1248 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoWARD23]

errant_knight wrote...

Depressing. Completely and utterly depressing.

[Stanley Woo]

Regardless of any disagreements, I am enjoying our discussion here. I hope you guys are as well.

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Bioware could probably hand out $20 bills in every game they shipped, and people would still complain about how they were folded. 

People did purchase a game that didn't live up to the expectations that were advertised and discussed by the creators. Even Mike Laidlaw admitted there are issues with the significance of choice and the narrative.

[2papercuts]

Master Shiori wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Its just irritating to lump the people criticizing the game into some uniform category of people that simply wanted a carbon copy of Origins, which isn't the case at all. Surely some people wanted a sequel more akin to Origins, but its a bit insulting to hear how DA2 was just so groundbreaking and innovative and well, anyone that didn't like it is some trogolodyte that needs to go back to their archaic pen and paper. It seems like the game is getting more credit than its due with some of this "innovation" which for some is the fundamental issue with the game at a design level and for many others the issue is the lackluster implementation of said "innovation."

Neither Mike nor Ray said that.

They both said that DA2 was different from DA:O (which it is) and that some people weren't happy with these changes (which is true). They never insulted anyone or claimed that that those who didn't like DA2 were "troglodytes", just that DA2 was obviously not what some people wanted.

They never acknowledge that some new fans might not have been content with DA2 though, and for the most part the say that the main people that weren't happy with the game were core fans that found the Changes in DA2 were too radical and that they couldn't handle it.

"It actually drew a lot of new players in who really love it," Muzyka continued. "Many people who played Dragon Age: Origins loved it as well.

"But also there were a lot of fans of the original Dragon Age: Origins who weren't as happy with it. Maybe they were looking for more of the same, and it was different and innovative in ways they weren't expecting.
 
In these quotes Muzyka implies that the main critics were fans that wanted more of the same of DAO. Wether this is fair doesn't matter, because he doesn't really acknowledge any other people that were not happy with DA2 in the interview. This gives the impression that most of the unhappy people voicing their opinions are people who wanted just  wanted more of DAO and couldn't handle the changes. Now the word innovation has a positve conotation, and so by using that word innovative he implies that the changes were for the better. Therefore, from this interview I can infer that the main critics of DA2 were people that can't acknowledge the improvements that Bioware has made to DA. So from this interview I can also infer that Bioware has made "groundbreaking" improvements and that the critics are just people who can't accept the changes; therefore DA2's critics are stuck in the past.

Modifié par 2papercuts, 18 juin 2011 - 01:19 .

[Aaleel]

I'll say this. If you're going to make wholesale changes (Innovations, or whatever you want to call it) to your best selling product ever that has a large following of fans, you better take the time to do them right, or you're going to be taken to task.

There were some changes that I didn't mind, that I thought were implemented poorly, and others that I outright didn't like at all. If the aforementioned had been implemented well, I may not have minded the others as much, but when they weren't the entire game fell apart and was not enjoyable to me.

[2papercuts]

double post

Modifié par 2papercuts, 18 juin 2011 - 01:19 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
By "much" I meant those that demand apologies or say that Bioware stole from them, etc, etc, etc., or those who feel insulted by Ray's interview (and yes, I do believe being insulted by said interview is too much), or those who make weird ass analogies about abused housewives...

Yea, I am not a huge fan of that category either.

And admit it, my Hawke hate is colorful and indispensable to the forums

[KnightofPhoenix]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Regardless of any disagreements, I am enjoying our discussion here. I hope you guys are as well.

I personally am as well Mr. Woo
And I want it known that any criticism that I level against DA2 is not meant to offend anyone, dev or fan. Saying that cause I apparently already offended someone, because I went too far without intending to.

[magicwins]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Yes, but your perception of sales doesn't affect what we know or what we do or what we're planning to do in the future. The way some people tell it, all we're doing is sitting on our laurels, claiming we're perfect, and throwing our drinks in the face of the players! Believe me, we are not. Quite the opposite, we take all the feedback into account, not just from you guys, but from players all over the world, via emails, Tweets, Facebook comments, blog comments, news articles, those comments, in person at conventions, and even internally from other developers.

Well, Mr. Woo, that's what you guys said before DA2 and I wasn't too happy with how my feedback reflected in your product, so I'm just going to wait and see what you do next time, instead of trying to rein you left and right. Which, to clarify, is not what I'm doing now. Now I'm just trying to understand which direction you're driving your horse carriage in.

Stanley Woo wrote...
Again, as you are unfamiliar with what we do and how, I will say that your version of how we do things is incorrect. Remember, please, that Dragon Age II was developed, in part, based on player feedback from Dragon Age Origins. You can see just how far we can go in listening to and acting on some of the feedback we receive. I don't see why people can accuse us of resting on our laurels, while at the same time chastising us for doing some things too differently.

Again, yes, I am fully willing to admit that you possess knowledge of the inner workings of your company that I do not, but in the absence of clarity on what truly happens, I must form my own theories. Also, from what I read in a lot places, most people who disliked Dragon Age 2 were not knocking it for trying things they saw as driven by player feedback from Origins. They criticized it for implementing things that made them suppose that it was sacrificing its integrity to appeal to a wider audience in a shorter time. Again, in the absence of clear sales figures, and an understanding of what exactly comprises the Dragon Age 2 playerbase today, I am left to hypothesize, and I've reached a similar conclusion.

[Stanley Woo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Regardless of any disagreements, I am enjoying our discussion here. I hope you guys are as well.

I personally am as well Mr. Woo
And I want it known that any criticism that I level against DA2 is not meant to offend anyone, dev or fan. Saying that cause I apparently already offended someone, because I went too far without intending to.

So noted. thank you for your candour.

[magicwins]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Regardless of any disagreements, I am enjoying our discussion here. I hope you guys are as well.

I personally am as well Mr. Woo

Well, I'm sleepy and may tend to ramble a bit. You've all been warned.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And admit it, my Hawke hate is colorful and indispensable to the forums [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

It adds to your character, I'll say that... 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 18 juin 2011 - 01:28 .

[Stanley Woo]

magicwins wrote...
Well, Mr. Woo, that's what you guys said before DA2 and I wasn't too happy with how my feedback reflected in your product, so I'm just going to wait and see what you do next time, instead of trying to rein you left and right. Which, to clarify, is not what I'm doing now. Now I'm just trying to understand which direction you're driving your horse carriage in.

Ah, but just because we listen to feedback doesn't mean we throw our own ideas out the door. We take all the feedback into consideration, sure, but it all still has to fit together into a coherent product. And you'd think I'd get tired of asking the following question, but I don't: who do we listen to? For example, if your feedback is "more X" but someone else's is "less X" or even "no X," well, we have a conundrum, don't we? it's not as easy to deal with a wide spectrum of feedback as some people think it is.

from what I read in a lot places, most people who disliked Dragon Age 2 were not knocking it for trying things they saw as driven by player feedback from Origins. They criticized it for implementing things that made them suppose that it was sacrificing its integrity to appeal to a wider audience in a shorter time.

I would disagree with the "most people" part, but that is a valid criticism. Neither Ray nor Mike's comments remove that as one reason (Ray does say "maybe") people disliked DA2.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I just wish they'd drop the "innovative" line too, or at least acknowledge that it's innovative for Dragon Age and not innovative as an umbrella term. I know that it's inevitable, but it just grates at me. Especially when it's an often repeated line.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 18 juin 2011 - 01:29 .

[Thor Rand Al]

JamieCOTC wrote...

To the OP. I couldn't agree more. Like you said, it's PR BS, but to lump those who were disappointed in the game into some "they just didn't get it" pile is a bit insulting. To be honest, I wish the game actually was innovative and maybe it would have been a much better game. I like what they tried to do with the story. I give them credit for that. But did "cut and paste" area maps suddenly become the *in* thing while I wasn't looking? Did "Here, I think you lost this" side quests suddenly become some form of gaming performance art? Are raven feathers really worth that much? I dunno, because I don't know what the hell they look like. Did all the bad guys go to the same choreography studio so they know to take the exact same positions nearly every damned time they start a fight? And did they rent out every second story building in Kirkwall? I dunno.

The shame of it is, that DA2 isn't a bad game. It's a good game actually, but it's not a great game and certainly not worthy of the name BioWare. And if it hadn't been rushed, maybe, just maybe it would have been worthy.

Hey I actually enjoyed those "Here, I think you lost this" quests lmao, hearing Hawke make the comments that they do make's me chuckle n adds more fun to the game lol.  And sacrastic/direct Hawke's funny when handing back items lol.  "Look what I found — your reason for living."  Was shocked at first n thought how could u Bioware but then I laughed so hard, it made me want to see what else Hawke would say lmao.  

I LOVE, absolutely LOVE not knowing what's coming out of their mouth, I didn't think I'd enjoy the wheel convo's but turns out I wouldn't want it any other way.  I hate saying this but havin a voiced pc n the way the conversation dialogue is, makes goin back to DAO lacking majorly.
And I know I'm not the only one who hopes they keep things like this in the next DA, it adds more character and more enjoyment to your game, even if some of it's  lol.


Edit:  I know I've said this before but I absolutely adore male Hawke's voice, ggrrrrrrr

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 18 juin 2011 - 01:39 .

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Bioware could probably hand out $20 bills in every game they shipped, and people would still complain about how they were folded. 

People did purchase a game that didn't live up to the expectations that were advertised and discussed by the creators. Even Mike Laidlaw admitted there are issues with the significance of choice and the narrative.

I never put much stock in advertisement. I also don't get upset over trailers for movies making certain things out to be more important than they are. Perhaps that's where we differ. I preordered the game because my friend told me that I had to preorder to get the DLC stuff, so I said 'k, why not?'. I hadn't watched any of the preview stuff. I wasn't a part of the community, nor did I read much about it. I pretty much was completely dark about any of the promotional material.

And I liked the game. Most of my friends and acquaintances who played the game enjoyed it. None of them disliked it. All of them said "I liked it, but I think there were some things that could be improved", but that's pretty common for post-game discussions. This is one of the main reasons why I don't put much stock in the people here who swear that the majority of the players hated the game... probably because they didn't. None of my friends or acquaintances did. I'm sorry if that wasn't your case.

[UnspokenSoul22]

I thought Stanley brought up a great point: don't you think Bioware's staff already know that the game wasn't up to their usual standards? The horse is dead, and some are relentless beating the poor creature. Mistakes were made, of which could have been remedied provided they had a longer deadline. BW can't come out, guns blazing, to say that EA isn't wonderful--they could certainly lose their jobs within the blink of an eye if something like this happened.

The problem doesn't spawn from whether or not the game is played on console or PC; that really has zero relevance.

Instead of calling out the writers or developers on what's now in the past, I'd like to see Bioware not own up to the shortcomings, but step forward, and blow us away with an amazing DLC/Expansion pack. My respect for you guys would skyrocket if they successively did this! It's not as if DA2 was a total loss: not at all. Take this DA episode as a metaphorical stepping stone, something that can carry you to the next pathway.

I also think a lot of fans like seeing old characters reappear; I know I do. It's a nice surprise to see companions you nearly forgot about.

Though I'm not really deeply involved in the conversation, I'm finding enjoyment in reading the various comments.

P.S. I think I'd GIVE Bioware twenty bucks if they'd just tell me what the DLC's going to include! Gahhh. Impatience isn't quite as lovely as his sister patience... ^^

-edit- Voice really brings Hawke to life!

Modifié par UnspokenSoul22, 18 juin 2011 - 01:32 .

[Genly]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Regardless of any disagreements, I am enjoying our discussion here. I hope you guys are as well.

Yes! Regardless of how good this discussion has been, based on this...

"We have some new DLC that's upcoming that's going to try and
address  some of the comments and try and provide the fans with the
things  they're looking for, both the core fans and the new
fans."

We'll have to wait for that to have more concrete information on the future of DA. Oh, but no pressure about it.

I actually didn't know you guys would say anything about trying to address some criticisms already in DLCs. It sounds risky, but since I don't have a whole lot of core issues with DA2, that may actually work out.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And admit it, my Hawke hate is colorful and indispensable to the forums [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

It adds to your character, I'll say that... 

To be fair to Hawke, I think the VO was done very well (even though a peasant sounding like a noble is kind of meh). I didn't mind the dialogue wheel. I liked the dominant personality thing, though sometimes it makes little sense (like with Petrice). And I was not really hoping for the Warden to come back in any meaningful way because I know it's virtually impossible and I accepted that.

So it's not necessarily Hawke himself, but more the world and story he / she is projected in and how they are projected. That's what bothers me quite a bit. And that's why he is my least favorite RPG protagonist I've ever played.

Occasionally I explain why, but granted most of the time, I make it sound like I genuinely hate him (because I get tired of repeating). But at the core it's, I think, criticism within reason (and not without subjectivity of course).
 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 juin 2011 - 01:37 .

[Brockololly]

Stanley Woo wrote...
I certainly understand that folks are sore over some of what we did with Dragon Age II, but I think a lot of the rage is based on confirmation bias. You're already dead set against liking DA2, and feel you've been betrayed by BioWare, of course you're going to take what we say in the most negative way possible. That's why we're having his "argument" in the first place.

I think for people that liked Origins, the question is why did that seed of doubt get planted in the first place? And that ties into having expectations of a franchise or sequel. When some of the early stuff came out on DA2, whether that be the lack of toolset or tactical camera, that kind of stuff surely puts people in a negative POV. And sure, some people will be negative no matter what, but then beyond that I think a big part of the problem with DA2 was the lack of concrete info as to what direction the game was going and then constantly getting surprised by marketing hyperbole not being able to back up their words when one actually played the game.

Stanley Woo wrote...
On a more serious note, consumers also have to bear some of their own responsibility. Nothing that we say, nothing that marketing says, nothing that EA says, absolves the gamer from making responsible, informed puchasing decisions. Part of that responsibility includes admitting that hey, maybe I've made a mistake this time, oh well, next time I'll take that into consideration.

Again though, I think maybe part of the problem with DA2 was how the pre-release stuff was handled that almost made it feel like the consumer was getting swindled. Take the whole Signature Edition shtick- you had to preorder before there was barely any footage of the game out in the public. Well hell, I enjoyed Origins, this is the sequel, I've enjoyed most BioWare games, that would seem like a safe bet.  And how most review sites didn't get a copy of the game to have a review out by release except the sickeningly glowing ones like Escapist or PC Gamer. Its hard to make an informed decision when its like that- maybe except that the smart move is to not preorder in the future. But when some of the marketing information is so disgustingly drenched in hyperbole, exaggeration and PR double talk, its hard to take anything seriously or as having much truth going forward.

Stanley Woo wrote...
Disagreement does not mean that everything's going to be the same next time. On the other hand, disagreement also does not mean that everything will be as you expect it next time. No matter the amount, nature, or frequency of the feedback we receive, ultimately we will be the ones developing the game, we take the risks, and it is our reputation on the line.

Sure. I get that. And thats totally fair.

I think whats at hand (for me at least) is in wanting to know where DA is headed as a franchise- What decisions are you guys going to make? What should I expect? I don't trust the marketing to give a fair picture of what the final product will be like after DA2 and given the changes from DAO to DA2 and how certain aspects of DAO are looked down upon, I 'm wondering if I should give a damn about DA as a franchise or just spend my money elsewhere.

But like you said, that decision is ultimately my choice.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...
Its hard to make an informed decision when its like that- maybe except that the smart move is to not preorder in the future. But when some of the marketing information is so disgustingly drenched in hyperbole, exaggeration and PR double talk, its hard to take anything seriously or as having much truth going forward.

So let's do the smart thing from here on out. I certainly did not think the DLCs we got in the signature edition was worth it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 juin 2011 - 01:39 .

[Marionetten]

The more I hear, the more disinterested I become in this franchise. BioWare marketing working as intended?

[oldmansavage]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Bioware could probably hand out $20 bills in every game they shipped, and people would still complain about how they were folded. 

People did purchase a game that didn't live up to the expectations that were advertised and discussed by the creators. Even Mike Laidlaw admitted there are issues with the significance of choice and the narrative.

I never put much stock in advertisement. I also don't get upset over trailers for movies making certain things out to be more important than they are. Perhaps that's where we differ. I preordered the game because my friend told me that I had to preorder to get the DLC stuff, so I said 'k, why not?'. I hadn't watched any of the preview stuff. I wasn't a part of the community, nor did I read much about it. I pretty much was completely dark about any of the promotional material.

And I liked the game. Most of my friends and acquaintances who played the game enjoyed it. None of them disliked it. All of them said "I liked it, but I think there were some things that could be improved", but that's pretty common for post-game discussions. This is one of the main reasons why I don't put much stock in the people here who swear that the majority of the players hated the game... probably because they didn't. None of my friends or acquaintances did. I'm sorry if that wasn't your case.

While i agree that tthe majority probably did enjoy DA:2 your friends and and acquaintances are of little consequence.  Most of mine did not enjoy the game and generally regard it as trash.

Modifié par oldmansavage, 18 juin 2011 - 01:40 .

[ItsTheTruth]

Brockololly wrote...

I'd say there is very little actual innovation in DA2- maybe from the POV of the DA franchise there is, but its the second game in, so anything new could be deemed "innovative." Its more to the point of DA2 simply taking features from ME and other games that have been done before and (IMO) not even executing them that well.

DA2 was just a rather generic action-RPG that adhered to any of the countless other current video game features popular at the moment. It wasn't innovative in terms of the overall market- it was resoundingly safe and uninspired. And thats the problem IMO- it might have checked off all the boxes in what some focus group wants in a Call of Duty blockbuster game, but the end result was more or less a mess and not what I expect out of BioWare.

Very well said. Even the "innovative" framed narrative has been done to death in video games, movies and TV shows. That reminds me, in Battlestar Galactica it was used and abused, and later the writers admitted that they used it as a crutch to try and fix an otherwise relatively boring episode. Which is exactly what Act I in DA2 is (to say nothing about the rest of the game): sure those random quests are boring, but remember the opening, this is the Champion of Kirkwall!

[Bejos_]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
By "much" I meant those that demand apologies or say that Bioware stole from them, etc, etc, etc., or those who feel insulted by Ray's interview (and yes, I do believe being insulted by said interview is too much), or those who make weird ass analogies about abused housewives...

Yea, I am not a huge fan of that category either.

And admit it, my Hawke hate is colorful and indispensable to the forums

Nice, very smart there, guys. Hm. I've managed to avoid stating whether I am a "huge fan" of yours or not. Thanks for returning the courtesy.

Modifié par Bejos_, 18 juin 2011 - 01:46 .