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Muzyka: Dragon Age 2 "one of the most polarising launches we've had"


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#826
Persephone

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Er...no. (And I hated Gorim) Kirkwall had people chatting about the Hero of Ferelden, the Champion, the Qunari, the mages (Tranquil solution etc.) , inviting each other for drinks at the Hanged Man, guards greeting Aveline, sailors chatting up Izzy, elves talking up Merrill etc.


And that's dead when you comapre it to Flotsam. Actually scratch that. It's dead when you comapre it to Vizima.
No wait, scratch that. It's dead when you compare it to the bloody outskirts or murky waters.


Except I do not. And more TW2 propaganda won't convince me either.


Yea being a propaganda agent is what I do for a living. It pays well.

And I do compare, because as a customer, I have to compare between the products I am buying or potentially buying. If you don't, good for you.


Don't put words in my mouth, dearest KOP. You know I don't take that well.

To me, DA is DA. TW is TW. I enjoy both for different reasons. The whole "Brunettes are hotter than Blondes" argument won't fly with me. (And I am a brunette!) :D

#827
Master Shiori

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Er...no. (And I hated Gorim) Kirkwall had people chatting about the Hero of Ferelden, the Champion, the Qunari, the mages (Tranquil solution etc.) , inviting each other for drinks at the Hanged Man, guards greeting Aveline, sailors chatting up Izzy, elves talking up Merrill etc.


And that's dead when you compare it to Flotsam. Actually scratch that. It's dead when you compare it to Vizima.
No wait, scratch that. It's dead when you compare it to the bloody outskirts or murky waters.


Sorry but no. You have a point about Vizima (can't comment on Flotsam since I haven't played TW2), but saying that the Outskirts or Murky Waters was better?!

Sorry, no freaking way..

#828
Melca36

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Persephone wrote...

Melca36 wrote...



Persephone wrote...
People obviously love dead cities, just look at Denerim. Loved it so much in fact they made MODS to make it look somewhat alive! :devil:



You know I respect your opinion so I really would like to know how these lovely lifeless individuals add life to city?


And that's why I use texture Mods, my dear. Again, do I think improvements would be neat? Yes. But I'm tired of the extremes.

Want a DEAD enviroment? 

"Belief and Betrayal" ........try that game. It's a major Adventure title......or passing as such.



You know I don't hate the game but saying its a city full of life is exaggerating.  I will agree about the atmosphere of the Hanged Man.  That tavern has MORE life and ambience than sections of the city. :wizard:

#829
Sidney

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Aaleel wrote...
The best area they did in either game was Ostagar.  You had the mages practicing under the watch of the templars, the archers practicing.  The captian telling his men that darkspawn die like anything else.  The sister preaching.  I remember walking across the bridge after talking to Duncan with all the flags blowing in the wind.  There was stuff going on all around you.


Yeah, Lothering was pretty good too in terms of life. Really they're not awful on smaller villages and spaces but they just can't do big urban spaces. I mean Orzammar is one street in total for example. Calling it a "street" is a disservice too because there's nothing about any streets in Kirwall, Denerim or Orzammar that looks like any streets you know from any era. You look at cities done "right" in AC or even lower rent titles like Crackdown and you see how far off in urban design Bioware is.

#830
KnightofPhoenix

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Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yea being a propaganda agent is what I do for a living. It pays well.

And I do compare, because as a customer, I have to compare between the products I am buying or potentially buying. If you don't, good for you.


Don't put words in my mouth, dearest KOP. You know I don't take that well.

To me, DA is DA. TW is TW. I enjoy both for different reasons. The whole "Brunettes are hotter than Blondes" argument won't fly with me. (And I am a brunette!) :D


You said I am spouting propaganda. So I don't know how else to take that.

For me, DA is DA, and TW is TW too. But both are RPGs. And as a customer, I need to compare to see which is worth my money more. And which I like more. But that's just me.

And no, I don't decide that solely based on environments and cities beign alive.

And yea, I think brunettes are than blondes personally :D

#831
csfteeeer

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Persephone wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So CDPR made fun of TW2 (DAII you mean?) then a guy on metacrtic who works for Bioware gave TW2 a 0 score.

Yeah.


Eh?

Proof?


Bioware_Intern, DavidGaider and Mike_Faillaw2 on Metacritic gave it a 0. It's totally legit.


Ah, I see. Of course, that is ENTIRELY legit. :lol:

Couldn't' possibly be because they didn't like the game? :P


Well, TW2 did not deserve a 0. Neither did DAII.

Also, those "Bioware" 0s only resulted in a FLOOD of 10s for TW2 and an outraged FLOOD of 0s for DAII. Which was the desired result, I am sure.


DA2 already had a FLOOD of 0s before TW2 came, it's just that number has increased now.

#832
Aaleel

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Sidney wrote...

Aaleel wrote...
The best area they did in either game was Ostagar.  You had the mages practicing under the watch of the templars, the archers practicing.  The captian telling his men that darkspawn die like anything else.  The sister preaching.  I remember walking across the bridge after talking to Duncan with all the flags blowing in the wind.  There was stuff going on all around you.


Yeah, Lothering was pretty good too in terms of life. Really they're not awful on smaller villages and spaces but they just can't do big urban spaces. I mean Orzammar is one street in total for example. Calling it a "street" is a disservice too because there's nothing about any streets in Kirwall, Denerim or Orzammar that looks like any streets you know from any era. You look at cities done "right" in AC or even lower rent titles like Crackdown and you see how far off in urban design Bioware is.


Biggest problem with Bioware cities is the lack of free standing buildings that make alleys and streets. Kirkwall for example was just a bunch of open courtyards, so to me it felt like a fortress and not a city.

#833
DiabolicallyRandom

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 I have had several weeks now since finishing my first playthrough to let things sink in. At first, I was downright appalled at what I was experiencing. After letting everything settle in, I realize that a certain part of it was the shock factor, if you can call it that. Looking back now, with a calmer outlook and cooler head, I can see that it wasn't a miserable peice of trash. It was a "good" game. However, all said, I feel DA2 fell far short of the epic precedent set by origins. Even if you strip away all the trappings of interface, mechanics, questionable (by some) artistic changes, etc - the core of the came just did not have that same "epic" feel that origins did. 
Stanley, In one of your posts, you made comment that, perhaps we should have not purchased, because, well, it wasn't for us. I would counter that with the fact that, first of all, this modern industry pushes pre-ordering on us - if we don't pre-order, we end up getting things removed from the game. You can call them bonus's, but I won't, so that is something we will have to disagree on - but I thing we can agree that, from a marketing perspective, a lot of pressure is being presented to preorder.

As a further example to counter that point - If I am reading a series of books (take "game of thrones series" for example) I would not simply skip book 2 if it received bad reviews (assuming i didnt pre-order). So the notion that maybe hardcore fans of DA:O who didnt want change shouldnt have purchased DAII is a bit of a silly one. Maybe if all we cared about was the gameplay that might make sense, but, as clearly indicated by the ending of the game (or lack thereof), the stories are certainly connected. If we didn't buy II, but then bought III because it had better reviews, we would be left with a gaping hole in the narrative.

Further, the changes shown and revealed before the game was actually released might have been acceptable to some (compared to origins) however, when the game was actually experienced, things were even more drastically changed.

I know that as a developer/president/whatever, a Bioware rep cannot be expected to bash their own product. Hell, I don't think it needs bashing at all. I think the crux of the issue, the discontent that I am feeling lies with the framing of responses and comments that are being made in interviews. While we seem to have a certain understanding here on these forums, now months after release, it seems like the comments being made in interviews lack a certain... tact... a certain modicum of respect for fans.
I am not seething with dissappointment as I was at first. I have calmed, and have been able to realize, retrospectively, that there *were* some cool changes with DAII. But I cant help but get the feeling that, the answers being given keep putting the .. blame? i dont think its the right word... I can't help but feeling like we are being told that it's our fault that we were unhappy with DAII. Yes, some mistakes/missteps have been admitted... but it still feels like every time it comes up in an interview, the boilerplate response is that DA:O fans didn't like the INNOVATION in DAII.

And it is that, and only that insinuation that keeps aggravating the heck out of me. We could debate all year long wether innovation is the right word to even use, but that would be pointless. There WAS some geniune changes in DAII - some geniune changes for the better even. But to make the suggestion that, well, the CORE fans of DA:O are, essentially, being "stubborn" to the changes, or don't like them is quite simply a bit asinine.

I knew going into DAII there would be alot of changes. I had armored myself against what some might refer to as "consolization" - I knew there might be less depth to character creation. What I didn't expect was a product that felt unfinished. Retrospectively, DAII really makes me feel like there was a grand vision at play, but that the budget and development time was cut in half a quarter of the way through. Obviously, we consumers do not have information about the truth of it all, but from all outword appearances, that is what it feels like.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for those who worked on the game, and even more so for those who are willing to brave these forums and deal with the seething masses. But I am quickly and ever more rapidly losing more and more respect for those who are acting as the public mouthpieces in published interviews. 

Time and again I feel like responses put the weight of complaints with the complainer - which I find odd, generally. Video games seem to be one of the only industries that work in this fashion. If I pay 60 dollars for a jacket, and the next day I wear it, one of the seems pops open for no apparent reason, I can return that jacket to the store and purchas elsewhere. Maybe if we could return our copy of DAII, then things might be different. However when one pays 60 dollars for a game, they tend to expect a certain level of service. That is why gamers tend to be so loyal to developers - because they come to expect that level of quality and service.

I am not sure what I want from bioware in regards to DAII. I can't say for sure what would make me a happy consumer at this point. I would hope, in my heart of hearts, that Bioware would end up doing the "Right Thing ™" and fixing what is generally agreed upon as "missteps" by both parties in a patch. But from the sounds of things, both here on the forums, and in the interviews, any fixes that are other than "technical" or "balance" in nature (eg game crashes, combat balance) are going to be provided via DLC. I would love to be wrong on this, but everything I know about BioWare as it is now under its parent co, tells me that anything called "DLC" will cost me money.

And quite frankly, I am unwilling to pay for what I feel should be fixed in the core game. There is another RPG developer who currently does just what I describe - fixes things for free - and I personally feel that is a model that should be subscribed to by all development houses. I know it is a different world than it was 15 years ago - the financials are completely different. But I still think that in the end, a happy customer is a repeat customer. You don't build success by making your customers unhappy (regardless of the cause).

I only hope that, going forward, my concerns and fears end up being unfounded. I hope that, like Stanley Woo, and John Epler, who are truly two of the most patient people I think I have encountered on these forums, the rest of Bioware hold their fans in high regard, and truly, truly takes them seriously. And I hope that Bioware is able to dedicate the resources to the dragon age franchise going forward that it truly deserves. :unsure:

:?

#834
Persephone

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Melca36 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Melca36 wrote...



Persephone wrote...
People obviously love dead cities, just look at Denerim. Loved it so much in fact they made MODS to make it look somewhat alive! :devil:



You know I respect your opinion so I really would like to know how these lovely lifeless individuals add life to city?


And that's why I use texture Mods, my dear. Again, do I think improvements would be neat? Yes. But I'm tired of the extremes.

Want a DEAD enviroment? 

"Belief and Betrayal" ........try that game. It's a major Adventure title......or passing as such.



You know I don't hate the game but saying its a city full of life is exaggerating.  I will agree about the atmosphere of the Hanged Man.  That tavern has MORE life and ambience than sections of the city. :wizard:


I didn't say it's a city full of life. More could CERTAINLY have been done to make it so. I.E. changes between the year gaps. More people to talk to (As it opening a dialogue window). Patrols of guards & Templars. IMHO the most vibrant place was the Gallows and of course The Hanged Man, while Viscount's Keep was a letdown IMHO. (And that place should have been a BEE HIVE!)

#835
KnightofPhoenix

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Master Shiori wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Er...no. (And I hated Gorim) Kirkwall had people chatting about the Hero of Ferelden, the Champion, the Qunari, the mages (Tranquil solution etc.) , inviting each other for drinks at the Hanged Man, guards greeting Aveline, sailors chatting up Izzy, elves talking up Merrill etc.


And that's dead when you compare it to Flotsam. Actually scratch that. It's dead when you compare it to Vizima.
No wait, scratch that. It's dead when you compare it to the bloody outskirts or murky waters.


Sorry but no. You have a point about Vizima (can't comment on Flotsam since I haven't played TW2), but saying that the Outskirts or Murky Waters was better?!

Sorry, no freaking way..


Yes, absolutely. In those places, you see people doing something. Walking around, cleaning clothes, cleaning the floor, fishing, talking (sometimes they mention Jacque). Chickens walking around, ducks, rabbits, squirells, birds, dogs. When it rains, people hide under roofs and complain.

So sorry, but yes.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 juin 2011 - 07:14 .


#836
Persephone

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yea being a propaganda agent is what I do for a living. It pays well.

And I do compare, because as a customer, I have to compare between the products I am buying or potentially buying. If you don't, good for you.


Don't put words in my mouth, dearest KOP. You know I don't take that well.

To me, DA is DA. TW is TW. I enjoy both for different reasons. The whole "Brunettes are hotter than Blondes" argument won't fly with me. (And I am a brunette!) :D


You said I am spouting propaganda. So I don't know how else to take that.


Where did I use the word spout? (I'd never insult you like that) I merely said that TW2 propaganda will not convince me.

I understand what you mean and where you are coming from. Will you grant me the same courtesy?

#837
Persephone

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csfteeeer wrote...

Persephone wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So CDPR made fun of TW2 (DAII you mean?) then a guy on metacrtic who works for Bioware gave TW2 a 0 score.

Yeah.


Eh?

Proof?


Bioware_Intern, DavidGaider and Mike_Faillaw2 on Metacritic gave it a 0. It's totally legit.


Ah, I see. Of course, that is ENTIRELY legit. :lol:

Couldn't' possibly be because they didn't like the game? :P


Well, TW2 did not deserve a 0. Neither did DAII.

Also, those "Bioware" 0s only resulted in a FLOOD of 10s for TW2 and an outraged FLOOD of 0s for DAII. Which was the desired result, I am sure.


DA2 already had a FLOOD of 0s before TW2 came, it's just that number has increased now.


Yes. What classy thing to do, eh? <_<

#838
Melca36

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Persephone wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Melca36 wrote...



Persephone wrote...
People obviously love dead cities, just look at Denerim. Loved it so much in fact they made MODS to make it look somewhat alive! :devil:



You know I respect your opinion so I really would like to know how these lovely lifeless individuals add life to city?


And that's why I use texture Mods, my dear. Again, do I think improvements would be neat? Yes. But I'm tired of the extremes.

Want a DEAD enviroment? 

"Belief and Betrayal" ........try that game. It's a major Adventure title......or passing as such.



You know I don't hate the game but saying its a city full of life is exaggerating.  I will agree about the atmosphere of the Hanged Man.  That tavern has MORE life and ambience than sections of the city. :wizard:


I didn't say it's a city full of life. More could CERTAINLY have been done to make it so. I.E. changes between the year gaps. More people to talk to (As it opening a dialogue window). Patrols of guards & Templars. IMHO the most vibrant place was the Gallows and of course The Hanged Man, while Viscount's Keep was a letdown IMHO. (And that place should have been a BEE HIVE!)


Something we can agree on! :wizard:

My issue with the Viscount's Keep was the same guy who asks how Long does he have to wait and he's still there during Act 3. :lol:

#839
KnightofPhoenix

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Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yea being a propaganda agent is what I do for a living. It pays well.

And I do compare, because as a customer, I have to compare between the products I am buying or potentially buying. If you don't, good for you.


Don't put words in my mouth, dearest KOP. You know I don't take that well.

To me, DA is DA. TW is TW. I enjoy both for different reasons. The whole "Brunettes are hotter than Blondes" argument won't fly with me. (And I am a brunette!) :D


You said I am spouting propaganda. So I don't know how else to take that.


Where did I use the word spout? (I'd never insult you like that) I merely said that TW2 propaganda will not convince me.

I understand what you mean and where you are coming from. Will you grant me the same courtesy?


So you're saying that I am saying propaganda. It's the same as spout for me.

I will if you wouldnt' dismiss what I am saying as propaganda.

#840
alex90c

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'Propaganda' means what KoP is saying would be deliberately misleading to try and convince you of his viewpoint, all i've seen is him saying "environments in TW2 were more lively, here are examples X, Y and Z" which isn't misleading at all.

#841
Persephone

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yea being a propaganda agent is what I do for a living. It pays well.

And I do compare, because as a customer, I have to compare between the products I am buying or potentially buying. If you don't, good for you.


Don't put words in my mouth, dearest KOP. You know I don't take that well.

To me, DA is DA. TW is TW. I enjoy both for different reasons. The whole "Brunettes are hotter than Blondes" argument won't fly with me. (And I am a brunette!) :D


You said I am spouting propaganda. So I don't know how else to take that.


Where did I use the word spout? (I'd never insult you like that) I merely said that TW2 propaganda will not convince me.

I understand what you mean and where you are coming from. Will you grant me the same courtesy?


So you're saying that I am saying propaganda. It's the same as spout for me.

I will if you wouldnt' dismiss what I am saying as propaganda.


Seems that the word propaganda is the catalyst here. It does have a negative connotation. (Though it wasn't meant as such) How about more TW2 praise won't convince me? Better?

#842
Eski.Moe

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Melca36 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Melca36 wrote...



Persephone wrote...
People obviously love dead cities, just look at Denerim. Loved it so much in fact they made MODS to make it look somewhat alive! :devil:



You know I respect your opinion so I really would like to know how these lovely lifeless individuals add life to city?


And that's why I use texture Mods, my dear. Again, do I think improvements would be neat? Yes. But I'm tired of the extremes.

Want a DEAD enviroment? 

"Belief and Betrayal" ........try that game. It's a major Adventure title......or passing as such.



You know I don't hate the game but saying its a city full of life is exaggerating.  I will agree about the atmosphere of the Hanged Man.  That tavern has MORE life and ambience than sections of the city. :wizard:


I didn't say it's a city full of life. More could CERTAINLY have been done to make it so. I.E. changes between the year gaps. More people to talk to (As it opening a dialogue window). Patrols of guards & Templars. IMHO the most vibrant place was the Gallows and of course The Hanged Man, while Viscount's Keep was a letdown IMHO. (And that place should have been a BEE HIVE!)


Something we can agree on! :wizard:

My issue with the Viscount's Keep was the same guy who asks how Long does he have to wait and he's still there during Act 3. :lol:

He has it even worse than the guy outside of Afterlife.

#843
KnightofPhoenix

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Persephone wrote...
Seems that the word propaganda is the catalyst here. It does have a negative connotation. (Though it wasn't meant as such) How about more TW2 praise won't convince me? Better?


Thanks.

#844
Persephone

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Melca36 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Melca36 wrote...



Persephone wrote...
People obviously love dead cities, just look at Denerim. Loved it so much in fact they made MODS to make it look somewhat alive! :devil:



You know I respect your opinion so I really would like to know how these lovely lifeless individuals add life to city?


And that's why I use texture Mods, my dear. Again, do I think improvements would be neat? Yes. But I'm tired of the extremes.

Want a DEAD enviroment? 

"Belief and Betrayal" ........try that game. It's a major Adventure title......or passing as such.



You know I don't hate the game but saying its a city full of life is exaggerating.  I will agree about the atmosphere of the Hanged Man.  That tavern has MORE life and ambience than sections of the city. :wizard:


I didn't say it's a city full of life. More could CERTAINLY have been done to make it so. I.E. changes between the year gaps. More people to talk to (As it opening a dialogue window). Patrols of guards & Templars. IMHO the most vibrant place was the Gallows and of course The Hanged Man, while Viscount's Keep was a letdown IMHO. (And that place should have been a BEE HIVE!)


Something we can agree on! :wizard:

My issue with the Viscount's Keep was the same guy who asks how Long does he have to wait and he's still there during Act 3. :lol:


Too true. There could have been quests related to politics & intrigue.... After Act II began, I wanted to question the people there about the vanished *Spoiler*.

Things like that would have been awesome.

#845
Persephone

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Seems that the word propaganda is the catalyst here. It does have a negative connotation. (Though it wasn't meant as such) How about more TW2 praise won't convince me? Better?


Thanks.


Welcome, old friend. Most welcome.:happy:

#846
Archaven

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I wonder why you guys are arguing amongst each other.. Just accept it that DA2 isn't great because it was rushed. Plain and simple.

#847
Jon Jern_

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From what I've seen from all these games coming out, it takes more guts to STICK TO A FORMULA (Portal 2) than to "derp herp call of duty players you want to play a 30 hour game?" (DA2)

#848
Persephone

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Archaven wrote...

I wonder why you guys are arguing amongst each other.. Just accept it that DA2 isn't great because it was rushed. Plain and simple.


No.

I prefer my own opinion over following someone else's.:devil:

#849
hoorayforicecream

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Master Shiori wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Er...no. (And I hated Gorim) Kirkwall had people chatting about the Hero of Ferelden, the Champion, the Qunari, the mages (Tranquil solution etc.) , inviting each other for drinks at the Hanged Man, guards greeting Aveline, sailors chatting up Izzy, elves talking up Merrill etc.


And that's dead when you compare it to Flotsam. Actually scratch that. It's dead when you compare it to Vizima.
No wait, scratch that. It's dead when you compare it to the bloody outskirts or murky waters.


Sorry but no. You have a point about Vizima (can't comment on Flotsam since I haven't played TW2), but saying that the Outskirts or Murky Waters was better?!

Sorry, no freaking way..


I played the witcher 2, but not 1... and the feeling I got from Flotsam was that it was a bustling town... at first. But the longer I spent there, the more it went off the rails. Part of it was the bug with meditation... if you meditate to pass time, the NPCs in the immediate vicinity also meditate, so it completely throws off the clock. But the other thing that bothered me was that the NPCs had their own routines, including going to bed, but often had only randomized responses.

When Geralt was crawling around houses looking for loot at night, he found people in bed, sleeping. Clicking on them, they would shout "Welcome!". If they were actually conversable, they would pop from sleep to standing and be perfectly happy that Geralt decided to chat with them at 3 in the morning while they were asleep. It was like an uncanny valley effect - they behave as I expect them to, except not when I interact with them, and that totally broke immersion in a big way.

So yeah, the town of Flotsam wasn't dead per se, but it was filled with bizarre alien pod people instead.

#850
Persephone

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Jon Jern wrote...

 than to "derp herp call of duty players you want to play a 30 hour game?" (DA2)


Just TOO kind of you.

Really.<_<