1248 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

cmessaz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I know, I know. But still I was right {smilie}

I am in the habit of never admiting a man is right. So no you weren't. {smilie} I just....needed to try something new...because I was bored....

I actually also said that many would get bored with Alistair eventually. So I am doubly right!
Not that it's surprising.

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's the same as Loghain / Alsitair debates. It started out epic, then became a nay yay fight, then got epic again, then many Alistair fangirl realized I was right and started loving Loghain . You know?

There are people who didn't like Loghain in the first place? Perish the thought.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's the same as Loghain / Alsitair debates. It started out epic, then became a nay yay fight, then got epic again, then many Alistair fangirl realized I was right and started loving Loghain . You know?

There are people who didn't like Loghain in the first place? Perish the thought.

It's understandable, they didn't meet me afterall.

[cmessaz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I know, I know. But still I was right {smilie}

I am in the habit of never admiting a man is right. So no you weren't. {smilie} I just....needed to try something new...because I was bored....

I actually also said that many would get bored with Alistair eventually. So I am doubly right!
Not that it's surprising.

I uh...crap.

But yeah....peace on BSN! We need a sig.

[Sidney]

To some extent it shouldn't be shocking. You saw a lot of this blow back start with ME2 when the RPG fundamentalists got their undies in an uproar over that game. Inexplicably, DA2's changes on DAO were light years less than what ME2 did to ME1 but I guess when you change a game with elves and plate mail the RPG fundies get a lot more touchy because it hits closer to home.

The thing that is really sad is that a lot of the bogus arguments (companion armor, trash looting, tactcal camera) have gotten more legs than they deserve because the game was tragically flawed by level-design, combat waves and generaly bugginess .

[Gunderic]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Fear eventually gives way to reason. So let us sit down with the developers and reason with them.

First, excellent post.

And I believe the devs should initiate the interaction with the community. By first making less use of vague comments and being more specific.

EDIT: which I don't expect will happen soon. And I understand.

I think I agree. What exactly did they think was so innovative, at least? What are the changes they are planning to keep?

[csfteeeer]

Melca36 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Melca36 wrote...
Oh and my husband....would like some BETTER female characters.  He liked Isabela but hated Merill.

But Isabela's appeal was NOT enough for him to play again.  

They all can't be Morrigan

That's true.

Merrill just makes him feel so uncomfortable!!! 

Morrigan > Merrill

[KnightofPhoenix]

wastelander75 wrote...

Loghain was awesome. If they ever decide to do a prequel and make him the main character, showing his rise from lowly peasant to Ferelden Champion, I'd never stop playing it. Just for him.

Well, maybe. If they can tighten up the story, get rid of the framed narrative, and bring back the Ferelden "sprawl" to explore again, count me in.

That would be an itneresting spin-off. But it would mean that I have to tolerate Maric 24/7 and I...don't think I can make it.

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's understandable, they didn't meet me afterall.

I liked Loghain before it was cool. /sniff

/hipster glasses

[cmessaz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

wastelander75 wrote...

Loghain was awesome. If they ever decide to do a prequel and make him the main character, showing his rise from lowly peasant to Ferelden Champion, I'd never stop playing it. Just for him.

Well, maybe. If they can tighten up the story, get rid of the framed narrative, and bring back the Ferelden "sprawl" to explore again, count me in.

That would be an itneresting spin-off. But it would mean that I have to tolerate Maric 24/7 and I...don't think I can make it.

Even I would have problems with this.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's understandable, they didn't meet me afterall.

I liked Loghain before it was cool. /sniff

/hipster glasses

This thread moves too fast for it, but I would've photoshopped a picture of Loghain with the hipster glasses.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 18 juin 2011 - 03:25 .

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
So it's not necessarily Hawke himself, but more the world and story he / she is projected in and how they are projected. That's what bothers me quite a bit. And that's why he is my least favorite RPG protagonist I've ever played.

I've thought about the 'passive' thing, but to be honest, Hawke is no more or less passive than any other Bioware PC. The big difference is that the ball and chain that you usually have (be the big hero!) isn't actually there. Hawke is being suckered into some other outcome.

And the dislike I sense coming toward Hawke (as a protagonist) is effectively, Hawke didn't do enough (particularly in the interim) to try and stop the templar/mage showdown.

But design-wise, this isn't actually any different from KoTOR, ME, or DA:O.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think anyone is demanding anything. At least most are not.

People want Bioware to admit that (for example) adding PC VO was a bad design choice, and to back away. But for people that really like PC VO (i.e. me) that's essentially asking Bioware to tell some consumers to go to hell.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...
I've thought about the 'passive' thing, but to be honest, Hawke is no more or less passive than any other Bioware PC. The big difference is that the ball and chain that you usually have (be the big hero!) isn't actually there. Hawke is being suckered into some other outcome.

And the dislike I sense coming toward Hawke (as a protagonist) is effectively, Hawke didn't do enough (particularly in the interim) to try and stop the templar/mage showdown.

But design-wise, this isn't actually any different from KoTOR, ME, or DA:O.

I disagree. Design wise, yea, PCs generally had little choice (which I hope is improved). But story wise (or in-game wise), the Warden was much more active. He was rallying an army and he was out to replace Loghain. And it had more choices, so more flexibility to play that Warden and RP why he / she is making those choices. And I thought you had a respectable amount of variety. I actually had 2 playthroughs where I felt it was much more of a rise to power than DA2. And you can also play a Warden that has no interest in power. Was it perfect? Far from it and I do hope Biowre goes on the TW2 route to make choices relevent in the game.

EDIT: and you don't really need the ball and chain of "be the hero" for that. Indeed, the concept of a Rise to power was perfect. But it was non-existant.

Hawke not doing enough (if anything) is a big part of it, yes. But not the only thing. Wave combat and essentially every quest being about killing makes it look like Hawke is just a killing machine for me. I prefer games where I at least have the option to approach a situation via wits, diplomacy or whatever. In ME1 for instance, some missions you can complete without firing a shot (Darius, Kyle..etc). Kotor had a lot of trials, investigations, interrogations...etc. The world not being responsive to his actions as well is a aprt of it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 juin 2011 - 03:36 .

[Thor Rand Al]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

cmessaz wrote...
And no one needs to apologise. But seriously if we all stated our opinions in a contstructive way, both haters and people who liked it, Bioware would probably be more likely to listen.

There comes a point where you can't just keep writing the same big wall of text every time though.


It's the same as Loghain / Alsitair debates. It started out epic, then became a nay yay fight, then got epic again, then many Alistair fangirl realized I was right and started loving Loghain . You know?

Rofl, sorry KOP but that I'll never be lol.  Loghain is just ugh.  Not gettin into him here but I love Alistair but will never be a Loghain lover lol. 

[cmessaz]

mrcrusty wrote...

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's understandable, they didn't meet me afterall.

I liked Loghain before it was cool. /sniff

/hipster glasses

This thread moves too fast for it, but I would've photoshopped a picture of Loghain with the hipster glasses.

DO WANT.

[Sidney]

In Exile wrote...

I've thought about the 'passive' thing, but to be honest, Hawke is no more or less passive than any other Bioware PC. The big difference is that the ball and chain that you usually have (be the big hero!) isn't actually there. Hawke is being suckered into some other outcome.

And the dislike I sense coming toward Hawke (as a protagonist) is effectively, Hawke didn't do enough (particularly in the interim) to try and stop the templar/mage showdown.

But design-wise, this isn't actually any different from KoTOR, ME, or DA:O.

DA2 doesn't have a "classic" ending - Irenicus is stopped, the archdemon is stopped, Sovereign is stopped, Malak is stopped. Notice a theme? DA2 is not about how something stops but about it starts and so it doesn't seem "finished".

You've also got the problem that Hawke can't solve all the problems of the world. The Warden solves everything including finding my lost socks I think. When people say "passive" the problem is that unless you are doing everything and solving everything you're not really "active" to them and it means that only superhero stories have active protangonists by that definition. You almost wonder if superheroes are even enough. Batman doesn't solve the problems of Gotham, he treats symptoms. I have no idea what he does other than sit in the Batcave in between missions but Gotham is obviously still one really messed up place despite his efforts.

[Bejos_]

Sidney wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I've thought about the 'passive' thing, but to be honest, Hawke is no more or less passive than any other Bioware PC. The big difference is that the ball and chain that you usually have (be the big hero!) isn't actually there. Hawke is being suckered into some other outcome.

And the dislike I sense coming toward Hawke (as a protagonist) is effectively, Hawke didn't do enough (particularly in the interim) to try and stop the templar/mage showdown.

But design-wise, this isn't actually any different from KoTOR, ME, or DA:O.

DA2 doesn't have a "classic" ending - Irenicus is stopped, the archdemon is stopped, Sovereign is stopped, Malak is stopped. Notice a theme? DA2 is not about how something stops but about it starts and so it doesn't seem "finished".

You've also got the problem that Hawke can't solve all the problems of the world. The Warden solves everything including finding my lost socks I think. When people say "passive" the problem is that unless you are doing everything and solving everything you're not really "active" to them and it means that only superhero stories have active protangonists by that definition. You almost wonder if superheroes are even enough. Batman doesn't solve the problems of Gotham, he treats symptoms. I have no idea what he does other than sit in the Batcave in between missions but Gotham is obviously still one really messed up place despite his efforts.

You can tell me if I'm butting in where I'm not wanted, but I'll point out that many people complained (rightly so) that the most interesting parts of Hawke's story happened off screen. That first year in Kirkwall? We didn't get to experience any of it. The time skips were handled inexpertly because, when we finally regain control of our character, he knows so much more about the world than we do.
"Hey, Hawke," says Companion/NPC #958, "Remember that time we did that totally fun thing off screen? Yeah, those were good times!"
What? Why did you TELL and not SHOW, and why would you SHOW and not let us PLAY it?
Seriously, the writing in that game ... It boggles why they decided to let you play some parts instead of others.

Oh wait, no, it doesn't. D. L. C.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I disagree. Design wise, yea, PCs generally had little choice (which I hope is improved). But story wise (or in-game wise), the Warden was much more active. He was rallying an army and he was out to replace Loghain.

Well, no, you feel that the Warden was more active. That's just you buying into the plot.

Here is what the Warden did:

Beg for soldiers against the Blight because "pretty please I have a treaty!". You don't get to decide to get allies. Flemeth and Alistair tell you to suck it and collect exactly those allies you have treaties for. You obey.

Then, you get to be execute multiple errands to collect the army and have to allow the Ruler of Ferelden + Eamon + Riordan to come up with the plan and command the army. In fact, you can't even object to the epic stupid plan that is splitting up your party from Riordan.

You get to beg Eamon to do something about Loghain. Then you get to follow orders from Eamon and you have to pick between Anora and Alistair as ruler.

Here's what Hawke did:

Beg Bartran to let him go on the expedition.

Run errands for the Viscount and end up in a showdown that leads to Hawke being champion.

Run errands for the mages/templars before being forced to act as kingmaker.

You find this an active role because you bought into the plot. But that's all it takes in DA2. If you don't look at Hawke as someone who cares even a bit about the templar/mage conflict, but instead someone who's entirely invested in something else, Hawke can be just as active as the Warden.

I found the Warden incredibly passive because I was forced to try and beg for scraps to stop a single blight like had happened in the past, instead of driving to the source of all blights and trying to stop each forever. You see the plot as epic; I see it as the biggest waste of time, essentially getting everything to be as close to identical as the start of the game as possible.

Feeling a sense of 'active' protagonist has everything to do with whether or not you buy into DA:O.

And it had more choices, so more flexibility to play that Warden and RP why he / she is making those choices. And I thought you had a respectable amount of variety. I actually had 2 playthroughs where I felt it was much more of a rise to power than DA2. WAs it perfect? Far from it and I do hope Biowre goes on the TW2 route to make choices relevent in the game.

DA2 had very many choices were you can try and flesh out why Hawke is making the choice. In fact, DA2 follows right up on DA:O's "show no consequences" approach to RP by making the outcome irrelevant to your choice, and letting you fully determine why you do something (Act of Mercy being a great example, but the Fenryiel quest being a good one too).

I never had a playthrough in DA:O that felt like a rise to power, but I had 2 that felt like a "go screw yourself, you can't have power" when my Dwarf Noble wasn't allowed to declare herself Queen and my Cousland couldn't declare himself king.

Hawke not doing enough (if anything) is a big part of it, yes. But not the only thing. Wave combat and essentially every quest being about killing makes it look like Hawke is just a killing machine for me. I prefer games where I at least have the option to approach a situation via wits, diplomacy or whatever. In ME1 for instance, some missions you can complete without firing a shot (Darius, Kyle..etc). Kotor had a lot of trials, investigations, interrogations...etc. The world not being responsive to his actions as well.

The Warden was the epitome of genocide against an entire race. The job description of a Grey Warden was "eliminate all darkspawn".

And DA2 did have some no combat quests. Bribing for Aethenril is one of them. So is the Werewolf quest (if you have the right personality). I agree with you that DA2 absolutely needed less combat quests, but suggesting the unholy genocide machine that was the Warden (I had something like 1000 personal kills in DA:O) didn't wade through combat encounter to combat encounter is not accurate.

Modifié par In Exile, 18 juin 2011 - 03:47 .

[Bejos_]

Hm. I actually can't recall who said it. I know one of them was a vendor-- a woman that sells ... something. Potions, I think. I can see adventures there.

But that's small stuff compared to the 1- and 3-year gaps. It just doesn't make sense to have such big time skips-- especially when your character doesn't seem to do anything during them. Is my Hawke really such a lazy potato? Get off your arse, buddy!

[In Exile]

Bejos_ wrote...
But that's small stuff compared to the 1- and 3-year gaps. It just doesn't make sense to have such big time skips-- especially when your character doesn't seem to do anything during them. Is my Hawke really such a lazy potato? Get off your arse, buddy!

I think that was my favourite part of DA2. Not being force to give a **** for once was great. I don't like to RP people that run to be the hero. That I could imagine my Hawke messing around with Isabella in hightown buying hats while trying to bully a stake in the Hanged Man, generally disintersted in politics, was great.