[quote]In Exile wrote...
The best analogy I can give for the Warden is this: the Warden was a choice algorithm. The options were laid out bare, and the Warden picked A or B (and sometimes C) . But with almost no exception (the werewolves are one) the Warden didn't actually come up with these options. They were presented.
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I agree. I wish there was a game where the PC can rally everyone who follows him, and then come up with ideas of his own and listen to other ssuggestions. And then take a course of action.
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Laziness? Greed? Disinterest?
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And is that interesting to play? Not for me.
And if that's the direction the DA team is going, I need to know so that I know not to buy their games.
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It's the same as in DA2. It's just that you're forced to care about different things.
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At least you're forced to care about something that's important.
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Yes, you're right. I fired up DA:O. But these are no different than the minor betrayals Hawke can pull off. The
scope of DA:O is different, but the execution is the same.
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But Hawke's minor betrayals are not really to change the status quo, at least on a somewhat significant level. What the Warden can do can potentially change the statuys quo, even if it's a minor change (in the larger scheme of things). And on top of that, DA:o had choice that were small scope. Like helping the casteless woman with her child, where you have 3 options.
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Anora comes up with it first.
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Not in the Landsmeet
And she says it would be preferrable in Eamon's estate but she doesn't really demand it. She prefers it.
In any case, there are other examples where the Warden does something ou of his own design. Few moments, but they were there.
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Yes. In the same way that I could be a mage who was forced by Irving into betraying a fellow mage, kidnapped by Duncan, threatend with immediate execution if I didn't drink concentrated magical poison, and then told in clear terms by an ancient abomination and a whinny templar to go and save Ferelden. I could never have wanted to be a Warden (in fact, the Origins give you an excellent reason to
never want to be a Warden) but the game tells you to stuff it.
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I'll definifetly agree that the mage origin was done poorly.
Yes, both games force you to care aobuit something. But in DA2 it forces you not to care about the most important thing, and gives nothing in return. You can't invite Gamlen to live with you. You can't manage your business. You can't hunt Tal Vashoith. So what were we doing?
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If you say those choices are reactive, then most of the choices of the Warden are reactive. The mages & templars one is absolutely reactive - you go to get
mage allies in your treaty, and then you react to the situation.
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Yea that was is reactive. Some are proactive, like werewolves, boons, chancellor / prince consort...etc.
Not many, but they were there.
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But it's not different ''in the game'' because ''in the game'' the ideas are not yours. They're every other characters
but the Warden's. It's actually worse if you look at it that way, because looking at it at level of design you can hand-wave some of the pasivity as being a result of the lack of VO and the cinematic design.
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In the game, the character is assumed to agree. Not because he is ordered to do it.
And again, it offers you chances, albeit small, to have your own ideas.
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These are all minor quests. I agree with you here. But none of these are the
main quest of the game, which is what you're objecting to. Act III's plot isn't the unique human noble or female character epilogue.
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The Landsmeet is the main quest in the game or part of it.
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These aren't comparable, because they're nothing more than Hawke's pro-active role in shaping the companions. No one tells Hawke to support Merril (or to dissuade her), to encourage or argue with Anders and Fenris in their quests...
Hawke is perfectly pro-active and a busy-body in the lives of the companions.
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And the Warden does that, and more. The companions are not supposed to be in lieu of the main plot.
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But both you and I can agree that Hawke is passive because the main conflict of Act III has Hawke sitting on his hands. Well, that's just how DA:O handles it with the Warden. Absolutely
nothing that you do, defeating the archdemon wise, is your own idea beside the Werewolves.
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No, because even assuming that the Warden doesn't come up with any ideas of his own, he is still acting. Not sitting on his hands and not doing anything for 3 years.
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That's getting into the level of picking LI's and looking at friendship rivalry scores and saying the endgame of Act III has lots of different choices because your companions can betray you.
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Origins had them as well, and more. So again, DA:O provided more, even if the design is mostly the same.
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I don't consider them cases of Hawke being active at all. I'm saying you have to consider them as examples of being active if you think DA:O had an active protagonist. And then you're forced into saying that the Warden was
more active than Hawke, but you can't say that Hawke was passive anymore.
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I didn't say Hawke was passive, except for the 3 years thing (if I implied otherwise, then I stand corrected). I usually say he was too reactive when he is acting (and superficially at that).
And yes, the Warden too was reactive, but I felt there were more moments of pro-activity.
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But you can't point out how incredibly stupid that plan is, and how much better it would be to take your entire party (Riordan included) with you to fight the archdemon. You can't point out that using fireballs would be a better plan than death by launching Riordan from the tower to defeat the archdemon.
Hell, you can't point out how stupid it is to actually go try and save Denerim.
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I know, not claiming otherwise. But it gives you some space. But like I said, the post Landmseet phase did not convey the feeling that you were a commander well.
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That's just nitpicking. You don't set up the plan. You don't decide where to attack Denerim from. You can't come up with the anti-archdemon strategy. You don't actually asign the troops to do any other task than play bodyguard.
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No it's not. It's choices available to you. They were not enough, but they were there.
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Not at all. Like I said: this is like me countering with Hawke not having to care about the magetemplar conflcit - it's just a cop-out.
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You can say that, and I'll say what did Hawke do instead? In the game.
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The Warden was
never pro-active on a scale that you say Hawke should have been.
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I know he wasn't and I never claimed he was. I am saying he was more proactive and generally more active.
And the equivalent with Hawke don't work because the Warden has them too, when it comes to companions (hardening, deciding to help them or not. Heck, even allowing them to join you).
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The only pro-active hero Bioware's ever designed is Shepard, and they decided to give that up in ME2 by making Shepard a lackey of the Illusive Man.
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I agree, I think ME1 probably had the strongest plot.
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If, after Act III, you had an extra DLC scene where Hawke can pick one of 16 different paths (help mages, betray mages to templars, flee to Ferelden, betray templars, become Viscount, try to rally the marches against the chantry, etc.) and then an epilogue screen, would you suddenly say that Hawke
became an active protagonist?
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Yes, except I wouldn't pay for it. If they wanted to do that, then it should have been in the game.
Is it the kind I want? No. But he would have been more active yes.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 juin 2011 - 08:41 .
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