If I buy say ... a Merc, and then another Mercedes 4 years later ... sure, I'll expect these models to be different in some way, but I'll expect them to have generally the same quality and/or features.
I don't know that DA:O and DA2 can be compared in the same way.
Such a comparison should be possible.

[Stanley Woo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Speaking for myself. They don't come out and say "and there are some who, while not minding changes in principle, think we did a poor job implementing them". Which I think is a good part of those who didn't like DA2. Ideally, I'd also want writers to come out and say they didn't do as good job as they could have, at least when it  comes to Act 3 (one kind of came close to admitting it). But of course, they can't really say that at the moment, and I understand.

I also understand why many keep getting pissed off at comments like that. I personally don't get pissed off, but neither do I jump for joy every time I hear them say they are considering feedback. For now, just words to me and sadly, that is no longer enough when it comes from Bioware.

Sorry, KnightofPhoenix, but perhaps I'm not interpreting you correctly.

On the one hand, you "want writers to come out and say they didn't do as good job as they
could have, at least when it  comes to Act 3 (one kind of came close to
admitting it)." But ont he other, you say that it would be "just words to me and sadly, that is no longer enough when it comes from Bioware." So you want our develoeprs to bow and scrape to you, just so you can scoff at them and not accept their apology? Sounds rather rude to me, humiliating the developers you wish to make a game you'll like better next time.

[JamieCOTC]

To the OP. I couldn't agree more. Like you said, it's PR BS, but to lump those who were disappointed in the game into some "they just didn't get it" pile is a bit insulting. To be honest, I wish the game actually was innovative and maybe it would have been a much better game. I like what they tried to do with the story. I give them credit for that. But did "cut and paste" area maps suddenly become the *in* thing while I wasn't looking? Did "Here, I think you lost this" side quests suddenly become some form of gaming performance art? Are raven feathers really worth that much? I dunno, because I don't know what the hell they look like. Did all the bad guys go to the same choreography studio so they know to take the exact same positions nearly every damned time they start a fight? And did they rent out every second story building in Kirkwall? I dunno.

The shame of it is, that DA2 isn't a bad game. It's a good game actually, but it's not a great game and certainly not worthy of the name BioWare. And if it hadn't been rushed, maybe, just maybe it would have been worthy.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sorry, KnightofPhoenix, but perhaps I'm not interpreting you correctly.

On the one hand, you "want writers to come out and say they didn't do as good job as they could have, at least when it  comes to Act 3 (one kind of came close to admitting it)." But ont he other, you say that it would be "just words to me and sadly, that is no longer enough when it comes from Bioware." So you want our develoeprs to bow and scrape to you, just so you can scoff at them and not accept their apology? Sounds rather rude to me, humiliating the developers you wish to make a game you'll like better next time.

I believe you are misinterpreting incorrectly, Mr. Woo.

What KoP is saying is that he holds no stock in Bioware's comments that they are "considering feedback" as he feels that Bioware have skirted on the very issues as to why he did not enjoy the game. If they had acknowledged and elaborated on flaws in the areas which he feels let down by Dragon Age 2 (poor execution of ideas, Act 3), then had said that they will improve on these aspects in future, he'd be much more likely to react positively to PR interviews, rather than apathetically.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Sorry, KnightofPhoenix, but perhaps I'm not interpreting you correctly.

On the one hand, you "want writers to come out and say they didn't do as good job as they
could have, at least when it  comes to Act 3 (one kind of came close to
admitting it)." But ont he other, you say that it would be "just words to me and sadly, that is no longer enough when it comes from Bioware." So you want our develoeprs to bow and scrape to you, just so you can scoff at them and not accept their apology? Sounds rather rude to me, humiliating the developers you wish to make a game you'll like better next time.

This is not how I meant it, no.

First of all, I do not think saying such a thing is humiliating. I personally think that clinging to mistakes / flaws...etc is more humiliating and I know there is no dev that would look at a game of his making and say "it's perfect". That would be humiliating imo.

Second. I did not claim that if they did say that, that I will jump for joy and dance. No, I'll still wait for something concrete. That said, saying it, imo, is a step in the right direction. Because it gives me the hope that "hey, maybe they will really try to improve in that specific area". But if the problem that I believe many see is not recognized (or shown to be recognized), then we don't have that kind of hope. Also, it's much more specific than "we are listening to feedback". What kind of feedback? "All" does not cut it sorry. That said, I know they can't really do that at the moment in press releases.

So no. I do not want developpers to bow and scrape to me, nor do I intend to scoff at them. What I do want is something more specific in their words first, and then something more concrete after.

I apologize if my comment was badly written to give that impression.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 juin 2011 - 01:14 .

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As to criticizing much. Since I still care aboiut the franchise (not as much as before, because an alternative showed up), I feel criticizing can still be useful for its future. Not sure if I belong to the category of those who criticize "much" or not. But I certainly do not come out and say Bioware made me buy it. I will say their marketing was excessively dishonest, but that's about it. 

By "much" I meant those that demand apologies or say that Bioware stole from them, etc, etc, etc., or those who feel insulted by Ray's interview (and yes, I do believe being insulted by said interview is too much), or those who make weird ass analogies about abused housewives...

I'm not gonna say I agree with all your criticisms about DA2 (your Hawke hate is a bit... extreme), but I wouldn't lump you in that category, especially since you do own up to the fact that you made a mistake in pre-ordering the game (something many don't).

Modifié par Zjarcal, 18 juin 2011 - 01:18 .